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M1911s... Maintenance nightmares?

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Panzerschwein

Panzerschwein

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Hey guys, sorry for all the 1911 questions. I have decided that in the coming months, I will purchase a Colt Rail Gun as my first 1911. I plan to make it a regular at the shooting range, and if it proves itself, as my primary defensive handgun in the home defense (nightstand) and open carry roles (while hunting, patrolling the property) etc. So naturally I've been in "sponge mode" and have been absorbing as much information as possible on the 1911.

There is one thing that I've been running across, and that is that 1911s practically all need some level of gunsmithing to be reliable out of the box. How much truth is their to this? Also, I have heard that 1911s need to be maintained extremely closely in order to function properly. Things like extractors must be tuned just right, and the guns in general are just very particular and ornery if not worked over properly and maintained.

Basically, are all the rumors about how the 1911 is a "maintenance nightmare" true? Do they all, including Colt Rail Guns, really need to be worked over by a gunsmith before they will be reliable?

I am just trying to understand this issue, it's one of the few roadblocks that is kind of leaning me against this platform. If you guys could please let me know, I'd appreciate it.

Cooldill
 
Most production grade 1911s will need some work for 100% reliability because of tolerance stacking or dull cutting tools or sub contracted small parts. If you happen to buy one that doesn't need anything - you are a lucky person. If built to original blueprint specs and close tolerances a 1911 is extremely reliable. The problem is almost no one builds them like that today until you get into Wilson, Baer, Brown price levels. Back in the old days highly skilled craftsmen carefully fitted every part in the gun. Machines were expensive but labor was cheap. They would give a fitter a box of parts and tell him to fit it as good as he could - no matter how long that might take. He might only produce 2 or 3 guns per shift. Now it's the opposite. The problem has nothing to do with the 1911 design - it's because of modern mass production techniques. If you tried to build an engine or transmission with tolerances that loose it wouldn't run very long. A great deal of what we buy today is driven by producing X units per day and selling at a price point. It's all about sales volume. They are more concerned with how many units they can sell and less concerned with how many of them work poorly or not at all. They want to use CAD/CAM machines that spit parts out and then just assemble them into a gun at high speed and ship them out. That works for lawn mowers but not 1911s. Larry Vickers recently stated that if a guy wants to run a 1911 he must learn how to work on it. I would agree. If you just want plug and play - get a Glock. But once you get a 1911 set up and running 100% it's like nothing else in the world for shooting pleasure and it will run that way for many years.
 
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Drail said:
Most production grade 1911s will need some work for 100% reliability because of tolerance stacking or dull cutting tools or sub contracted small parts. If you happen to buy one that doesn't need anything - you are a lucky person. If built to original blueprint specs and close tolerances a 1911 is extremely reliable. The problem is almost no one builds them like that today until you get into Wilson, Baer, Brown price levels. Back in the old days highly skilled craftsmen carefully fitted every part in the gun. Machines were expensive but labor was cheap. They would give a guy a box of parts and tell him to fit it as good as he could - no matter how long that might take. Now it's the opposite. The problem has nothing to do with the 1911 design - it's because of modern mass production techniques. If you tried to build an engine or transmission with tolerances that loose it wouldn't run very long.
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"Most?" Not even close to being true.
 
Smells like big steaming piles of Internet Bravo Sierra to me. I've owned six 1911's, still have five, none of them needed "fixing" to run, only ammo and a little lubing now and then.
 
Don't take my word for it - ask any reputable smith who has been working on 1911s for 30 years. They'll tell you the same thing I did. I started back when Springfield Armory was the new kid on the block and Colt was making the worst guns in their history due to labor problems and worn out machine tools.
 
