38 Special vs 357 Magnum - Snub Nose

Jack B. said:

I bought a .357 LCR. I reload and wanted loads in between .357 magnum and 38 special +P. I was worried about a 38 special +P pistol might have troubles with hot 38 special +P loads so I bought the .357 magnum LCR so I knew it would be safe to handle hot 38 special +P loads. Worked out great.

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I used a similar thought process when I purchased my LCR357. I purchased it with no intention of ever shooting .357 loads with it. But I can if I want to someday. What I really wanted was the heavier frame and the additional weight to smooth out whatever .38 Spec loads I put thru it. By that I mean the long term durability the stronger frame provides and of course the reduced recoil.

I practice with Remington .38 Special +P 125 gr SJHP all the time and have no recoil issues. I carry .38 Special ARX ammo in 77 grain

I only have 2 . An SP101 and an LCR, both in .357 . I shoot 38+p most of the time but do occasionally practice with 357 . It's always good to have choices depending on circumstances, and what ammo is available. Having a bit beefier frame and a couple more ounces in weight is a plus as far as I am concerned.as I'm a big fan of heavier bullets and stout loads.

I didn't vote.

In a lightweight 2" revolver I find .357 magnum to be too much of a handful. .38+P is just about right in a 642 or 442.

Add an extra inch to the barrel as well as a steel frame, and .357 magnum is manageable. That is why I chose 3" when I purchased my Kimber K6S. I have owned a 3" Model 13, a 2.5" Model 19, and still own a 2.75" Ruger Speed-Six. All of these work well with full-house .357 loads.

CraigC said:

Are we intentionally cherry picking loads for a desired result? The .357 PDX load is only rated at 1325fps. I've clocked 125gr handloads at nearly 1500fps out of a friggin' 3" barrel model 60.

The .357 has double the working pressure, greater powder capacity and the ability to utilize slower powders. Of course it is going to outperform the .38Spl, regardless of barrel length. Whether or not it's pleasant to shoot is an entirely different subject.

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Not to disagree at all and I do agree that you will certainly get better performance from a .357 mainly in velocity. But does that give you better performance for self defense. I would have to say no because of 2 factors. First the ability to fire accurate and quick follow up shots. That's just common sense. The vast majority of shooters out there cannot handle a .357 especially in a snub nose whether a J or a K frame efficiently. Second, the higher velocity might not perform as well when it hits the target. Its possible to get too much penetration and not enough expansion. With the new bullets out today that are designed for short barrels and will perform better at a slower velocity than faster, then I see absolutely no point in using a .357 in a snub for defense. Looking at the Lucky Gunner results, even the 125gr Golden Saber performed better overall with a balance of penetration and expansion in a 2" barrel than did the same bullet in a 4" barrel. All of this can be debated to the end of time with no real concrete answers. Every SD situation is going to be different. There is no PERFECT GUN or PERFECT LOAD FOR every situation. Use what you shoot the most accurately and can control the best.

SteadyD said:

If I were inclined to shoot 357 in a snubbie, I wouldn’t go any lighter than the 23 oz Kimber K6s, and I would use the 125 grain Remington Golden Saber 357 Magnum. Of all the Magnums I’ve shot, it had the least recoil.

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I agree 100%. After reading the Lucky Gunner test, I bought 200 rounds of 125gr Golden Saber and also bought a couple hundred of the bullets to load myself. It does seem to recoil less or at least no more than any of the other Short Barrel Defense Loads out there. I use the bullets I bought to load for practice and the factory loads for carry, though I would be as comfortable carrying the bullets I load.

For me, I do not like shooting 38 Special +P in my Airweight J-frames. In my Model 60 J-frames, +P might be OK but I have not shot any.

I load a mid range 357 Magnum load (950 fps/158 grain SWC or so from a 4" revolver) for most of my 357 Magnum shooting these days and they are quite pleasant to shoot in my 3" S&W Model 60. I'd hate to shoot full, power 357 Magnum loads.

Like real estate, the three most important things are location, location and location. A hit with a 38 Special will trump a miss with a 357 Magnum (or 44 Magnum) any day.

But, more power to you if you can shoot a full power 357 Magnum J-frame well. I'd be impressed--seriously.

Sistema1927 said:

In a lightweight 2" revolver I find .357 magnum to be too much of a handful.

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So, shoot .38 Special ammunition in it. Again, no downside to a .357 Magnum revolver when compared to a similar (in terms of weight, size and general configurations) revolver chambered in .38 Special.

I've shot 357 out of my LCR (17 onces) on a few occasions over the years. It's starts to wear on my hand after a two or so cylinders worth... It's definitely not a range gun, but it's bearable for use in a self defense situation. I've actually be thinking about switching to 357 from +P for carry in my LCR...

