Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment

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Wow, it's amazing what you can actually pull out of a liberal when they put their guards down, i.e. another liberal putting forth the idea and not the "dumb, hick gun lover."

I didn't read the entire article, but wow, if the majority of liberals really feel that way, then we really need to attack the blankety-blank media for yet another scare mongering tactic. Good article.
 
H088: I know plenty of pro gun Democrats but they seem largely ignored by the people who control the party.
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Bingo!! I don’t often associate with the Democrat/liberal element as we tend not to travel in the same circles. However, when encountered it is surprising how many actually do support the 2nd Amendment.
 
An interesting take on the split in Democratic ranks over the gun issue was done by Dave Kopel.

It appears that Obama has a real problem with gun owners in the Democratic party... some excerpts:

A Tuesday loss in Indiana would have ended the race. But she eked out a 2% victory by carrying the votes of gun-owning households (who made up half of the electorate) in a 22% landslide. In Pennsylvania, her ten-point win brought in ten million dollars of cash that she needed to keep going. Her 25% margin in gun-owning households of the Keystone State (a third of the electorate) turned what would have been a close contest into a runaway.

In North Carolina, she was crushed by Obama. Yet among gun-owning households, she actually won the state by 3%, her 15 point loss being attributable to Obama’s margin in the non-gun households.
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http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/DaveKopel/2008/05/08/gun_owners_for_hillary?page=1

Considering the fact that Obama sat on the board of the Joyce Foundation and also considering his record in Illinois, this is really no surprise.

I could say more, but I am afraid that I would incur the wrath of our esteemed, highly intelligent and perceptive mods, who might consider it a drift from legal into political.:uhoh:
 
I'm more or less in line with H088, I consider my self liberal mostly, but I do have some beliefs that are seen as conservative. But who isn’t a mixture really?

That was an interesting read, HOWEVER Angry Mouse was also some what inaccurate (which is his 1st A right :) ) about some of his examples he gave.

Such as.......

No. 4: It's not like you can use it anyway.

Tell that to the USSR, held at bay for about six years by pissed off Afghanis with WWI rifles.

Tell that to the Iraqi "insurgents" who are putting up a pretty good fight against our military might with fairly primitive weapons.
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Not exactly what happened with the Afghanis nor what is happening in Iraqi. Both have gotten some pretty high tech help.

Over all though, A.G. makes a lot of good points.
 
I'm a Democrat, and I think it would be better to use the word "leftist" for the kind of thinking that is hostile to guns. In my experience a big change occurred between 1963 and 1968 due to the several high profile assasinations during that time, and the civil unrest in major cities such as Watts and Newark. Urban progressives began to see guns as something criminals used to hurt people like them.
 
jojosdad
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Join Date: 12-03-03
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 388 Thanks for the great site. I'm passing it on to all of the liberals I know (both of them).

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Now, this whole four-letter (****-letter) word thing on THR. I swear like a sailor (dad was a sailor). Do I follow FCC guidelines, or act like I'm in the presence of the children of strangers?

Neither - read the rules for the forum at the top, number 3 to be exact:
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As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.

__________________
A boy doesn't have to go to war to be a hero; he can say he doesn't like pie when he sees there isn't enough to go around.
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Jojos Dad:

Nana could say things that would make Caligula blush. I will, however, attempt to work and play well with others. Apologies in advance if I let one slip.

And I'm really glad you too like the article. You guys are GREAT! Both friends and I have met serious negative reaction at other shooting and RKBA sites.
 
food animals

Wow, what can I say. I read every single comment on that blog, took over an hour. Frankly I'm surprised there are 'flaming liberals' that embrace the 2nd.

Didn't care for some of the elitism comments that the posters are much smarter and educated than most of the general US population.

But it's good to know the 'left' recognizes firearms/weapons protect the rest of the amendments and individuals...even though it's pretty plain to see.


Quote:
There are two kinds of people in the world: (1) the free; and (2) food animals.

Hope you don't mind, I might use that as a sig line.
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Please do -- I'm not sure if it's original. Dad may have said something like it.

I've done some more reading on Kos and was pleased to see that in most 2A discussions the arguments are dominated by 2A supporters. Read this POS: Guns, Women and Freedom and then look at the comments. Penguinsong (WTH kinda screen name is that -- and NB I refrain from profanity!) gets her treacly little treatise torn apart. Those of *us* who participate over *there* dominate the RKBA discussions.
 
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I don't care if someone's heterosexual or not, I don't care what anyone's race is, I don't care what (if any) religion someone adheres to, I'm pretty sure that socialized medicine and education would be good things, et cetera, et cetera. I'm even a Democrat.
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You're not a Democrat, you're a retarded Libertarian! As soon as we shake that nasty case of social engineering out of your system, you'll be good to go.
 
I've heard of Whale songs -- what does a penguin sing?

