When is a barrel too short for a .357 magnum?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by jski, Sep 1, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jski

    jski Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,280
    Location:
    Florida
    I’m saying H110 is the WRONG choice for .357 snub nose revolvers. A much better choice would be Ramshot’s True Blue because it has a much faster burn rate.
     
  2. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,971
    What ever powder produces higher velocities in a longer barrel, will also produce higher velocities in shorter barrels.
     
    Dave T, tbob38, warnerwh and 3 others like this.
  3. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13,770
    Location:
    Hawaii
    .357
    158 XTP
    2.5" 998fps
    3" 1120fps
    3.5" 1214fps
    4" 1289fps
    4.5 1350fps

    I used Pauls .357 data as a reference for QLs outputs, and while QL reaches similar velocity conclusions as Pauls data go, its using about 2gr more powder. What ive found with QL, at least in rifle cartridges, is that it will usually be pretty close for a given component combinations in terms of velocity and pressure, but you have to adjust specifics to get it to duplicate charge/velocity for a given load/firearm.

    9mm+p
    158 XTP
    Using a .357dia projectile wont USUALLY work in a 9mm unless loaded really long due to bulging the case. I shot some from my eaa witness, loaded all the way out to the front of the mag, so its possible but neither effective, or recommended. I left length stock at 1.169. Im positive loaded like that theres no way you could chamber a round.

    2.5" 953fps
    3" 1003fps
    3.5" 1043fps
    4" 1075fps


    I should say my personal experience loading for the 9 and .357, is limited to a 4.5" 9mm, and a 16.25" .357.
    I never equaled book data from my .357 rifle, simply because I was unwilling to push loads past what was listed because I have no idea how to read pressure signs on a levergun, much less a pistol cal levergun.
     
    gotboostvr likes this.
  4. labnoti

    labnoti Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,892
    It is quite easy to see for the simplest mind that even a .38 Special can be loaded to a higher velocity than a 9mm when fired from similar guns, given the same peak pressure limits.

    I had found that the .357 case offers only a little or negligible advantage when compared to .38 Special cases in the shortest barrels when a 35,000 psi peak pressure limit was used. However, these findings were primarily related to jacketed lead bullets of 125 gr. I later found that the .357 case offers a very meaningful advantage when shooting all-copper bullets of 140 gr. or more that are longer for a given mass than lead. I appreciate the performance of the 140 gr. Barnes XPB, but it is even longer than a 158 gr. jacketed or lead bullet, and is certainly not practical in a 9mm case.

    It should be obvious the 9mm has no ballistic advantage compared to the .38 Special unless you arbitrarily limit the .38's pressure for the sake of curios, relics and replicas. Where the 9mm does have an advantage is fitting in shorter and narrower grip frames, and double-stacking to increase magazine capacity. I cannot see any advantage in a revolver unless the cylinder was shortened, which I have never seen.
     
    tbob38 and captain awesome like this.
  5. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    5,488
    There's actually a law enforcement agency in existence today that prohibits carry with a loaded-chamber auto-pistol?????
    Denis
     
    Jeb Stuart likes this.
  6. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,260
    Location:
    Confederate Country and proud of it!
    Would not surprise me in some place like New Jersey. Or some town in Maxine Waters stronghold.(Where the goal is to have as many bad guys well armed and the cops at the disadvantage)
     
  7. CraigC
    • Contributing Member

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    20,247
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    Bingo! Powders like H110 or Lil Gun will always yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. I get 1480fps out of a 3" model 60 and a 125gr XTP. Unique is 260fps slower at the same pressure.

    It's a myth that powder burns all the way down the barrel or that faster powders are better in shorter barrels.
     
    Dave T, tbob38, warnerwh and 2 others like this.
  8. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Messages:
    8,069
    Location:
    Ava, Missouri
    7.8 grains of W-231 under a 140 grain Remington SJHP with a CCI 550 primer nets me 1135 fps from a 2 1/2" Mod 19.
     
  9. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    16,879
    Location:
    DFW Area
    I can't say for certain, but I can make some very good guesses.

    First of all, it is accurate data based on how they measured it. They actually used one piece test barrels (not revolvers) for the data collection so it was much simpler to actually measure the barrels conventionally during the testing process. Trying to correct it for various cylinder lengths and cylinder gaps, especially when there was no actual cylinder gap in the test barrel would be tedious, misleading, and could hardly be expected to provide more accurate results than what they did.

    Providing the conventional measurement (along with additional testing they did that compares various cylinder gaps and their chronograph data from various production model firearms) allows an interested reader to make a reasonably accurate adjustment to their particular revolver--if they are shooting a revolver. And, of course, not all guns chambered for "revolver calibers" are revolvers.

    Finally, the data's primary value, IMO, isn't in the absolute velocity readings provided. The minor differences in various individual guns will introduce significant variations in velocity--sufficient variations that trying to say that, because a particular gun with a barrel X" long shoots at Y velocity then my gun with a barrel X" long should also shoot with Y velocity, is going to be problematic if a high degree of accuracy is desired. However, the velocity CHANGE as a barrel length changes should be pretty consistent. I've always considered the velocity differences due to length changes to be the primary value of the data.
     