I have 3 J-frames all S&W’s. A model 36-2, 442-1, and a 60 Pro. Only the 60 Pro is .357.
While I am equally accurate with various .38, .38 +P and .357 loads in my model 60 Pro practicing with .357 is quite a handful - pun intended.
The problem is regarding follow up shots, follow up shots that are accurate and follow up shots that are quick. That is where the .357 would not be a good round for me to carry in a 5 round capacity revolver.
In all my J-frames I prefer .38 Special (not +P) defense loads. I can hit accurately and quickly. BUT, I did vote for .38 +P.

marb4 said:

My question is this - With nearly identical expansion and penetration, why would I choose the harder recoiling larger blast 357 over the easier to control 38 for defensive carry?

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Good question. Actually you ask a technical question and your received some technical answers and a ton of other information. In all honesty I have no real technical answer but would tend to agree with those that marksmanship skills with a J-Frame means more than ammo selection. However I think it safe to say that .357 Magnum sounds a lot more Bad Ass than 38 Special or 38 Special +P+++, just as K6 sounds more impressive than Air Weight. So that's a factor to consider.

That is a VERY GOOD question and shows that you are THINKING for yourself. The marketing clowns despise you.

Spats McGee said:

I bought an LCR in .357 with the idea that I would practice with .38s and carry .357s. Yeah, . . . . . I shot a couple of cylinders of .357 through it and learned a couple of things: (1) My group was the size of a tire; and (2) I don't enjoy .357s in a little gun. I switched to .38s and: (a) my groups shrank a lot; and (b) I like shooting .38s a whole lot more in that gun. So, I now own a .357 that really never sees .357s.

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This story has repeated itself so many times on internet forums I would be a rich main if I got a nickle each time I have read similar. I always tell someone that is thinking about a 357 Magnum snub-nose (especially an aluminum framed one) that they should borrow or rent one before buying. Someone told be that years ago and I borrowed an 340PD and thus I own a 442 Moonclip. I knew after shooting the 340 PD that I would never carry 357 Magnum and bought the cheaper gun and invested the saving into other things.

One other aspect that gets overlooked in the 38 Special vs 357 Mag in a snubby is that 38 Special in a 38 Special chamber will get slightly better performance than that same round in a 357 Magnum chamber and identical barrel length. You often see a 25-50 fps boost in velocity and often a slight increase in accuracy. The accuracy issue is fairly meaningless as we are talking about a difficult to shoot, short range, snub-nose revolver. But with 38 Special being near the bottom of the barrel, of effective self defense rounds, any boost in velocity could be helpful. Not to mention the fact that for similar weight the 38 Special revolver is almost always significantly cheaper.

So go try both cartridges in potential revolvers you might like to buy. That is well worth the time and effort if you realize you will never use 357 Magnum. You can same some money and give a slight boost to your 38 Specials.

Eddietruett said:

Not to disagree at all and I do agree that you will certainly get better performance from a .357 mainly in velocity. But does that give you better performance for self defense. I would have to say no because of 2 factors. First the ability to fire accurate and quick follow up shots. That's just common sense. The vast majority of shooters out there cannot handle a .357 especially in a snub nose whether a J or a K frame efficiently. Second, the higher velocity might not perform as well when it hits the target. Its possible to get too much penetration and not enough expansion. With the new bullets out today that are designed for short barrels and will perform better at a slower velocity than faster, then I see absolutely no point in using a .357 in a snub for defense. Looking at the Lucky Gunner results, even the 125gr Golden Saber performed better overall with a balance of penetration and expansion in a 2" barrel than did the same bullet in a 4" barrel. All of this can be debated to the end of time with no real concrete answers. Every SD situation is going to be different. There is no PERFECT GUN or PERFECT LOAD FOR every situation. Use what you shoot the most accurately and can control the best.

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Agreed, all valid points. The first factor is why I have absolutely no desire to shoot the .357 out of a lightweight snub. My .500JRH is more pleasant to shoot. Although a bullet designed for the .357 'should' still perform well at the reduced velocity it gets out of a snubby, it's always a good idea to make sure it does expand at that speed.

I was speaking specifically to velocity and the myth that the .357 does not gain any performance over the .38Spl in short barrels.

CraigC said:

I was speaking specifically to velocity and the myth that the .357 does not gain any performance over the .38Spl in short barrels.

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You're right, whether you need the extra velocity or not and whether the extra recoil and muzzle blast is worth it or not, doesn't mean that the myth is true. It's not and never can be.

IMHO, the "crud ring" from shooting 38's out of a 357 revolver is seriously overblown. My FiL reloads ammo at cost for me whenever I feel like shooting with him. He reloads light 38 specials instead of 357's because "we are just poking holes in paper". I normally shoot 50 rounds through any specific handgun in one of our (normally 300-round) shooting sessions. It takes me five or ten minutes to clean a revolver afterwards, depending on how focused I am. Each cylinder gets a few plunges with a brass wire brush with solvent on it, and enough plunges with cleaning patches until they come out clean. Afterwards I have never seen any "crud ring" at all, ever.

