Question from a complete newb

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Bixster_inc

Bixster_inc

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Hello all,

I have just leapt into the world of reloading and I’m starting off with reloading better/cheaper but not too fancy than off the shelf Rem .223 for general plinking out of my AR15’s and to eventually graduate up to more precise reloads for my LR-308 & 6.5 CM bolt gun. I’m sure this has been asked to death but I’m not quite grasping the answers I’m reading elsewhere.

I’m working with brass that has been ejected from about 4 or 5 different AR15’s. First I ran everything through my tumbler, sorted commercial from milsurp, tossed the sketchy pieces along with some tulammo brass simply because of the name. Using a Hornady headspace comparator I measured 10 live rounds out of my grab box (a mixture of whatever is on sale and emptied into a plastic box) and ended up with measurements between 1.455” and 1.457”. Measuring at least 20 casings out of the fired bucket I ended up with either 1.461” or 1.462” readings. Using what I’d read everywhere I want to bump the shoulder down .002-.004 so I split the difference and went .003 shooting for a new reading of 1.458” using the comparator after a FL resize. Further reading, online videos and conversations led me to purchase a Dillon head space gauge to double check what I’d done. All the casings slid in and out easily and told me that trimming wouldn’t be required. I felt like I was on the right track and this reloading thing was going to be easy for me until I decided to check cases yet to be resized in the head space gauge and they fit just as comfortably as unfired factory ammo and resized brass.

So here’s the question. What do I trust? The comparator? The head space gauge? Both? I feel after everything I’ve absorbed the head space gauge should’ve told me I need to resize. My components and digital scale are due to arrive Saturday so I’d like to be seating my first rounds by Sunday but not unless I’m sure I’m doing it right so far.

Thanks in advance.
 
wrench459 said:
Your gun.
Click to expand...

So use the 1.461-62” that came out of them and continue to knock down .002-4” and move on or are you talking guage the chamber of each one and load accordingly for each rifle? If it’s the latter I’d really rather create a round for all 3 and get my improvements even if minor from more consistent powder charges and bullet seating depths over the factory stuff.
 
Bixster_inc said:
So here’s the question. What do I trust? The comparator? The head space gauge?
Click to expand...
The head space gauge. Use it to set up your sizer. Set the sizer so all of the cases fall within min and max of the gauge. Mixed brass is not all going to size the same. Then later when you have brass fired in your gun you can use the gauge or the comparator to bump the shoulder a little less if you want to.
Bixster_inc said:
eventually graduate up to more precise reloads f
Click to expand...
Buy quality new brass.
 
Walkalong said:
The head space gauge. Use it to set up your sizer. Set the sizer so all of the cases fall within min and max of the gauge. Mixed brass is not all going to size the same. Then later when you have brass fired in your gun you can use the gauge or the comparator to bump the shoulder a little less if you want to.


Buy quality new brass.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.

All the brass I’m using came from either one of the 3 rifles I use regularly or my friend I shoot with’s gun which would also be an AR15. I guess the only thing that alarmed me is the brass I hadn’t resized yet falling comfortably into that headspace gauge when I thought it’d tell me I need to resize it. Sounds like from the responses I got so far is I’m way over thinking it.

Any recommendations on new brass later down the road?

Thanks.
 
Starline makes exceptional brass.
I use it almost exclusively.

They may have fit the head space guage, but all the cases will need to be sized to hold a projectile anyway.

Welcome to The High Road! A clean, well lighted establishment! :)
 
The comparator can lie to you in an AR. Not a good method, typically. I prefer a bolt lock method, or to determine my chamber headspace with the gas off, if using an AGB (which all of my personal AR’s use).
 
Bixster_inc said:
Absolutely. Any recommendations brand wise?[/QUOTE
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Demi-human said:
Starline makes exceptional brass.
I use it almost exclusively.

They may have fit the head space guage, but all the cases will need to be sized to hold a projectile anyway.

Welcome to The High Road! A clean, well lighted establishment! :)
Click to expand...


I will definitely look into Starline and thank you for the warm welcome, I look forward to picking some brains outside of my circle and hopefully being able to contribute knowledge upon others soon.
 
I would question the head space gauge too if it passed un-sized brass from a AR. Best to check it with a set of Go-NoGo gauges. Use your chamber to confirm but it will require you to remove the ejector. Pulling brass out under pressure always stretches it. I have min spec chambers on most of my AR's with adj gas blocks choked down. These will almost fit in a loose chamber, still fail the case gauge. But not by much, 0.001"-0.002". Use a straight edge to run over the gauge to check length. If close you may not be able to tell just by looking. The power of the bolt closing can move the shoulder back 0.002" without any problem.
 