Other than it's freezing, you march, it sucks, you march, you freeze, you die. At least Morgan Freeman narrates when you get eaten by a leopard seal.

"Guns, Women and Freedom
by penguinsong"

Now why did you have to go and upset me by posting that link? I just ate!
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Best regards,
Rainbowbob
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Sorry, dude. Should've warned you to skip to the comments. I agree. What a bunch of horse shi . . . nonsense. Take solace that penguinsong got her black and white as . . . posterior kicked.
 
After reading that article it occurs to me that the author is not preaching to the right choir.

The article outlines a reasoned support of the typical Libertarian view of the Constitution, and not the typical liberal or Democrat view of the Constitution.

He uses the ACLU as an example of an outfit who supports most of the Bill of Rights but in fact I don't think many Democrats really want many of the freedoms in the Bill of Rights including the 2A. The big one is the Tenth Amendment. The whole concept of "liberalism" is to completely ignore the Tenth Amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Like, social security, healthcare, welfare, arts funding, research funding, 99.999% of pork spending, affirmative action, special-interest projects, etc... all of those are not "powers delegated to the United States by the Constitution", and therefore they are "reserved for the States respectively, or the people".

The vast majority of the government and almost the entirety of the Democrat platform (and the Republicans as well) are in direct and stark violation of the Tenth Amendment.

Don't tell me liberals are interested in the Bill of Rights.
 
Tastes great! Less filling!

After reading that article it occurs to me that the author is not preaching to the right choir.

The article outlines a reasoned support of the typical Libertarian view of the Constitution, and not the typical liberal or Democrat view of the Constitution.

He uses the ACLU as an example of an outfit who supports most of the Bill of Rights but in fact I don't think many Democrats really want many of the freedoms in the Bill of Rights including the 2A. The big one is the Tenth Amendment. The whole concept of "liberalism" is to completely ignore the Tenth Amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Like, social security, healthcare, welfare, arts funding, research funding, 99.999% of pork spending, affirmative action, special-interest projects, etc... all of those are not "powers delegated to the United States by the Constitution", and therefore they are "reserved for the States respectively, or the people".

The vast majority of the government and almost the entirety of the Democrat platform (and the Republicans as well) are in direct and stark violation of the Tenth Amendment.

Don't tell me liberals are interested in the Bill of Rights.
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looking for used Kahr or Kel-Tec 9mms. PM me if you have one for sale.
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72:

I agree with you to the extent of the Tenth -- a thorn in many liberal sides. During bar preparation in 1996 students were assured that California had NEVER tested on the Tenth Amendment. Guess what was on the essay portion?

But the ACLU would seem, at least anecdotally, to support the 1st (all five clauses), the 4th (despite an overwhelming opposition by the prison-industrial complex), the 5th (same opposition), the 6th (same opposition) and the 8th. Bong Hits for Jesus was one recent and widely publicized free speech case.

IMHO, most liberals (let's just say "people to the left", or "Democrats" without parsing progressives, or pinkos, or winos) are ardent supporters of Amendments 1, 4, 5, 6 and 8. They just ignore the Ninth/Tenth and rationalize (or attempt to rationalize) away the Second. I'm no constitutional scholar, so we're talking in broad strokes here.

Without sparking controversy, let's examine how a liberal would view the case of Mumia Abu-Jamal. They would probably feel there were some violations of the Fourth, definite violations of the Fifth and Sixth, and definite violations of the Eighth. And if you consider his recordings and broadcasts, "Live From Death Row,", liberals would probably support his right to create and distribute such works.

Is this libertarian? Yeah, it looks that way to me. But that is the nature of libertarianism -- the ability to walk into a room and agree with different halves of the room on certain issues, and pis . . . antagonize the ENTIRE room on certain issues.

Angry Mouse is attempting to market an idea with maximum effect. Hire a media-buying firm and they'll do the same thing -- reach the largest number of your demographic audience at the least cost. If that effort appeals to the libertarian nature of the liberals (and Kos is a liberal blog) in the audience . . . well, to me the only measure is whether it is effective, not why. Angry Mouse does this by appealing to the (social) libertarian leanings held by many liberals.

So, once again (and totaling numbers from friends who've distributed this on RKBA sites), over 3000 shooters have read Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment. Hopefully they have all forwarded it to liberal friends. Nay-sayers have questioned the efficacy of this exercise. It is, however, worth the ten seconds it takes to forward a URL if two clichés are even the tiniest bit true: (1) the hundredth monkey; and (2) six degrees of separation.

I get to Senator Clinton in two degrees (possibly one), not that she'd change her mind. Each of you can get to someone in Congress or a federal judge in probably no more than four degrees.

Read the article. Pass it on. And then entertain yourself with Aristodemus's Favorite URL to Forward.
 
