The "Four Rules"

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This is what I meant....you boiled it down to two rules, but the 2nd one requires an explanation.

The difference is the explanation is simply defining the terms that I used. With Cooper's rules the explanation includes clarifying and describing all the times when the rules don't actually apply or aren't accurate.

And your revision doesn't include a "the weapon is always loaded" rule, which I think is the most important one.

I didn't include that because the point is to use rules that are accurate and relevant at all times. That rule is not.
 
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I'd be happy with a rewrite.
OK, how about TAB-K, as I teach in 4-H; it is also taught by the WI DNR:
T-Treat every firearm as if it was loaded. (Similar, true. I expand on this at the training sessions with 'always check whether a gun is loaded or not when handed one or picking one up, even if the other person did not, which they should have.)
A- Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
B-Be aware of the target and what's beyond. (I point out the berms, and talk about how far a .22 could go if it went over the berm, etc. )
K- Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire. (This is the one I really stress with the kids, and I watch them like a hawk when they shoot.)

I grew up on Cooper's rules, but TAB-K covers it well too, and has a mnemonic acronym to remember it by. I usually close with "Following these four rules will keep you and those around you safer while handling guns. Breaking them is when bad things happen, and breaking more than one is when tragedies happen."
 
OK, how about TAB-K, as I teach in 4-H; it is also taught by the WI DNR:
T-Treat every firearm as if it was loaded. (Similar, true. I expand on this at the training sessions with 'always check whether a gun is loaded or not when handed one or picking one up, even if the other person did not, which they should have.)
A- Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
B-Be aware of the target and what's beyond. (I point out the berms, and talk about how far a .22 could go if it went over the berm, etc. )
K- Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire. (This is the one I really stress with the kids, and I watch them like a hawk when they shoot.)

I grew up on Cooper's rules, but TAB-K covers it well too, and has a mnemonic acronym to remember it by. I usually close with "Following these four rules will keep you and those around you safer while handling guns. Breaking them is when bad things happen, and breaking more than one is when tragedies happen."

I would say those are more accurate. The first one of course requires clarification and a description of the exceptions. As I mentioned in my OP, I would also add "be aware of what and who is around the target and where and how fast it/they may move.
 
Cooper's thoughts on Rule #1 were covered here, here is what he said in general about #2 in one of his books (not a quote, just the gist from memory). He was recommending dry-fire at the TV. But doesn't it violate rule #2? No, while he does not want to destroy his TV, he is willing to do so as opposed to something living like himself, family member pet etc. He can buy a new TV.
IIRC:
"I could live without a televisor, but I need my rifle skills."
:D
He liked Coors commercials and the requisite challenge of cycling the (bolt) action to "shoot" both O's.
 
IIRC:
"I could live without a televisor, but I need my rifle skills."
:D
He liked Coors commercials and the requisite challenge of cycling the (bolt) action to "shoot" both O's.
Heh, yeah that was the passage I was thinking of. "Televisor"
 
I approve of the three rules in the NRA Basic Pistol Class curriculum:

1. Always keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
3. Always keep the firearm unloaded until ready for use (obviously a carry gun is ready for use)

These can be debated at length as well but I believe they are a good start.

As to these, or any other rules, being for the ignorant, first timers, or occasional shooters, I've seen dangerous gun handling by experienced gun owners/shooter who have become complacent and careless. New shooters or at least those who bother to take our classes tend to listen to instruction and accept correction if they violate the rules (most often the finger on the trigger thing).


agreed, anyone (from tyro to expert) that becomes careless and complacent is an accident waiting to happen. i don't consider a shooter "experienced" unless that person has learned, and always applies, the basic gun handling skills.

and i especially agree with your statement about "... they are a good start". this process should never end for anyone.

murf
 
Couldn't possibly disagree more. The rules are for everyone, even if you think you have expert gun handling skills, it's overconfidence in ones skills that cause most accidents.


overconfidence in anyone causes problems. if you think you have expert gun handling skills you are very dangerous to everyone around you. there is always something more to learn on this extremely important subject. i hope everyone evolves from following the rules to learning the basic gun handling skills.

murf
 
I'm not sure how some of the highest regarded safety information developed by one of the most educated and highest regarded people ever in the "gun culture" can be called juvenile. Please continue to elaborate on this.
 
The reason I like the simplest phrasing of Rule #1, is that it is very easy to use the "unloaded" mentality as an excuse for poor habits.

The army relies heavily on empty weapons for safety, and it creates a general attitude of complacency and carelessness. How I try to explain it, is that you always have to handle all guns the same way. There are not separate "loaded" and "unloaded" activity lists for guns.
 
The difference is the explanation is simply defining the terms that I used. With Cooper's rules the explanation includes clarifying and describing all the times when the rules don't actually apply or aren't accurate.....
You keep going back to "accurate", but in doing so, you're missing the point. We're not talking about instructions for assembling furniture from Ikea.

Rather it's about attitude and mindset -- inculcating an attitude and mindset promoting safe gun handling on a hot range. If one carries a gun for protection, or keeps a loaded gun for protection at home, in his office or in his car, he is effectively on a hot range. A disciplined approach to gun handling safety suitable for a hot range would certainly do for a cold range. And if someone on a cold range forgets, he has turned the cold range into a hot range. The idea is to lay a solid foundation for good gun handling habits.

A lot of people have been shot with a gun thought to be unloaded. But it wasn't, was it? So when someone is holding a gun he thinks is unloaded he must be more inclined to be managing it incorrectly. If one's attitude and mindset is that the gun in his hand is a loaded gun, he will be [we hope] less inclined to do something dumb with it.

As a life member of the Amateur Trapshooting Association and having shot competitive trap for a bunch of years, including regularly at our State Championships and one year at the Grand American, I have to say that I'm embarrassed by the poor gun handling of some of my fellow trapshooters. Of course the Gunsite Four Rules aren't part of their culture, but nonetheless, I find it sad that some of them seem to have adopted standard practices inconsistent with those Rules of gun handling.

I recall an unintended discharge at my gun club in which the errant party wound up firing his thought to be unload, break action trap gun and spraying the clubhouse with number 7.5 shot. Fortunately, no one was standing at the service window of the clubhouse. If someone had been there, he would have been injured.

The shooter was a very competent, experienced, 27 yard handicap, registered competitive shooter. But he had not, apparently, been sufficiently inculcated into the mindset that all guns are always loaded, and thus forgot himself.

The fact is that the Gunsite Four Rules have proven themselves. They've been around and in use a long time in many places by many instructors. They have been the cornerstone of the safety mindset for thousands of students at Gunsite over the years. They have been embraced by top instructors. Every so often someone comes along to quibble about them, most usually with Rule One; but nothing ever seems to catch on.

You keep telling us that the Four Rules are wrong and don't work. Yet they have been ubiquitous and working well for perhaps forty plus years. Perhaps you should be asking why. Real life experience seems to indicate that they not as flawed as you contend. Maybe the disconnect is simply that you can't understand why do indeed indeed work.

And while you harp on accuracy, let's look at this inaccuracy in your construct:
...Generally speaking it's best to keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target, but getting a sight picture is not always possible. Anyone who has done any close quarters gunfighting training will know what I'm talking about. If you can get your sights on the target, then by all means do so but there is not always a guarantee that you will be able to use your sights.....
But the Rule says nothing about using or seeing your sights.

If you are going to shoot something and expect to hit it, your sights will be on target -- whether or not you are looking at your sights. Your bullet is going to go where your sights are aligned even if you're not looking at your sights. If your sights are not aligned on the target you will miss.

The reason I like the simplest phrasing of Rule #1, is that it is very easy to use the "unloaded" mentality as an excuse for poor habits.

The army relies heavily on empty weapons for safety, and it creates a general attitude of complacency and carelessness. How I try to explain it, is that you always have to handle all guns the same way. There are not separate "loaded" and "unloaded" activity lists for guns.
Correct and well stated.
 
I didn't include that because the point is to use rules that are accurate and relevant at all times. That rule is not.
Ah, but it is!

When you have a firearm in hand, it should be handled as though it is loaded. Period.
This way, the excuse that "I thought it was empty" is completely eliminated.

Memory is fallible. Even if my rational mind is 100% certain that it is empty, you couldn't pay me to point it at a loved one or myself and pull the trigger.

The rules aren't necessarily in place for the experts. It is there for training those who are not.
And then once good habits are developed and practiced...I suppose the experts can disregard the letter, so long as they follow the spirit of the rules.

But then again.....maybe not. I had a negligent discharge once upon a time after I'd dropped a magazine out of a 9mm baby eagle, and then pulled the trigger (testing double action pull) cuz I assumed it was empty.
So I won't be doing that again.

I grew up in a virtual armory and I'm still alive....so these rules are taught by me to my family as well.
 
Ah, but it is!

When you have a firearm in hand, it should be handled as though it is loaded. Period.
This way, the excuse that "I thought it was empty" is completely eliminated.

I can't really get on board with this. Let's take dry fire practice, practice drawing or whatever as an example. Using your system the only place you'd be able to do that would be at the range.

The real problem comes when people don't know how to clear, they'll drop the mag and think all is well, or won't notice a round that wasn't extracted when they worked the action.
 
I can't really get on board with this. Let's take dry fire practice, practice drawing or whatever as an example. Using your system the only place you'd be able to do that would be at the range.

The real problem comes when people don't know how to clear, they'll drop the mag and think all is well, or won't notice a round that wasn't extracted when they worked the action.
Okay, I'll give ya that.

But when you dry fire, do you point it at a person?
 
That's not the rule though, it's don't point at anything you don't wish to destroy. I don't want to destroy anything in my house.

Oy. Picture it all as if you're a child.

"Don't point this at mommy or me" says dad.
Child asks, "can I point it at the dog?"
"No"
"Can I point it at the car?"
"No"
"Can I point it at my stupid sister?"

On and on it goes, until finally, " for petes sake kid, just don't point it at anything you don't want destroyed".

These aren't for the rational mind that knows how to interpret the finer points of a thing, based on experience and wisdom.
They are for the lowest common denominator.

Aaand, I'm out. The rules are simple, and easy to follow.
You may interpret them as you wish..... But I kinda doubt you will improve on what Cooper has laid out.
 
Oy. Picture it all as if you're a child.

"Don't point this at mommy or me" says dad.
Child asks, "can I point it at the dog?"
"No"
"Can I point it at the car?"
"No"
"Can I point it at my stupid sister?"

On and on it goes, until finally, " for petes sake kid, just don't point it at anything you don't want destroyed".

These aren't for the rational mind that knows how to interpret the finer points of a thing, based on experience and wisdom.
They are for the lowest common denominator.

Aaand, I'm out. The rules are simple, and easy to follow.
You may interpret them as you wish..... But I kinda doubt you will improve on what Cooper has laid out.

Right, so like we're saying, the rules aren't all encompassing and certainly shouldn't be taken literally.
 
Want or wishing to destroy isn't the best phrasing. I've always preferred "willing" to destroy. That covers both living things we care about as well as non living objects in or around your house. If you're dry firing even if you're absolutely positively sure it's unloaded, you shouldn't point it at anything you wouldn't be willing to be destroyed should a bullet come out.

Every time this subject comes up it's like I feel so sorry for the horse every time.

Frank has really said all that needs to be said.

I follow Coops 4 like my life depended on it. To each their own.
 
Right, so like we're saying, the rules aren't all encompassing and certainly shouldn't be taken literally.
Wrong. The rules are all-encompassing and should most certainly be taken literally -- in the proper context.

These guidelines are the simplest way of creating a mindset (as others have noted) that avoids complacency (which those who live with, around and use guns daily tend to develop) AND prevent developing bad gun-handling habits.

Some here are way over-thinking the concept, and some here ... sadly, apparently just don't get it.
 
"finger off the trigger" should be taken literally all the time. consider it a "default" setting for your trigger finger (like the default settings on your cell phone). then, teach yourself to put your finger on the trigger at the appropriate time in the shot process. otherwise, "finger off the trigger" always!

as with all the "rules", they apply to, not only your trigger finger but, all the other trigger fingers around you. if you see a shooter handling a weapon with the finger inside the trigger guard, run and hide! or tell the range officer, or ask the shooter to get his finger off the trigger, or etc. that is all part of having a general awareness of correct gun handling for everyone. even if you follow the rules perfectly, the poor sot next to you can still ruin your day if they don't follow the rules.

i'm ocd on this subject because i think it is the most important part of shooting. everyone needs to learn gun handling skills and apply them consistently and constantly.

murf
 
Wrong. The rules are all-encompassing and should most certainly be taken literally -- in the proper context.

These guidelines are the simplest way of creating a mindset (as others have noted) that avoids complacency (which those who live with, around and use guns daily tend to develop) AND prevent developing bad gun-handling habits.

Some here are way over-thinking the concept, and some here ... sadly, apparently just don't get it.

You can't say something should be taken literally and then say it depends on the context. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The first rule, all guns are always loaded, is false in every context. All it would take is a simple edit "Assume all guns are loaded until physically and visibly checked" or something like that.
 
You can't say something should be taken literally and then say it depends on the context. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The first rule, all guns are always loaded, is false in every context. All it would take is a simple edit "Assume all guns are loaded until physically and visibly checked" or something like that.
rule number one should not be taken literally. like frank ettin said, it is a mindset. so, the concept has nothing to do with reality. rule one does not deal with whether a round is in the chamber, or not. it deals with the shooters concept of the condition of a gun (always loaded) and how that shooter should always deal with that gun (always loaded).

murf
 
You can't say something should be taken literally and then say it depends on the context. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The first rule, all guns are always loaded, is false in every context. All it would take is a simple edit "Assume all guns are loaded until physically and visibly checked" or something like that.
Ok, until you've checked it. And then for how long thereafter?

But, then again..,

I saw an old nylon 66 get checked by 3 different people at a gun store, and then discharge when the trigger was pulled, almost hitting my sister. Seems it wasn't extracting right.
 
Ok, until you've checked it. And then for how long thereafter?

But, then again..,

I saw an old nylon 66 get checked by 3 different people at a gun store, and then discharge when the trigger was pulled, almost hitting my sister. Seems it wasn't extracting right.

This goes back to people not understanding there's more to checking than a quick glance. Obviously it's easier on larger calibers when you can get a pinky in the chamber, but still.
 
I must be getting old. It seems that the younger generation need more clarification on just about everything.
This may have started back with Bill Clinton, when he needed the definition of sex.
I think God that a lawyer didn't come up with the basic 4 rules. We would've had a lot of certification and confusion.
The 4 basic rules are simple and easy to remember. I feel that the ones that seek certification have never been in a gun fight, pointed a real gun at a real person or been in combat.
I see no problem with an instructor expanding on the rules to get a point across, but to rewrite them for ones own certification, a waste of time.
 
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