What is a "DA/SA transition"?

I think when people are referring to "Transition" they are talking about the difference in finger reach on the trigger.

DA requires a longer reach, SA requires a shorter reach. The reach goes from long to short. A "transition" occurs.

IMO the only real struggle with DA/SA is the DA shot.

Once the pistol is fired, either from DA or SA the finger returns the the same position every time because it is now in SA.

I shoot them all the time and do not have an issue with the two different trigger presses.

The SA pull is (usually) significantly lighter than the DA pull, as well. So, people who aren't paying attention, and have just taken a DA shot, might try to "stage" the trigger, and get a ND in the process. It is akin to shooting one type of gun, laying it down, and immediately trying to repeat that shot with a completely different style of gun.

Long heavy pull goes to light short pull on the subsequents.

Because the SA trigger pull is so much lighter, if you are shooting rapid strings or double taps, it can lead to a somewhat premature discharge before the sights are fully back on target. I have been shooting DA/SA hammer-fired pistols quite a few years, and this is still something that happens to me on occasion. It is true that the reset distance and trigger position winds up being identical after either a DA or SA shot.

The transition can also require a somewhat compromised position of the trigger finger on the trigger shoe for some. This will depend on trigger pull weight for the DA trigger pull, the shooter's hand strength, and the trigger reach for the DA trigger. A lot of shooters who favor SA or striker-fired pistols like to apply the pad of the trigger finger to the trigger shoe. But if the DA trigger pull is on the heavy side, that finger position might not apply sufficient leverage for a smooth DA trigger pull, and more finger might need to be applied, even up to the crease of the distal knuckle in some cases. For leisurely shooting, one can simply reposition the trigger finger on the shoe after the DA trigger pull, but if training for self-defense it is probably best to maintain a consistent trigger finger position. So for some, the SA trigger pull may require positioning the trigger finger a bit differently from what the shooter is used to.

badkarmamib said:

The SA pull is (usually) significantly lighter than the DA pull, as well. So, people who aren't paying attention, and have just taken a DA shot, might try to "stage" the trigger, and get a ND in the process. It is akin to shooting one type of gun, laying it down, and immediately trying to repeat that shot with a completely different style of gun.

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If the gun has gone 'bang' and you haven't hit the de-cocker, you should know what kind of trigger to expect.

The only time I am staging a SA shot is for fun at long distances and that means I am being real careful and taking my time.
I have never staged a trigger in competition or practice at speed.

pblanc said:

Because the SA trigger pull is so much lighter, if you are shooting rapid strings or double taps, it can lead to a somewhat premature discharge before the sights are fully back on target. I have been shooting DA/SA hammer-fired pistols quite a few years, and this is still something that happens to me on occasion. It is true that the reset distance and trigger position winds up being identical after either a DA or SA shot.

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Interesting.
perhaps I haven't pushed myself to that level of speed yet, but I don't apply any trigger finger pressure until I have an acceptable sight picture.

pblanc said:

The transition can also require a somewhat compromised position of the trigger finger on the trigger shoe for some. This will depend on trigger pull weight for the DA trigger pull, the shooter's hand strength, and the trigger reach for the DA trigger. A lot of shooters who favor SA or striker-fired pistols like to apply the pad of the trigger finger to the trigger shoe. But if the DA trigger pull is on the heavy side, that finger position might not apply sufficient leverage for a smooth DA trigger pull, and more finger might need to be applied, even up to the crease of the distal knuckle in some cases. For leisurely shooting, one can simply reposition the trigger finger on the shoe after the DA trigger pull, but if training for self-defense it is probably best to maintain a consistent trigger finger position. So for some, the SA trigger pull may require positioning the trigger finger a bit differently from what the shooter is used to.

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This is true and a good point.
the DA pull can cause issues here.

My fix for not having a perfect trigger finger placement is making sure I have a tight support hand grip.

I don't get it either. I tend to ride the reset in striker guns so theres a "transition" there.

My issue with DA/SA is simply the long DA trigger hitting 2-3" off at speed from where I want it.

Prefer a shorter first pull myseld, striker or SAO.

There is a huge difference between shooting at the range, and shooting to save your life. At the range you have time to "think". When under the stress of having to make life and death decisions you don't; simple is better. Same exact trigger pull for every shot is better.

jmr40 said:

There is a huge difference between shooting at the range, and shooting to save your life.

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Agree.

jmr40 said:

At the range you have time to "think".

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Agree.

jmr40 said:

When under the stress of having to make life and death decisions you don't; simple is better.

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Agree.

jmr40 said:

Same exact trigger pull for every shot is better.

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Disagree.

Everyone has to choose for themselves what advantages and drawbacks they want to leverage.
SAO? well that means you have to work with a safety. Requires training.
Striker? Means you have to be careful with trigger (holstering and such). Requires training.
DA/SA? Means you have a heavy first trigger pull. Requires training.

There is a theme here.

What is right for me may not be right for you. That's cool.

This "Two triggers" thing is a mountain of a mole hill.

I never got what the problem is with the first DA shot.....as striker fired fans love to say..."it is about training", "it is a software issue not a hardware issue"...so train on that DA pull.....

I never had any problem landing my rounds where I wanted them to at typical SD engagement distances either in DA or SA...it is a non issue.

