I’m saying H110 is the WRONG choice for .357 snub nose revolvers. A much better choice would be Ramshot’s True Blue because it has a much faster burn rate.
When is a barrel too short for a .357 magnum?
- Thread starter jski
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gotboostvr
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What ever powder produces higher velocities in a longer barrel, will also produce higher velocities in shorter barrels.
.357
158 XTP
2.5" 998fps
3" 1120fps
3.5" 1214fps
4" 1289fps
4.5 1350fps
I used Pauls .357 data as a reference for QLs outputs, and while QL reaches similar velocity conclusions as Pauls data go, its using about 2gr more powder. What ive found with QL, at least in rifle cartridges, is that it will usually be pretty close for a given component combinations in terms of velocity and pressure, but you have to adjust specifics to get it to duplicate charge/velocity for a given load/firearm.
9mm+p
158 XTP
Using a .357dia projectile wont USUALLY work in a 9mm unless loaded really long due to bulging the case. I shot some from my eaa witness, loaded all the way out to the front of the mag, so its possible but neither effective, or recommended. I left length stock at 1.169. Im positive loaded like that theres no way you could chamber a round.
2.5" 953fps
3" 1003fps
3.5" 1043fps
4" 1075fps
I should say my personal experience loading for the 9 and .357, is limited to a 4.5" 9mm, and a 16.25" .357.
I never equaled book data from my .357 rifle, simply because I was unwilling to push loads past what was listed because I have no idea how to read pressure signs on a levergun, much less a pistol cal levergun.
It is quite easy to see for the simplest mind that even a .38 Special can be loaded to a higher velocity than a 9mm when fired from similar guns, given the same peak pressure limits.
I had found that the .357 case offers only a little or negligible advantage when compared to .38 Special cases in the shortest barrels when a 35,000 psi peak pressure limit was used. However, these findings were primarily related to jacketed lead bullets of 125 gr. I later found that the .357 case offers a very meaningful advantage when shooting all-copper bullets of 140 gr. or more that are longer for a given mass than lead. I appreciate the performance of the 140 gr. Barnes XPB, but it is even longer than a 158 gr. jacketed or lead bullet, and is certainly not practical in a 9mm case.
It should be obvious the 9mm has no ballistic advantage compared to the .38 Special unless you arbitrarily limit the .38's pressure for the sake of curios, relics and replicas. Where the 9mm does have an advantage is fitting in shorter and narrower grip frames, and double-stacking to increase magazine capacity. I cannot see any advantage in a revolver unless the cylinder was shortened, which I have never seen.
I had found that the .357 case offers only a little or negligible advantage when compared to .38 Special cases in the shortest barrels when a 35,000 psi peak pressure limit was used. However, these findings were primarily related to jacketed lead bullets of 125 gr. I later found that the .357 case offers a very meaningful advantage when shooting all-copper bullets of 140 gr. or more that are longer for a given mass than lead. I appreciate the performance of the 140 gr. Barnes XPB, but it is even longer than a 158 gr. jacketed or lead bullet, and is certainly not practical in a 9mm case.
It should be obvious the 9mm has no ballistic advantage compared to the .38 Special unless you arbitrarily limit the .38's pressure for the sake of curios, relics and replicas. Where the 9mm does have an advantage is fitting in shorter and narrower grip frames, and double-stacking to increase magazine capacity. I cannot see any advantage in a revolver unless the cylinder was shortened, which I have never seen.
Jeb Stuart
member
Would not surprise me in some place like New Jersey. Or some town in Maxine Waters stronghold.(Where the goal is to have as many bad guys well armed and the cops at the disadvantage)
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Bingo! Powders like H110 or Lil Gun will always yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. I get 1480fps out of a 3" model 60 and a 125gr XTP. Unique is 260fps slower at the same pressure.
It's a myth that powder burns all the way down the barrel or that faster powders are better in shorter barrels.
The Bushmaster
Member
7.8 grains of W-231 under a 140 grain Remington SJHP with a CCI 550 primer nets me 1135 fps from a 2 1/2" Mod 19.
I can't say for certain, but I can make some very good guesses.
First of all, it is accurate data based on how they measured it. They actually used one piece test barrels (not revolvers) for the data collection so it was much simpler to actually measure the barrels conventionally during the testing process. Trying to correct it for various cylinder lengths and cylinder gaps, especially when there was no actual cylinder gap in the test barrel would be tedious, misleading, and could hardly be expected to provide more accurate results than what they did.