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Drail said:
Most production grade 1911s will need some work for 100% reliability because of tolerance stacking or dull cutting tools or sub contracted small parts. If you happen to buy one that doesn't need anything - you are a lucky person. If built to original blueprint specs and close tolerances a 1911 is extremely reliable. The problem is almost no one builds them like that today until you get into Wilson, Baer, Brown price levels. Back in the old days highly skilled craftsmen carefully fitted every part in the gun. Machines were expensive but labor was cheap. They would give a fitter a box of parts and tell him to fit it as good as he could - no matter how long that might take. He might only produce 2 or 3 guns per shift. Now it's the opposite. The problem has nothing to do with the 1911 design - it's because of modern mass production techniques. If you tried to build an engine or transmission with tolerances that loose it wouldn't run very long. A great deal of what we buy today is driven by producing X units per day and selling at a price point. It's all about sales volume. They are more concerned with how many units they can sell and less concerned with how many of them work poorly or not at all. They want to use CAD/CAM machines that spit parts out and then just assemble them into a gun at high speed and ship them out. That works for lawn mowers but not 1911s. Larry Vickers recently stated that if a guy wants to run a 1911 he must learn how to work on it. I would agree. If you just want plug and play - get a Glock. But once you get a 1911 set up and running 100% it's like nothing else in the world for shooting pleasure and it will run that way for many years.
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Indeed, this is what I keep reading about.

It seems "tolerance stacking" is a big deal, and something that only the extremely expensive custom makers have been able to solve. It just worries me... I don't want to put $1200 into a Colt Rail Gun (that's a lot of money for my pay grade) and then have the thing not work, so I'd end up having to have the gun worked over just to function properly.
 
I have owned 9 1911s, from low end basic GI types to moderate just under $1K guns. So no high stuff. They have been reliable, just one needed an extractor adjustment that I did myself. A few problems with magazines, easily fixed by not using that magazine. So from my perspective 1911s are not the demanding primadonnas that some make them out to be. Current inexpensive and moderately priced 1911s made by major manufacturers such as RIA, Springfield, Remington, Ruger, Smith and Wesson and Colt are reliable.

Beware of 1911 snobs that think any 1911 priced under $3,000 is junk.
 
I plan to make it a regular at the shooting range, and if it proves itself, as my primary defensive handgun in the home defense (nightstand) and open carry roles (while hunting, patrolling the property) etc.
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Your above requirements are what will dictate how much tuning you'll require.

As a range toy, you could likely get by pretty much as the gun comes out of the box. I started with 1911s when Colt was the only game in town and every one I owned went straight from the retailer to a 1911 pistolsmith before I'd expect it to work reliably...I understand they have made some improvements.

We had a local police department that approved officers carrying the 1911 a couple of years ago. Officers had to purchase their own 1911 and had to complete a separate proficiency/qualification course. During this course, they had to fire about 600 rounds. They had gun failures which ran just over 60%. This percentage included both newly purchased guns as well a guns the officers/owners had been shooting for years. The least expensive gun which made it through the course was a tuned Dan Wesson CBOB

A lot of the reliability depends on how hard you plan to train with it. The FBI HRT uses custom 1911s which cost about $2500 and they have full time armorers to try to keep they working...but they train a lot.

I know several top tier 1911 pistolsmiths. And they all agree that the 1911, to be used for serious defensive duty, requires proper tuning and a lot of maintenance.

I really like the 1911 platform, but it wouldn't be my first choice as a defensive handgun
 
I bought one of those military rail guns in used but excellent condition saving $400 off retail price. While accuracy is nothing to sing home about it proved very reliable with Remington subsonic JHPs and American Eagle ball ammo. When compared to contemporary designs basic disassembly and reassembly are real pain in the ass.
 
Basically, are all the rumors about how the 1911 is a "maintenance nightmare" true?*
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They are hardly nightmares. If it doesn't run well when you buy it, send it back.

Make sure you get magazines that it likes. There are lots of new and improved choices out there.
You are gonna want to keep it well lubricated.
And yes, you are going to want to check the extractor tension fairly regularly.
I would call it gun maintenance, not gunsmithing.
 
What the OP is worrying about might have been true in the 70s and maybe a little more and mostly with Colts but these days the factory 1911s are extremely reliable as long as you have good magazines as with most semi-autos. Even todays inexpensive 1911s are more reliably than most of the Colts form the 70s.

I wouldn't worry about reliability with a 1911 today. Buy one you like, fire a few hundred rounds if your chosen ammo to verify reliability and carry that gun.
 