Bixster_inc said:
I guess the only thing that alarmed me is the brass I hadn’t resized yet falling comfortably into that headspace gauge when I thought it’d tell me I need to resize it.
Click to expand...
It is a "headspace" gauge, not a "case" gauge. It only tells you the distance from the shoulder to the head, not the diameter. There are true case gauges (Hornady and Sheridan come to mind).

The purpose of the headspace gauge is to tell you how far the shoulder was pushed forward from firing, so you can then determine how to set your sizing die to bump the shoulder back. The diameters are opened up in the headspace gauge so that fired rounds will fit.

Full-length resize the cases that you have, so that you know they will all chamber in your gun. Once you have fired them in your gun, you can measure the headspace of the fired rounds and then bump them back ~0.004" or so. At least that is what I do.
 
wrench459 said:
Your gun.
Click to expand...
And your eyes. Learn how to spot bad brass. If you trust your gun to sort it out, you may end up with a separated neck stuck in the chamber. Ask me how I know....:(. I'm going to need a reamer to get it out, the Brownell's tool isn't budging it.

Toprudder said:
Full-length resize the cases that you have, so that you know they will all chamber in your gun. Once you have fired them in your gun, you can measure the headspace of the fired rounds and then bump them back ~0.004" or so. At least that is what I do.
Click to expand...
I small base size, because mine might be fired in 3 different AR's or a bolt gun.
 
Welcome.

In my opinion only and for what it is worth, you are already mixing and matching brass of varying conditions, thickness, pressure changes and whatnot. Save a ton of aggravation, time and effort and start off with brand new, unfired brass of your choice. This not a cheap "hobby". You will be compounding problems and frustration unless you start fresh.
 
Guys mix and match 5.56/223 brass every day, in much greater numbers than most folks might expect. If you’re expecting precision, sort out a uniform lot of single headstamp brass, sell or trade the rest. If you’re loading for volume, work up a middle range load and be happy with 1.5-2.5moa, or worse.

On the cheap, get a set of Lee 223rem dies, as the standard Lee 223 die IS a small base spec, and the entire set is as cheap or cheaper than most single small base sizers in other brands.

Chamber type headspace “gauges” tell you nothing about your actual rifle chamber, so don’t let yourself get too distracted.

Do your reloaders’ due diligence. Try a piece of brass in each rifle you want to reload, if none close without force, start sizing and testing the rifles again - you’ll be able to find your longest and smallest chambers in this way. Size for the smallest, and live your life happy.
 
First K.I.S.S.! For a new reloader I would recommend just full length sizing and a caliper to measure OAL. Gauges often lead to confusion to newer reloaders, especially case/cartridge gauges. F/L size and measure the case length, trim if too long or if anywhere in between min and max go to next step. I would suggest using the OAL recommendations from the bullet manufacturer (Hornady bullets, use Hornady data. Speer bullets, Speer data, etc.). If you are using bullets by a company that doesn't publish any data, find an equivalent bullet from one that does and use their data, same size, weight, and profile. As long as your reloads fit the magazine and chamber, you are starting right. I use "distance to lands/seating depth" as the last item on a long list for developing accurate loads (my most accurate loads from my 308 is 7/8" @ 100 with the Hornady bullets seated to Hornady's recommended OAL).

Have you read The ABCs of Reloading? It's an excellent text for new reloaders and answers 99% of the questions about methods, components and equipment. One problem with forums, a new reloader can ask a basic, easy question and the answers often morph into discussions of advanced reloading techniques and theory. Not all bad but the new reloader is often left more confused than before he asked the question...
 
I have nothing constructive to add except listen to the advise here. There are some very good and valid advice in the above posts. Lost of wisdom on this forum, and I have learned a lot more here than I ever could have otherwise.

-jeff
 
mdi said:
First K.I.S.S.! For a new reloader I would recommend just full length sizing and a caliper to measure OAL. Gauges often lead to confusion to newer reloaders, especially case/cartridge gauges. F/L size and measure the case length, trim if too long or if anywhere in between min and max go to next step.
Click to expand...
Truth be known, that is exactly how I started out. The headspace/case gauges can come later. :thumbup:
 
Everybody has a little different method. Mine is simpler than what you are doing. It has positives and negatives.