Aristodemus wrote:
IMHO, most liberals (let's just say "people to the left", or "Democrats" without parsing progressives, or pinkos, or winos) are ardent supporters of Amendments 1, 4, 5, 6 and 8. They just ignore the Ninth/Tenth and rationalize (or attempt to rationalize) away the Second. I'm no constitutional scholar, so we're talking in broad strokes here.
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I think you are being a bit overbroad if you consider where the support comes from respecting the fairness doctorine, hate crimes legislation, campaign finance reform and the like.

Many people will love the Bill of Rights so long as that support fits with their political agenda.... and tend to disregard it the minute it goes against their political agenda. This is not unique to the left and extends to all flavors of the political spectrum. Even the ACLU governors were deeply divided when they ultimately decided to back the Nazi march in Skokie, and it took some real fancy foot work by some of the rank and file membership of the ACLU to prevent the ACLU from adopting a policy in favor of stricter gun control laws. I am not speaking of their rejection of the 2nd as an individual right. The ACLU was prepared to actively support and promote gun control laws when some wiser and cooler heads told them that those laws could run afoul of the 4th and that gun control is not within the parameters of the ACLU, so the ACLU adopted a neutral stance with respect thereto.

I take it you are a lawyer, given your previous comments concerning the Bar. I also take it that your wife is a supporter of the 2nd and that Angry Mouse is a female. Any possibility that you are related to Angry Mouse by marriage?:)
 
The ACLU is dedicated to furthering its own political agenda, they aren't any better then any other group such as the NRA.

Now it will be funny to see what the ACLU will do when heller goes pro gun.
 
Now it will be funny to see what the ACLU will do when heller goes pro gun.
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Depends... If it is merely 5-4, I predict they will merely dismiss it as an anomaly caused by a conservative court and not alter their agenda.

Which is exactly why Gura, et al, have set their sights higher. They want at least a 6-3 decision so they can assert super majority status. Actually, I think they have a pretty decent chance to get 6-3... perhaps even more, but sadly I am pretty sure they will not get all 9.
 
Which is exactly why Gura, et al, have set their sights higher. They want at least a 6-3 decision so they can assert super majority status. Actually, I think they have a pretty decent chance to get 6-3... perhaps even more, but sadly I am pretty sure they will not get all 9.
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Not to worry.It will be at least 6-3 and possibly 7-2.
You can take that to the bank.:)
 
you don't want to spend a night in the little blue box

Eagle:

Many people will love the Bill of Rights so long as that support fits with their political agenda.... and tend to disregard it the minute it goes against their political agenda. This is not unique to the left and extends to all flavors of the political spectrum. Even the ACLU governors were deeply divided when they ultimately decided to back the Nazi march in Skokie, and it took some real fancy foot work by some of the rank and file membership of the ACLU to prevent the ACLU from adopting a policy in favor of stricter gun control laws. I am not speaking of their rejection of the 2nd as an individual right. The ACLU was prepared to actively support and promote gun control laws when some wiser and cooler heads told them that those laws could run afoul of the 4th and that gun control is not within the parameters of the ACLU, so the ACLU adopted a neutral stance with respect thereto.
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Agreed. Push comes to shove, people will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Liberals will have trouble with the tension between the free exercise clause and the establishment clause, but I think the Fourth through Sixth are much easier for them. The Eighth might cause a rift, but I don’t know how much internal conflict your “average” liberal (if there is such a thing) would have. Perhaps I’m merely hopeful that a libertarian/liberal intersection is the conduit to transmit reason, rather than emotion.

I take it you are a lawyer, given your previous comments concerning the Bar.
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I used to be, but knowledge of con-law is little more than an unpleasant memory.

I also take it that your wife is a supporter of the 2nd and that Angry Mouse is a female. Any possibility that you are related to Angry Mouse by marriage?
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My wife is in fact an ardent supporter of the 2nd and she would argue it in much the same way as Angry Mouse. She's also pretty jealous, however. If I were ever stupid enough to say something like "a fellow could do worse than Angry Mouse" I would, as Strother Martin would say, "spend a night in the box." In my house, “spend a night in the box” essentially means "procure a little blue box" -- and a little blue box is easily a Les Baer. I do, however, think we're lucky -- perhaps luckier than we know -- that we have smart and aggressive women on our side.
 
Aristodemus wrote:
I used to be, but knowledge of con-law is little more than an unpleasant memory.
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2nd Amend jurisprudence is a bit more fun, espescially if you are a history buff (which is something your name implies--- the Spartan of the 300 fame or the Greek myth?).

There is so little from SCOTUS on it that you are forced to revert to originalism arguments, revisting the lead up to the Glorious Revolution, the English Bill of Rights, the debates between Madison and Patrick Henry in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, the debates in the 1st Congress concerning the BoR's... Fascinating to me, but then I am a history nerd.

Aristodemus wrote:
I do, however, think we're lucky -- perhaps luckier than we know -- that we have smart and aggressive women on our side.
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I will second that!
 
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