Pa. cops fatally shoot homeowner who had pulled gun on intruder

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Salt & Bat, that is my point. Many police unions oppose this citizen right. There was a time when police officials condoned reactionary beatings.
They need to accept the will of the voters. Our Republic is opposed to a police state. The 2nd Amendment protects police and civilians.:thumbup:
I would rather get a beating then shot. in Bklyn NY when I was a kid hanging out on the corners cops would give us a boot in the rear end so we would move. My father was a cop in NYPD then a detective never fired his gun and was proud of it. He along with the guys he worked and most others with would fist fight some guys in vacant lots but things have changed
 
Not necessarily.
In Arkansas the felony murder rule is defined as a death that is caused in the course of, in the furtherance of, or in the immediate flight of a felony.
The case must exhibit extreme indifference to the value of human life.

The felony offense need not be violent per se.
A vacation of a conviction is not the same thing as a restoration of rights. It means an appeals judge through out the entire court case.

Usually this is caused by bad counsil or some sort of procedural error. It could be that evidence used should have or shouldn't have been admitted wasn't or was.

The prosecutor had to determine if she should try to prosecute the case again as if the first never happened based on the evidence that will be allowed in the new case.

In the 1994 case that sent Christopher Thompkins to prison right before he murdered Ronald Cunningham he had pulled a gun on his wife Brenda Richmond during a domestic disturbance. In most States pulling a gun on someone is aggravated assault. Especially when they shoot someone else twice moments after for merely stepping in the way in a probable attempt to diffuse the situation.

New details emerging about man shot by police (*Click for link*)

Online criminal court records in Allegheny County show Christopher Thompkins went to prison for shooting and killing someone in 1994. That conviction means he should not have been in possession of a firearm on Sunday when investigators believe he was firing the gun to scare off an intruder.

In November of 1994, police were called to an apartment building on West North Avenue for a report of a domestic disturbance. When they arrived, they found Ronald Cunningham shot twice in the chest. He died at Allegheny General. Cunningham was a happily married father of four boys. He just happened to be at the apartment working as a handyman and intervened when Thompkins pulled a gun on his ex-wife, Brenda Richmond.

She gave an interview to KDKA’s Ralph Iannotti after the 1994 incident.
Richmond said, “Ronald Cunningham tried to block him from shooting me. He was like blocking him so he couldn’t shoot me and he shot him. Shot him twice. Not once, twice. Shot him dead in the chest.” Richmond went on to say, “I want to let the world know that Ronald Cunningham is a hero. He saved my life. And, believe me, domestic violence does not get any better if you are in a situation like that. The best thing to do is get out.”

In March of 1997, Thompkins was convicted of criminal homicide and sentenced to seven to 15 years in prison. That conviction made it illegal for him to ever possess a firearm.

Why Thompkins was only sentenced to 7 to 15 years for murdering someone after he pulled a gun on someone else is mystifying. So Thompkins was not a good guy.

I wonder what the four sons and the wife of Ronald Cunningham think about all this.
 
In the 1994 case that sent Christopher Thompkins to prison right before he murdered Ronald Cunningham he had pulled a gun on his wife Brenda Richmond during a domestic disturbance. In most States pulling a gun on someone is aggravated assault. Especially when they shoot someone else twice moments after for merely stepping in the way in a probable attempt to diffuse the situation.

There could be a lot about this case that might provide fodder for deep a deep study of home defense, Castle Doctrine issues, and some other things too, but the circumstances of this case will probably not help clarify those things.

Thompkins was, at one point in his life, not a good guy. And I'd be that the sons and wife of Ronald Cunningham are probably happy he's dead, human nature being what it is. But lawfulness or unlawfullness of acts of self-defense must be judged almost absent information about deeds long in the past. Had Mr. Thompkins been charged with attempted murder for shooting at the intruder, the jury would possibly not have been allowed to be told of his criminal past. The prosecution would have wanted the jury to know those details, but the defense would (probably rightly) have moved to suppress that as irrelevant to what happened in that moment, between Mr. Thompkins and the intruder.

On this night he very well have done exactly what he (or we!) should do in that situation. Or he might have done some unjustifiable things in firing that gun. Had he lived we might have gotten to see how the court would rule on whether he could be excused for having touched that gun, under those exact circumstances. We might have (hmmm... it's even possible we might still!) gotten to see how the court chose to deal with Mrs. Richmond for having provided a firearm to a prohibited person, again under these very specific circumstances.

But he's dead, and this case is probably just going to go away.
 
My recollection of this event was that Mr. Tompkins was randomly firing to scare the intruder as he came down the steps, which led directly to the front door. When the police arrived their first sight was a man coming toward them actively firing a weapon or at best, he had just quit shooting as they came to the front door. Definitely a bad set of circumstances for all parties involved.

I feel the worst for the police officers in this and similar cases. They will get off as justified in this case, but will carry the stigma of this incident forever. Knowing that you could be shot and killed if you make a bad decision has to be a tough way to make a living.
 
I would rather get a beating then shot. in Bklyn NY when I was a kid hanging out on the corners cops would give us a boot in the rear end so we would move. My father was a cop in NYPD then a detective never fired his gun and was proud of it. He along with the guys he worked and most others with would fist fight some guys in vacant lots but things have changed
Americans should never have to choose a beating over a shooting? Our civil police do not have that latitude of enforcement. That was a failure in the 1938 German Republic.:eek::eek:
 
This was a very unfortunate situation. It also makes me realize how difficult an officer's job is though. Its hard to tell if the guy with the gun is the home owner or the criminal unless you personally know the people living in the house.
 
My recollection of this event was that Mr. Tompkins was randomly firing to scare the intruder as he came down the steps, which led directly to the front door. When the police arrived their first sight was a man coming toward them actively firing a weapon or at best, he had just quit shooting as they came to the front door. Definitely a bad set of circumstances for all parties involved.

I feel the worst for the police officers in this and similar cases. They will get off as justified in this case, but will carry the stigma of this incident forever. Knowing that you could be shot and killed if you make a bad decision has to be a tough way to make a living.
I guess it don't matter what the dead guys mother wife and friends think. this guy did his time in prison and did not attempt to kill the intruder in the house. that should count for something
 
This was a very unfortunate situation. It also makes me realize how difficult an officer's job is though. Its hard to tell if the guy with the gun is the home owner or the criminal unless you personally know the people living in the house.
they could have stayed behind their car and used the PA system to find out what is going on instead of charging in
 
Americans should never have to choose a beating over a shooting? Our civil police do not have that latitude of enforcement. That was a failure in the 1938 German Republic.:eek::eek:
we both know if the founding fathers saw the police situation in this country as of now they would have started another revolution
 
they could have stayed behind their car and used the PA system to find out what is going on instead of charging in
If someone has called for help because there's someone breaking into their home, and when you arrive on scene you hear shots being fired, should you hang out outside with a bullhorn calling out "is everyone all right in there???"

I mean, it is probably safer for the officers to wait outside until they're sure everyone's dead, but most folks calling for help are probably thinking the officers might come in and stop somebody from killing them. And they might need to charge in rather rapidly if they want to be able to lend a hand before all the murdering is done.


(And many of us know or believe that to be a pretty vain hope, response times being what they are, but the officers DID in fact arrive before the bad guy had killed anyone or even escaped the premises. It sure sucks that they met a guy shooting down the stairs, apparently at them. But, I really don't see anything they did procedurally wrong.)
 
If someone has called for help because there's someone breaking into their home, and when you arrive on scene you hear shots being fired, should you hang out outside with a bullhorn calling out "is everyone all right in there???"

I mean, it is probably safer for the officers to wait outside until they're sure everyone's dead, but most folks calling for help are probably thinking the officers might come in and stop somebody from killing them. And they might need to charge in rather rapidly if they want to be able to lend a hand before all the murdering is done.


(And many of us know or believe that to be a pretty vain hope, response times being what they are, but the officers DID in fact arrive before the bad guy had killed anyone or even escaped the premises. It sure sucks that they met a guy shooting down the stairs, apparently at them. But, I really don't see anything they did procedurally wrong.)
in most mass shooting in schools and in Orlando they waited outside until it was over. mass shooting is when they should go in. charging in to a residence when they know most people have guns might result in the homeowner maybe firing at them. most of the time they get there to late this is one time they got there to early. if they got there 5 minutes later no one would have been shot. the dead guy just had the worst luck in that situation
 
I guess it don't matter what the dead guys mother wife and friends think. this guy did his time in prison and did not attempt to kill the intruder in the house. that should count for something

Sometimes when a person makes a bad decision it comes back to bite them. I cannot think of any situation where the proper way to defend your house and family would be to randomly fire a weapon as you walk through your house. Two of the pillars of firearm safety are Never Point The Gun At Something You Are Not Prepared To Destroy and Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It. He could have just as easily killed one of those officers as they killed him.
 
Yes, the dead guy did have terrible luck here. And such a thing could happen to anybody who finds themselves in such a situation.

We've had a number of threads where we discussed various ways to try to better your odds of not being shot in a "friendly fire" incident (by cops or others).

This fellow appears to have thought firing his gun down the stairs in an attempt to scare away the intruder was the best, or only, thing he could do. Most of us would hope we don't ever find ourselves making that choice (firing "warning shots," firing blindly not at a specific target, firing when you aren't 100% sure who's in front of your muzzle...like arriving police officers, and so on). But situations can stack up to really limit one's good options.
 
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He could have just as easily killed one of those officers as they killed him.
Or his blind mother, who was downstairs and who he was apparently trying to protect, by shooting his gun towards her location...
 
Sometimes when a person makes a bad decision it comes back to bite them. I cannot think of any situation where the proper way to defend your house and family would be to randomly fire a weapon as you walk through your house. Two of the pillars of firearm safety are Never Point The Gun At Something You Are Not Prepared To Destroy and Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It. He could have just as easily killed one of those officers as they killed him.
you are using local range tactics in a life or death situation when you are scared adrenaline pumping. so if you in a shootout you make sure what is behind your target before firing? did the cops do that? they fired randomly without knowing what was behind the target. do you break the rule of never point a gun at something you not willing to destroy if you miss your target?
 
you are using local range tactics in a life or death situation when you are scared adrenaline pumping. so if you in a shootout you make sure what is behind your target before firing? did the cops do that? they fired randomly without knowing what was behind the target. do you break the rule of never point a gun at something you not willing to destroy if you miss your target?
Good points, but yes. You are still responsible for every bullet you fire. You don't get a pass on that just because you were scared and your adrenaline was pumping. You don't even get a pass on that if your shots would have been judged justifiable because of a threat against your life. YES, you have to pay attention to who or what else you might shoot and kill if you miss the bad guy you're shooting at. YES, you can be charged and/or end up paying huge civil damages if you injure someone you didn't intend to hit.

It may happen anyway, and keeping yourself or a loved one from being murdered may be worth that risk. But nothing about using lethal force is safe, or without GRAVE risks. Shooting (at) someone is about the second WORST outcome of any violent encounter. Just because you did what you had to do doesn't mean your own life and freedom won't be lost in that moment. It is incredibly serious, incredibly risky stuff.

The police face the same factors, and that's part of why they are indemnified and enjoy qualified immunity as long as they were acting appropriately in line with their department training and policies. (But you as a private citizen, are not.)

Walking through your house, firing warning shots at no specific target is simply a horrific tactic. I'm not going to flat out condemn the deceased guy for it because I wasn't there and don't really know all the details, but as I said before, it sure is something I'd pray I never find myself in a position to feel I should do.
 
The police in Ogden, Ut. did a no knock Swat attack on a residence. One officer was not wearing his body armor and was killed by the home's owner.
It seems they invaded the wrong address?:eek:
 
Good points, but yes. You are still responsible for every bullet you fire. You don't get a pass on that just because you were scared and your adrenaline was pumping. You don't even get a pass on that if your shots would have been judged justifiable because of a threat against your life. YES, you have to pay attention to who or what else you might shoot and kill if you miss the bad guy you're shooting at. YES, you can be charged and/or end up paying huge civil damages if you injure someone you didn't intend to hit.

It may happen anyway, and keeping yourself or a loved one from being murdered may be worth that risk. But nothing about using lethal force is safe, or without GRAVE risks. Shooting (at) someone is about the second WORST outcome of any violent encounter. Just because you did what you had to do doesn't mean your own life and freedom won't be lost in that moment. It is incredibly serious, incredibly risky stuff.

The police face the same factors, and that's part of why they are indemnified and enjoy qualified immunity as long as they were acting appropriately in line with their department training and policies. (But you as a private citizen, are not.)

Walking through your house, firing warning shots at no specific target is simply a horrific tactic. I'm not going to flat out condemn the deceased guy for it because I wasn't there and don't really know all the details, but as I said before, it sure is something I'd pray I never find myself in a position to feel I should do.
Sam I think a lot of dislike for cops and politicians is specifically because they are not held to the same standards as we peons are. a big problem with having a gun and using it to defend yourself or your home is what you pointed out. I believe if you in your own house under a threat you can fire as many shots as you want but the "authorities" do not. even if you win in court your life is destroyed. that is why I just don't get zeal guys have to want to carry
 
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The police in Ogden, Ut. did a no knock Swat attack on a residence. One officer was not wearing his body armor and was killed by the home's owner.
It seems they invaded the wrong address?:eek:
hate to know what happened to that guy afterwards
 
local range tactics

If you think that firearm safety only applies when you are on the range, hopefully you are not a hunter or carry a firearm for self defense. Situational awareness and appropriate behavior is important in any situation where you may have to protect yourself. Failure to do so is likely to get you in trouble with the law no matter how good your intentions are.

The police officer had a specific target that he thought was threatening his life. Hindsight may be 20-20, but Mr. Thompkins was never threatened by the intruder who was later determined to be unarmed.
 
Sam I think a lot of dislike for cops and politicians is specifically because they are not held to the same standards as we peons are.
I think you're conflating a couple of things there. Dislike of politicians has been a trend since politicians were invented. Dislike of cops is an unfortunate and separate issue. No one is above the law, or should be. If a politician uses his/her position to profit or to break the law and get away with it, that's simply corruption.

Police officers are hired by us, by society, to do something very dangerous, and to deliberately put themselves in situations where the risks of injury and death are fairly high. We can't do much about that, aside from issuing them body armor, and giving them decent training and lots of backup so they can stack odds in their favor.

But physical injury isn't the only, or biggest, risk an officer faces. Some of the tasks we assign them to do are violent, and some involve firing guns in public places. They have to. And that always carries risks that someone may be accidentally -- or mistakenly -- injured or killed. As long as the officer was truly acting as he or she was trained to act, and carrying out orders in a lawful way, WE, society, will protect them from being sued (by having their department or civil government take on the liability for their civil case, or preventing one) or jailed for a mistake or accident that happens while carrying out those orders. That's what indemnification is.

It is worth noting that that doesn't cover an officer who's off doing his own thing and accidentally hurts someone, or who is breaking the law himself. Then he or she is on their own and can be convicted of crimes and sued for every penny. But if the police officer is acting as OUR agent, carrying out the laws we have passed, WE will give them expanded legal authority to act and will protect them from personal civil risks.

That's not corruption, that's simply the only way policing could ever be made to work. It literally makes no sense to say that an officer acting to preserve the peace and enforce the law should be held to exactly the same standards as a private citizen, not sworn to those duties. YOU don't have the duty or authority to stop people for speeding and write them a ticket. You don't have the duty or authority to put flashing lights on your car and speed off to emergencies. You don't have an umbrella of protection from civil lawsuit for accidents and mistakes made while serving the duty to society you DIDN'T swear to fulfill.

a big problem with having a gun and using it to defend yourself or your home is what you pointed out. even if you win in court your life is destroyed.
It absolutely can be. But it often isn't. And the more careful you are to avoid trouble and to act with violence only when you have no other possible choice, the less likely you are to even end up in court at all. Plenty of people have used a firearm to defend themselves and their families and never even seen the inside of the police station, let alone a holding cell or court room. But it can happen.
Life isn't safe, and there isn't a guaranteed good outcome, even if you've acted in the right.

that is why I just don't get zeal guys have to want to carry
Well, there are people who probably shouldn't carry a gun. But for most of us, even understanding the risks, the possibility of saving your life or that of a loved one is worth those risks. It is often better to keep on living, or to let a wife or child keep on living, even if you end up financially hurt or in prison, than to die or see them die at the hands of an evil person.
 
If you think that firearm safety only applies when you are on the range, hopefully you are not a hunter or carry a firearm for self defense. Situational awareness and appropriate behavior is important in any situation where you may have to protect yourself. Failure to do so is likely to get you in trouble with the law no matter how good your intentions are.

The police officer had a specific target that he thought was threatening his life. Hindsight may be 20-20, but Mr. Thompkins was never threatened by the intruder who was later determined to be unarmed.
Thompkins did not know the guy was unarmed. the cops could have fired 20 shots and hit the guy once and no one will find out because they lie about it. If someone is firing at me and I have a rifle I will remember to sling up get in a comfortable position check 800 yds behind my target start to control my breathing line up the sights and fire
 
Thompkins did not know the guy was unarmed.
We don't know anything for sure, and certainly not that. If the story is correct, he didn't even know exactly where the man was, and was simply firing his weapon blindly to scare him off. That's tough to support.

the cops could have fired 20 shots and hit the guy once and no one will find out because they lie about it.
Look, I'm going to ask really nicely, pretty please, that you stop making strident and unsupported accusations about the police.
Those officers will probably have to account for every single shot each of them fired. If you've ever looked at an investigation scene (which this is or will be) the bullet strikes are all found and marked. It will be QUITE obvious how many shots the officers fired and where they went. The bullets can even be recovered and ballistic matched to which officer's gun fired each one.

And there's no point in lying about it. By nearly every measure I can think of, the scenario as given is a justifiable shoot decision. Mr. Thompkins probably didn't intend to shoot at the police, but the fact is (or at least seems to be from what we know) that he WAS shooting at the police. It sure sucks he didn't meant to, but the police didn't, very clearly, act inappropriately in response. Bad luck, but not wrongdoing.

But seriously, stop making these wild anti-cop accusations. It doesn't help us here, and it paints you in a pretty poor light.

If someone is firing at me and I have a rifle I will remember to sling up get in a comfortable position check 800 yds behind my target start to control my breathing line up the sights and fire
Using hyperbole like this makes it look like you're deliberately missing the point.

I'd assume you've never been in a live-fire shoot house where there were friendlies mixed in with the hostile targets? Never realized to your horror that you'd just killed "people" you didn't notice before you fired? It's eye-opening.

YES, you are responsible for what happens to every bullet you fire. Know your target and what's behind it. Your target is Sleazy Eddie the robber, but if there's a group of kids playing on the sidewalk behind him, you'd better be VERY aware of what you're about to do. Nobody on the planet's going to give you a pass for killing one of them accidentally.
 
I think you're conflating a couple of things there. Dislike of politicians has been a trend since politicians were invented. Dislike of cops is an unfortunate and separate issue. No one is above the law, or should be. If a politician uses his/her position to profit or to break the law and get away with it, that's simply corruption.

Police officers are hired by us, by society, to do something very dangerous, and to deliberately put themselves in situations where the risks of injury and death are fairly high. We can't do much about that, aside from issuing them body armor, and giving them decent training and lots of backup so they can stack odds in their favor.

But physical injury isn't the only, or biggest, risk an officer faces. Some of the tasks we assign them to do are violent, and some involve firing guns in public places. They have to. And that always carries risks that someone may be accidentally -- or mistakenly -- injured or killed. As long as the officer was truly acting as he or she was trained to act, and carrying out orders in a lawful way, WE, society, will protect them from being sued (by having their department or civil government take on the liability for their civil case, or preventing one) or jailed for a mistake or accident that happens while carrying out those orders. That's what indemnification is.

It is worth noting that that doesn't cover an officer who's off doing his own thing and accidentally hurts someone, or who is breaking the law himself. Then he or she is on their own and can be convicted of crimes and sued for every penny. But if the police officer is acting as OUR agent, carrying out the laws we have passed, WE will give them expanded legal authority to act and will protect them from personal civil risks.

That's not corruption, that's simply the only way policing could ever be made to work. It literally makes no sense to say that an officer acting to preserve the peace and enforce the law should be held to exactly the same standards as a private citizen, not sworn to those duties. YOU don't have the duty or authority to stop people for speeding and write them a ticket. You don't have the duty or authority to put flashing lights on your car and speed off to emergencies. You don't have an umbrella of protection from civil lawsuit for accidents and mistakes made while serving the duty to society you DIDN'T swear to fulfill.

It absolutely can be. But it often isn't. And the more careful you are to avoid trouble and to act with violence only when you have no other possible choice, the less likely you are to even end up in court at all. Plenty of people have used a firearm to defend themselves and their families and never even seen the inside of the police station, let alone a holding cell or court room. But it can happen.
Life isn't safe, and there isn't a guaranteed good outcome, even if you've acted in the right.


Well, there are people who probably shouldn't carry a gun. But for most of us, even understanding the risks, the possibility of saving your life or that of a loved one is worth those risks. It is often better to keep on living, or to let a wife or child keep on living, even if you end up financially hurt or in prison, than to die or see them die at the hands of an evil person.
Sam a garbage mans job more dangerous then a cops job cab drivers roofers loggers fishermen even a kid working 3AM at a 7-11 is worse.
 
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