For the same reason I shoot a lot of 44 special ammo out of my 44 magnum revolvers, and a lot of 32 S&W long out of my 327 revolver. The results are the same - basically nothing.

I shoot 357's out of my friend's LCR and they don't seem like a big deal to me. Maybe he loads them kind of light, though that isn't really his style.

I normally load 38 +P hollowpoints in my 357 SD revolvers just due to issues of muzzle blast and my increasing deafness.

Tallball said:

IMHO, the "crud ring" from shooting 38's out of a 357 revolver is seriously overblown. My FiL reloads ammo at cost for me whenever I feel like shooting with him. He reloads light 38 specials instead of 357's because "we are just poking holes in paper". I normally shoot 50 rounds through any specific handgun in one of our (normally 300-round) shooting sessions. It takes me five or ten minutes to clean a revolver afterwards, depending on how focused I am. Each cylinder gets a few plunges with a brass wire brush with solvent on it, and enough plunges with cleaning patches until they come out clean. Afterwards I have never seen any "crud ring" at all, ever..

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it is real simple as you said to keep the build up ring cleaned out. If you ever get lazy or have an extended range session and the build up does not come out as you normally clean, I have found 2 ways to clean the "ring" if it gets extra bad. The easiest way is to get a .40 or .44 brass/bronze brush and screw it on a shortened cleaning rod. Take a cordless drill and after saturating the cylinder hole run the brush in and out at low speed. It does the same thing, just saves time when it is extra bad. The other trick an old time competition shooter shared is to take Kroil and spray in the cylinder and let it sit a day or two. It will actually penetrate the carbon and you can just wipe it out with a cloth patch most of the time. The Kroil trick will do the same thing for barrel leading. It will penetrate under the lead and it will almost fall out. Kroil is one of the best products out there and the only problem I have is the smell is strong and my girlfriend hates it. My cleaning room is off the garage and it will make the garage smell so I can only use it when the big door is open and not in the cold winter. BTW, I like the way Kroil smells.

50 rounds are not really enough to form a crud ring in the chamber. But the crud ring thing is real and I have cleaned many revolvers (other people's) with a crud ring so thick you certainly couldn't chamber a .357 round. These owners probably were poor cleaners. The easy way to get the bulk of it out is to take and empty .357 case and flare it out and use it like a reamer. What is left will brush out. A good quality crud ring will not come out with a bore brush unless you spend a lot of time on it (or chuck it in a drill). For a .357 chamber a .40 cal. brush makes a good chamber brush (for a while anyway).

Spats McGee said:

. So, I now own a .357 that really never sees .357s.

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I suspect you have a lot of company.

Firearm selection plays a huge role in anyone caliber selection. Everything comes at a price and when you an extremely lite weight revolver the price is recoil. Never had a use for any snubnosed 38spl & never had 1 around to the misses wanted 1. Carried a 44spl/ca bulldog since the 80's. A snubnosed or 4" bbl'd 38spl isn't even in the same zip code as a snubnosed 44spl.

I've shot 357 model 60's in the past, terrible setups. You couldn't pay me to own 1. My brother on the other hand loves the model 60's/357 & sent his out and got it magna-ported. Huge difference, but it's just not for me. But I did learn a thing or 2 from shooting that model 60 & ended up buying a 3" bbl'd (the bbl is actually 2 1/2") 357, namely the l-comp 586 s&w puts out.


Beautiful revolver, the 3" bbl shroud allows the long ejector rod that fully ejects the long 357 cases. A 2 1/2" bbl ejector rod will not, it's too short. Just something to think about when buying these snubnosed revolvers. Holds 7 shots and with the built in comp it's nothing to go out and have 200 round/300round range sessions with full house 357 loads with it.

As it stands right now the misses ca undercover 38spl get the 158gr hp's/950fps load. And the l-comp gets the 170gr fn's/1200fps load.


IMHO:
I think the ruger lcr's are a fantastic snubnosed revolver & ruger really nailed it when they made them. I was going to pick 1 up and ran across that l-comp pictured above at a killer price. I'm still going to pick up a ruger lcr & it's going to be chambered in 357. I don't want to shoot 357's in that lcr. But it allow me to really study/test different 38spl bullets/loads/primer combo's with confidence that the results I'm seeing are accurate. And that can only come from a well made firearm.

Forrest -
That N frame is certainly a good platform for .357 , but I cannot imagine carrying IWB , as I do my 60. (No dash , btw , .38 sp. I got rid of my 60 dash whatever in .357.)

Spats McGee said:

So, I now own a .357 that really never sees .357s.

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I used to be in that camp. I have divested myself of any .357's to which I was feeding .38. I came to grips with (my) reality.

Waveski said:

Forrest -
That N frame is certainly a good platform for .357

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The 586 is an L-frame. https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/performance-center-586-l-comp

Walkalong said:

Yep, just like my 2 1/2" 686. I love L Frames. Awfully fond on N Frames too though. And K Frames.......

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What? No J-Frame love?