After doing two different cqb courses using the berretta M9 pistol I can say that I don’t like the DA/SA mix, even with a few thousand rounds down range drawing the firearm and firing a controlled pair where the rounds land near each other is difficult

It can be done, but I find it harder to train for. Perhaps I suck as a pistol shot, and compared to some here I do. For me The long DA pull usually goes low and left and then SA pull can easily fly high as you Try to hammer the target if you are in any way distracted or not focusing 90% on the trigger. This is in the context of rifle/pistol transitions, or drawing and engaging a threat or clearing rooms in a shoot house, night shoots, etc

I find it harder to be accurate and fast with, I can shoot the M9 very accurately, but I can shoot my glocks with good combat accuracy faster,

z7 said:

After doing two different cqb courses using the berretta M9 pistol I can say that I don’t like the DA/SA mix, even with a few thousand rounds down range drawing the firearm and firing a controlled pair where the rounds land near each other is difficult

It can be done, but I find it harder to train for. Perhaps I suck as a pistol shot, and compared to some here I do. For me The long DA pull usually goes low and left and then SA pull can easily fly high as you Try to hammer the target if you are in any way distracted or not focusing 90% on the trigger. This is in the context of rifle/pistol transitions, or drawing and engaging a threat or clearing rooms in a shoot house, night shoots, etc

I find it harder to be accurate and fast with, I can shoot the M9 very accurately, but I can shoot my glocks with good combat accuracy faster,

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Your opinion has merit. Thanks for posting.

Low and left is usually associated with anticipation of recoil.
Common on right handed shooters.

Once you engaged the first shot, did you de-cock it?
A typical DA/SA shooter will not de-cock until its time to re-holster.

Corpral_Agarn said:

Your opinion has merit. Thanks for posting.

Low and left is usually associated with anticipation of recoil.
Common on right handed shooters.

Once you engaged the first shot, did you de-cock it?
A typical DA/SA shooter will not de-cock until its time to re-holster.

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The decocker was used after the targets were serviced/threats eliminated, but that could be the better part of a magazine sometimes, think double taps on two or three targets including “failure to stop” drills (2-3 center mass and one or two to the head or pelvis) in a room or hallway where speed and efficiency are important, I found the DA/SA mix distracting to get good hits, it required me to focus on the trigger pull vs other things like footwork

It's introducing another variable into trigger control; this is far more of an issue (or perhaps ONLY an issue) when shooting fast.

It can be overcome with training-my first duty gun was a 5906, and after enough rounds I could 'snake eyes' the first two rounds at shorter ranges. The issue is that it DOES take practice, and (IMHO) that practice can be used for better things if your pistol has a consistent trigger.

Larry

I have shot a “perfect” score 240/240 on the navy pistol qualification three times, and 238/240 several other times. The M9 is accurate and the SA trigger portion is pretty nice, but as it DT guy said, the training could be better spent elsewhere. I would rather shot a Glock or m&p for a service weapon because the trigger never changes on you so the muscle memory comes quicker

"Same exact trigger pull for every shot is better."
I would think that if you are not a robot, this statement would be "the last word'. Can't see, if we are talking mechanical, how this would not be better/the best. If we are talking training I suppose one could shoot enough to train the subconscious to always think "first shot long pull, the next 15-16 will be light short pull" and, maybe, become as proficient as one shooting a 1911.
The SA/DA was not invented to increase hits nor accuracy. It was invented for safety reasons.
It is counter-intuitive to reason that a SA/DA is easier to shoot more accurately or faster than a SA. I have carried, fired, and competed with the 1911 for over 45 years. I also have a Smith 39 and a Smith 59.
Nawww. Does not compute.

I think the only time the SA pull on a firearm "surprises" me is when I am shooting the first magazine through it. I have long preferred DA/SA firearms over striker fired weapons that have the same trigger pull.

herrwalther said:

I think the only time the SA pull on a firearm "surprises" me is when I am shooting the first magazine through it. I have long preferred DA/SA firearms over striker fired weapons that have the same trigger pull.

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I agree; and if used for defensive purposes, that's the magazine that will count.

Larry

Corpral_Agarn said:

I think when people are referring to "Transition" they are talking about the difference in finger reach on the trigger.

DA requires a longer reach, SA requires a shorter reach. The reach goes from long to short. A "transition" occurs.

IMO the only real struggle with DA/SA is the DA shot.

Once the pistol is fired, either from DA or SA the finger returns the the same position every time because it is now in SA.

I shoot them all the time and do not have an issue with the two different trigger presses.

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This. The issues come up regarding the mechanism in that it requires more training to accurately fire what we called the "presentation shot", or first shot (in DA) after the weapon is "presented". or drawn. The transition into single action can (and usually does) effect the speed and accuracy of subsequent shots- pro-timers don't lie. In addition, the user must remember to de-cock the piece before re-holstering. All of this requires a set of fine motor skills to be called on in a stressful situation (like a gunfight) that will be largely absent if the pistol is striker fired or single action, with the exception of engaging the safety if using a SA like a 1911.

FL-NC said:

This. The issues come up regarding the mechanism in that it requires more training to accurately fire what we called the "presentation shot", or first shot (in DA) after the weapon is "presented". or drawn. The transition into single action can (and usually does) effect the speed and accuracy of subsequent shots- pro-timers don't lie.

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The "pro-timers" are showing that DA/SA guns are at least as fast as striker guns in competition, at least for shooters who practice a significant amount.

For shooters who aren't really shooters at all - like most cops, for instance - the challenge of the DA trigger is probably an actual impediment.

A small amount of training eliminates the so-called "problem" for all but the most addle-headed.

Jeff Cooper helped significantly to cause this problem because he didn't like DA/SA guns and spent endless amounts of ink attacking them. The criticism persisted long after he was gone. To this day I still don't understand why people lionize him so. To me he was the epitome of the grumpy old man who believed his way was the only correct way.

Having said that, I think there are some better options than the traditional DA/SA trigger these days. The Sig DAK and H&K LEM are both consistent trigger pulls that are both light and smooth. So is the Kahr, although it is a striker fired and not hammer fired example.