I don't fret about headspace gauges. I just fully resize the brass for my AR, and neck size it for my bolt action. Sizing dies are supposed to be built to the correct dimensions. The instructions for my dies say to screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, then another 1/4 to 1/3 turn more.

The neck sized brass will just about never wear out. The full length stuff will eventually get a case head separation, especially if your chamber is a little longer than it should be. My rifles don't seem to have that problem. I discard the brass before it gets close to separation.

The local LEOs share the range where I shoot. If you go there after they have been shooting, you can pick up hundreds of once fired Lake City cases. I have collected thousands of them. Lake City and Federal have more case capacity than other brands I have measured. I use only LC. Yeah, it's a pain decrimping it, but it is good quality brass. I do not mix headstamps.

I keep my batches of brass segregated, so I know how many times each has been fired. Retiring the old stuff is less hassle than fiddling with setting the sizing die up a few thousandths.

I do anneal every once in a while. That helps. https://videos.utahgunexchange.com/watch/easy-quick-uniform-brass-annealing-mp4_5LGz1CUbtZKexcm.html
 
Last edited:
entropy said:
And your eyes. Learn how to spot bad brass. If you trust your gun to sort it out, you may end up with a separated neck stuck in the chamber. Ask me how I know....:(. I'm going to need a reamer to get it out, the Brownell's tool isn't budging it.


I small base size, because mine might be fired in 3 different AR's or a bolt gun.
Click to expand...

A lot of times you can use a cleaning brush to extract the neck. Push it in then pull back before you go all the way through it. Normally since the bristles do not like moving backwards they will grab it. May need to use a over size brush.
 
If the broken shell extractor didn't budge it , I doubt a brush will, but it doesn't cost anything to try. I also tried a bullet, that didn't work.
 
entropy said:
I small base size, because mine might be fired in 3 different AR's or a bolt gun.
Click to expand...

Varminterror said:
On the cheap, get a set of Lee 223rem dies, as the standard Lee 223 die IS a small base spec, and the entire set is as cheap or cheaper than most single small base sizers in other brands.
Click to expand...

Never have had a problem where I thought I might need a small-base sizing die. I have been using the Redding die, with the optional carbide expander.
 
I would also start simple. Just sort some brass to same headstamp and full length resize, load, and run with it. After 4-5 reloads how is the brass doing. Have you had to trim the brass? Has the ring appeared showing imminent incipient case head separation? I would fire a batch of 100 or so until some fail for whatever reason (more than one or three) then step back a couple reloads and call it good case life then leave it at that. After reloading for some time while gaining experience of what to expect, THEN is the time to start fooling around with making the rounds "better". I always FL resize for semi auto (for positive feeding) and bump the necks (partial FL size) for bolt type/single shot guns (longer case life without separations). I also anneal the necks after 3 reloads for longer case life. Basically it comes down to how much brass prep time is it worth for the required amount of precision you want. Life is always full of compromises.;)
 
mdi said:
One problem with forums, a new reloader can ask a basic, easy question and the answers often morph into discussions of advanced reloading techniques and theory. Not all bad but the new reloader is often left more confused than before he asked the question...
Click to expand...

You don’t say! Kidding, I appreciate all the information and I can refer back later on as I get more into it. I bought the Lyman 50th edition which does have a thorough section on the basics. I’m not shy about picking up extra reading material so I’ll grab your recomendation on my next trip to the gun store.
 
FROGO207 said:
I would also start simple. Just sort some brass to same headstamp and full length resize, load, and run with it. After 4-5 reloads how is the brass doing. Have you had to trim the brass? Has the ring appeared showing imminent incipient case head separation? I would fire a batch of 100 or so until some fail for whatever reason (more than one or three) then step back a couple reloads and call it good case life then leave it at that. After reloading for some time while gaining experience of what to expect, THEN is the time to start fooling around with making the rounds "better". I always FL resize for semi auto (for positive feeding) and bump the necks (partial FL size) for bolt type/single shot guns (longer case life without separations). I also anneal the necks after 3 reloads for longer case life. Basically it comes down to how much brass prep time is it worth for the required amount of precision you want. Life is always full of compromises.;)
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Right now I just want to learn to make safe reliable rounds that I’m sure will still end up cheaper/better than the bulk factory stuff I buy and as I learn the process the rounds will only get better.
 
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