Providing the conventional measurement (along with additional testing they did that compares various cylinder gaps and their chronograph data from various production model firearms) allows an interested reader to make a reasonably accurate adjustment to their particular revolver--if they are shooting a revolver. And, of course, not all guns chambered for "revolver calibers" are revolvers.
Finally, the data's primary value, IMO, isn't in the absolute velocity readings provided. The minor differences in various individual guns will introduce significant variations in velocity--sufficient variations that trying to say that, because a particular gun with a barrel X" long shoots at Y velocity then my gun with a barrel X" long should also shoot with Y velocity, is going to be problematic if a high degree of accuracy is desired. However, the velocity CHANGE as a barrel length changes should be pretty consistent. I've always considered the velocity differences due to length changes to be the primary value of the data.
.308 Norma
Member
I agree with you completely, labnoti. There are some people though that claim faster reloads with moon clips. I'm going to stick with my 38 snub and a speed loader.
Jeb Stuart
member
Forget all the maddening data. Take whatever caliber you have and get out to the range and start running a lot of ammo down range. 357, 9mm, 38, all mean nothing if you can't hit the side of a barn door. If you can run 200 rds of 357 in a training session each week, then great my hat is off to you. I can't, will stick to one I can.
Yep that's us. Over 6000 corrections officers
Livin_Cincy
Member
Sherif Andy Taylor does not let Deputy Fife... I saw it the other day.
Are you 100% certain of that statement because it seems counterintuitive.
It would seem obvious that you would want the powder to be completely burned before the bullet exits the barrel.
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Zaydok Allen
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Trust Craig.
It's not just a matter of the completeness of the burn, but the peak pressure and pressure curve that slower burning powders create.
Same peak pressure, but slower burn rate, and you have greater time for the burning powder to exert force on the projectile. Which yields greater muzzle velocity. Simplified explanation but the point is some powders do different things.
However, higher velocities do not mean better accuracy, and if you go to a solid copper slug, a faster burning powder may be needed for a few reasons, all of which should be asked about and discussed in the reloading forum.
ColeK
Member
Personally I do not what a 357 with a barrel less than 3" on a S&W Model 60 SS. Any thing lighter than 3" barreled S&W Model 60 is too hard on my hand.
dickydalton
Member
I haven't chronographed any 357 reloads in years but, Underwood 38 Special +P 125 grain hollow points exit my 2.25" SP 101 at 1180 to 1197 FPS. I can only assume I can beat that reloading 357 Mags.
Mosin Bubba
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Personally, I wouldn't take a .357 in anything 3" or shorter. It's not so much about the ballistics below that length, as it is about the noise, flash, and recoil simply making the gun difficult to shoot well.
harrygunner
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My chrono results from my S&W 640-1 averaged 1240 ft/s (540 ft-lb) using Buffalo Bore's 158gr JHC .357 Mag rounds. That revolver has a 2.125" barrel.
That's in the ballpark of BB's 155gr .40 S&W performance from a Sig P229.
That's in the ballpark of BB's 155gr .40 S&W performance from a Sig P229.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The myth is born of the misconception of when the powder actually burns. I assume because folks think muzzle flash is burning powder. The powder is burned by the time the bullet reaches the forcing cone, faster powders will be consumed before the bullet leaves the case. What is left are expanding gases. Slower powders simply produce a greater volume of expanding gases and are able to work against the bullet for a longer period of time. This is why H110 will outrun anything faster, regardless of barrel length. Muzzle flash is simply what happens as the gases react with the atmosphere.
Alaskan Ironworker
Member
Dpris, can you scrape it out and reuse it?!
Indigo22
Member
I have fired a LCR in 9mm. It is a beast. Not more than 10 minutes later the owners wife was shooting factory defense rated ammo and experienced the bullets backing out under recoil. The third round went poof instead of bang locking up the cylinder. Fortunately it only took a little bit of force to push the bullet back into the cylinder so that it could be opened up for inspection. 2 rounds fired normal, 3rd poofed, 4th round the bullet was fully out of the case spilling powder and bullet as it was dumpped, 5th was half the way backed out. ... Was it an ammo related bad crimp? ... He had previously used rounds from this same box for his autoloader, functioned without issue safely. We both felt it was more likely the stout recoil from the little revolver that was causing the issue along with the taper crimp that autoloader cartridges use.
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