PabloJ said:
When compared to contemporary designs basic disassembly and reassembly are real pain in the ass.
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Having grown up with the 1911, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I first field stripped an H&K P7...it was actually easier than a Walther PP/PPK

But I do have to admit that the 1911 is the easiest to detail strip...since you don't need any tools other than the gun itself
 
I have had GI and commercial model 1911's by the truck load over the years (only have about fifty 1911 and other pistols built on the original design around the house today) and have yet to find an individual pistol that was a "maintenance nightmare". I have run into minor problems that were easily fixed at home but 1911's shoot and they do the job well. Recently I purchased a Remington SS no frills pistol that has gone through hundreds of rounds without difficulty, for Christmas I received a Colt Government model as a gift from my best friend and it too digests ammo like Mr. Browning designed it to do. Most problems arise from amature tinker's screwing up the dynamics of the original design.
Forget the Internet crapola and get yourself a quality pistol and shoot it the rest of your life, and sleep well as it can be at the ready at all times if the need arises. Millions of satisfied customers have carried these pistols while in service of armies throughout the world and a lot of those millions of pistols are still reliably shooting 230 gr ball today, some (like my 1918 Colt) are approaching or over 100 years old and still a viable performer.
 
I have five-- a Citadel full-size, Springfield full-size, Ruger full-size, RIA compact, and Colt compact. Two-- the Ruger and the Colt-- have never given me any trouble. The rest have all needed some fiddling with the extractor, and the RIA also needed a new firing pin because the original was so rough it would stick in the channel. Having the needed tools for extractor tensioning might come in handy, as that seems to be the most common weak point.
 
Yeah if you want to limit yourself to 230 ball, are happy with grip safety, hammer etc. And when things go bad you are willing to sit down and smoke a big bowl of J M Browning you'll be fine.
I've had less than a dozen of various commercial brands and all of them had issues some only ammo related, some requiring smithing.
I jokingly call the 1911 an expert's gun but to master it's mechanism and use it with a high level of efficiency is not easy.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
I have two, a RIA mid size, bull barrel pistol that I purchased well-used with aftermarket grip safety and thumb safety. Very smooth and reliable, and I would guess it has many thousands of rounds down range.
I had to replace a failed recoil spring plug and recoil spring at one point. Normal wear and tear from lots of use. I also replaced the firing pin stop for a tighter fitting one, but that was my preference, no malfunctions.

The other is a DW Heritage purchased new. Other than breaking in a bit (very tight) it has run perfectly and very smoothly out of the box. ( over 1K rds )
I think the major manufacturers have their CS act together and you should be able to buy a 1911 with confidence that it will be consistent and reliable. RIA, Springfield, Colt, Ruger, Dan Wesson, CZ, are sure bets IMHO, and there are probably others that will work just as well.
Buy from a dealer and manufacturer that will stand behind the gun (like you would do for a major purchase) if you are still concerned. I bet you will have no issues.
 
Every time I read this stuff, I think that I must be the luckiest guy on the planet.

I've owned more than a dozen 5" Kimber and Sig 1911s, and put an average of 5K-8K rounds through each without issue before I moved on to some other range beater. Before I shot them for the first time, my standard practice was to lube them, replace the FLGR with a GI plug assembly, install a 26lb hammer spring, install grips of choice, and toss whatever magazines they came with for CMC PowerMags or Colt hybrids (usually the Colts).

I made a couple of choices that I think are key; 5" guns only, magazines with a demonstrated track record of taking many thousands of rounds of use without issue, and not sweating anything else.

Heck, even my 5" RIA's can make a 600rd stretch without a stoppage other than a empty magazine.

The only time that I've ever had issues with a 1911 it was with my Springfields; they all came with undersized firing pin retainers and the extractor would clock. Fixing them wasn't hard, but it could have been frustrating for a 1911 novice to diagnose and correct.
 
Excellent post, Ibmikey. My experience is the exact same as yours except that my earliest one was made in 1917! I have about the same amount of them lying around. Latest ones to join the stable are a couple of Colt XSE's (full size and commander) and a Ruger. Great shooters all. Only one I ever had any problems with is a Gold Cup that kept breaking the adjustable rear sight roll pin about 15 years ago. Did it twice before I replaced it with a solid pin made from O1 tool steel (still in it). Probably had something to do with the fact that I was using it for a bowling pin gun with some VERY hot loads. Loaned some to one of my friends shooting a Sig once and broke the barrel lug on his gun, so it probably wasn't the Colt's fault.

Ibmikey said:
I have had GI and commercial model 1911's by the truck load over the years (only have about fifty 1911 and other pistols built on the original design around the house today) and have yet to find an individual pistol that was a "maintenance nightmare". I have run into minor problems that were easily fixed at home but 1911's shoot and they do the job well. Recently I purchased a Remington SS no frills pistol that has gone through hundreds of rounds without difficulty, for Christmas I received a Colt Government model as a gift from my best friend and it too digests ammo like Mr. Browning designed it to do. Most problems arise from amature tinker's screwing up the dynamics of the original design.
Forget the Internet crapola and get yourself a quality pistol and shoot it the rest of your life, and sleep well as it can be at the ready at all times if the need arises. Millions of satisfied customers have carried these pistols while in service of armies throughout the world and a lot of those millions of pistols are still reliably shooting 230 gr ball today, some (like my 1918 Colt) are approaching or over 100 years old and still a viable performer.
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A Colt Rail Gun should be good to go. You may have to smooth out some sharp edges on the frame and slide.

The biggest issue I've had with the under $750 guns are the OE crap magazines and poor extractor tuning.

While I wouldn't call it an expert's gun, I wouldn't call them plug and play either.

On a side note, I've had more problems out of three Glocks than I have with a dozen 1911s. But to be fair, the first thing I do with a new (to me) 1911 is check/tune the extractor and throw the factory magazine in a box. Neither should be an issue for the Colt.
 
Colts would probably be your best bet for a reliable "factory production" model. Remember, 1911s are designed to run ball ammo. If you want it to run JHP reliably, you MIGHT need to do some work to the feed ramp / magazines. Some will eat anything, but not guaranteed. Extractors are usually reliable as assembled. Part of the stories on them is, when they get worn out, they are not a drop-in replacement, they require some bending to make it work for your particular gun. 1911s are finely tuned machines, compared to, say, an AR15, which is why any eBay part will work in one gun and not the other (I am using hyperbole, but you get the picture). I agree with the above posts, that, if you want a 1911, and don't want to wait a year for your $3,000 to produce a custom pistol, buy a high-quality production model (Colt, Springfield, Ruger) with good customer service for the unknown, and enjoy tweaking it to run your favorite load reliably.
 
Hi Cooldill,

Don't worry about asking these questions. The only bad question is the one not asked.

I'm with rbernie in that my own personal experience is not that most 1911s need help out of the box. My evidence, respectfully submitted, is first my pair of Springfields that have run superbly for years with nothing more than new sights added. In fact, they run just as well as my Les Baer, checkered by our own Tark.

The second evidence point is a 500 round class which I attended last year. Half of us, approximately 6, had 1911 platforms. There was not a single failure in the 1911 group through the class. Ok, one guy had his sight fall off much to the amusement of us all. Then he cleaned up on an accuracy drill with no rear sight. Go figure.

The moral of the story is to go buy your Colt and don't look back. You'll have more fun than you can handle.
 
I'm not saying they aren't fun to shoot and they are potentially very accurate. All I'm saying is you can expect to do some tweaking to get high performance and reliability and don't be disappointed if your gun doesn't function with every type of ammo on the shelf.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
l I'm saying is you can expect to do some tweaking to get high performance and reliability and don't be disappointed if your gun doesn't function with every type of ammo on the shelf.
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Hasnt been my experience at all... Course Ive only been shooting them since the 80's....
 
Cooldill, if you want a great rail gun go to buds and look at the RIA Tac ultra fs 45. $610 and they are awsome. I purchased one three months ago as my first 1911 and have hade zero problems. Plus you get a lifetime warranty and go to Rock Islands YouTube channel for all the dissembly and maintaince videos you could want.
 
Let's see. I've only owned 5 1911's over the past 15years or so. Mostly inexpensive RIA's or used GI Springfields. The only time I had a problem was with my Springfield, and that was only because I was trying to tune it to shoot competitively as a wad-gun. Things can get tricky when you really start to tighten-up tolerances, and only load at bunny-fart levels.

All my other 1911's, 45ACP and 38Super function flawlessly with what-ever I run thru them.
 
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