  10. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,209
    Location:
    SE Idaho
    I agree with you completely, labnoti. There are some people though that claim faster reloads with moon clips. I'm going to stick with my 38 snub and a speed loader.;)
     
  11. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,260
    Location:
    Confederate Country and proud of it!
    Forget all the maddening data. Take whatever caliber you have and get out to the range and start running a lot of ammo down range. 357, 9mm, 38, all mean nothing if you can't hit the side of a barn door. If you can run 200 rds of 357 in a training session each week, then great my hat is off to you. I can't, will stick to one I can.
     
    Dave T, TTv2 and mcb like this.
  12. Sarge7402

    Sarge7402 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Virginia
    Yep that's us. Over 6000 corrections officers
     
    Livin_Cincy likes this.
  13. Livin_Cincy

    Livin_Cincy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Messages:
    179
    Location:
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Sherif Andy Taylor does not let Deputy Fife... I saw it the other day.
     
  14. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    5,488
    An incredible degree of administrative stupidity, unbelievable in modern times.
    I feel for you.
    Denis
     
    Dave T and Lucky Derby like this.
  15. jski

    jski Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,280
    Location:
    Florida
    Are you 100% certain of that statement because it seems counterintuitive.

    It would seem obvious that you would want the powder to be completely burned before the bullet exits the barrel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  16. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    12,650
    Trust Craig.

    It's not just a matter of the completeness of the burn, but the peak pressure and pressure curve that slower burning powders create.

    Same peak pressure, but slower burn rate, and you have greater time for the burning powder to exert force on the projectile. Which yields greater muzzle velocity. Simplified explanation but the point is some powders do different things.

    However, higher velocities do not mean better accuracy, and if you go to a solid copper slug, a faster burning powder may be needed for a few reasons, all of which should be asked about and discussed in the reloading forum.
     
    gotboostvr and .308 Norma like this.
  17. ColeK

    ColeK Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2008
    Messages:
    309
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Personally I do not what a 357 with a barrel less than 3" on a S&W Model 60 SS. Any thing lighter than 3" barreled S&W Model 60 is too hard on my hand.
     
    Mosin Bubba and .308 Norma like this.
  18. dickydalton

    dickydalton Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,618
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I haven't chronographed any 357 reloads in years but, Underwood 38 Special +P 125 grain hollow points exit my 2.25" SP 101 at 1180 to 1197 FPS. I can only assume I can beat that reloading 357 Mags.
     
  19. Mosin Bubba

    Mosin Bubba Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,692
    Personally, I wouldn't take a .357 in anything 3" or shorter. It's not so much about the ballistics below that length, as it is about the noise, flash, and recoil simply making the gun difficult to shoot well.
     
  20. harrygunner

    harrygunner Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,045
    My chrono results from my S&W 640-1 averaged 1240 ft/s (540 ft-lb) using Buffalo Bore's 158gr JHC .357 Mag rounds. That revolver has a 2.125" barrel.

    That's in the ballpark of BB's 155gr .40 S&W performance from a Sig P229.
     
  21. CraigC
    • Contributing Member

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    20,247
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    The myth is born of the misconception of when the powder actually burns. I assume because folks think muzzle flash is burning powder. The powder is burned by the time the bullet reaches the forcing cone, faster powders will be consumed before the bullet leaves the case. What is left are expanding gases. Slower powders simply produce a greater volume of expanding gases and are able to work against the bullet for a longer period of time. This is why H110 will outrun anything faster, regardless of barrel length. Muzzle flash is simply what happens as the gases react with the atmosphere.
     
  22. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    5,488
    Whyfore do 2400 leave unburned flakes in my barrels? :)
    Denis
     
    sequins and dickydalton like this.
  23. Alaskan Ironworker

    Alaskan Ironworker Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    874
    Location:
    Wasilla
    Dpris, can you scrape it out and reuse it?!
     
  24. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    5,488
    Could patch it out dry, shake the flakes off & re-use, I suppose.
    Never thought of that. :)
    Denis
     
  25. Indigo22

    Indigo22 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2003
    Messages:
    134
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    I have fired a LCR in 9mm. It is a beast. Not more than 10 minutes later the owners wife was shooting factory defense rated ammo and experienced the bullets backing out under recoil. The third round went poof instead of bang locking up the cylinder. Fortunately it only took a little bit of force to push the bullet back into the cylinder so that it could be opened up for inspection. 2 rounds fired normal, 3rd poofed, 4th round the bullet was fully out of the case spilling powder and bullet as it was dumpped, 5th was half the way backed out. ... Was it an ammo related bad crimp? ... He had previously used rounds from this same box for his autoloader, functioned without issue safely. We both felt it was more likely the stout recoil from the little revolver that was causing the issue along with the taper crimp that autoloader cartridges use.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice