I've had many nightstand pistols over the years and changed some of them through wisdom acquired accidentally. My first purchase was a 686 no dash with a six inch barrel. That was what slept right next to me for years until one day I went to an indoor firing range and realized that the deafening sound could literally injure my ears as well. So I switched to a 1911. Now for the last several years next to me is a 870 20ga shotgun with #4 shot and an FNH tactical .45 with 16 rounds ready to go.
Nightstand Pistol
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Old Dog
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Lack of understanding in its use? Uh, no, don't think so.. Been there, done that. Many sub-guns, especially in the 9mm variety, in order to cycle well, have to be run with hot ammo (we ran +P+ in our MP5s), which is some of the most over-penetrative rounds ever produced. If you've ever shot one, you know there's a learning curve and it's not like what you see in the movies. Not what you want to use in one's house, which is what this thread is about. I prefer accurate, aimed fire, but that's just me.
AK103K
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Look, before this gets completely off track with comments that dont seem to understand things here, 1.5 - 3 seconds is if you grab the trigger and let the gun run until its empty. Thats not how you shoot it. At least, thats not how someone who knows how to shoot it shoots it.
Its no different than someone with a handgun just uncontrollably dumping the mag.
"Spray and Pray" is, and always has been, a function of the shooter, and not the gun. If you cant control yourself, and the gun, thats not any fault of the gun.
Its no different than someone with a handgun just uncontrollably dumping the mag.
"Spray and Pray" is, and always has been, a function of the shooter, and not the gun. If you cant control yourself, and the gun, thats not any fault of the gun.
My bedbug is my 'halfbreed'. She started out as a LEO refurb .357 Sig, 16 years ago, transitioned to .40 S&W maybe 12 years ago and about a year ago got a p229 Legion RX slide in 9mm. This and her sister are my best shooting pistols with absolutely great triggers. They were my EDC's for about 15 years but have been replaced with p365s. My main home defense firearms are not in my nightstand.
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Oldschool shooter
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Not trying to sound like a smart ass, but if the point is to put several projectiles into an intruder, seems a shotgun with buckshot can do the same as a machine pistol, and do it with 1 round.
Oldschool shooter
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If you shoot once, recoil is a moot point, and with adrenaline flowing, you probably won't even remember how loud it was. Cumbersome, maybe. But I dare say, most people, unless trained well and with alot of practice, will spray and pray in a high pressure situation. Rather have 1 or 2 well placed shots on target.
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I can't imagine the noise factor, but what I consider to be the biggest issue is every shot which would miss the BG would be turning my home in to a Gazebo...
AK103K
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Im willing to bet, I can teach pretty much anyone to make good, "well placed" hits with the SMG quicker and easier than I could with a shotgun. Especially in practice getting them up to speed.
You can shoot a SMG all day long, and learning is more fun as you go. How many people do you know who would like to spend the day shooting 12 ga buck loads in practice?
The difference in size and weight of the guns is also usually pretty dramatic when it comes to handling and moving around if need be.
And as I said before, spray and pray is a function of the shooter, and the gun really has nothing to do with it.
Offhand McFlan
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In most full auto pistols you wont squeeze more than about 3 good bursts. Then you have to reload AND mind your next target or simply retreat. After emptying a magazine from a full auto pistol it's going to take you a few seconds to get your bearings both visually and sonically. In that time one shot could take you out. i think unless you are being overwhelmed by greater numbers and firepower you are better off being in full control of EVERY SHOT.Look, before this gets completely off track with comments that dont seem to understand things here, 1.5 - 3 seconds is if you grab the trigger and let the gun run until its empty. Thats not how you shoot it. At least, thats not how someone who knows how to shoot it shoots it.
Its no different than someone with a handgun just uncontrollably dumping the mag.
"Spray and Pray" is, and always has been, a function of the shooter, and not the gun. If you cant control yourself, and the gun, thats not any fault of the gun.
I wouldnt have a full auto pistol as my night stand gun. I wouldnt mind having one as my trump card when things are worse than they seem. Some things are very bipolar in their usefulness. I believe full auto pistols fit that category and in most home invasion cases will be more trouble than theyre worth.
AK103K
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The difference is the stock, and Im referring to a gun with a stock.
I agree, something like and Glock 18 wouldnt make much sense, unless it was in a Romi or something similar.
Even with something like the MAC's, which normally have a pretty quick cyclic rate (1200rpm +/-), you will likely get around 5 bursts out of a mag. Slower guns, as many as 10, assuming you have some trigger control.
The biggest problem in discussions like these is, most have little to no experience, they are already "bad" guns in many peoples eyes, including supposed "gun" people (Ive had to deal with that for decades too), and then theres the "equity" issue, making them more of an investment than a tool anymore. With that in mind, yea, they are probably a poor choice for most.
But, it was a question asked, and Im just pointing some things out.
GBExpat
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No, I absolutely would not.
DaStray
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Semi auto for me or a shotgun but I would positively drool over a MP 40!
Wouldn`t sneer over a MP5,S&W Model 76, UZI, Scorpion...etc
Wouldn`t sneer over a MP5,S&W Model 76, UZI, Scorpion...etc
Alex Clayton
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I think youll have that issue with a lot of things people have cobbled together of late.
Once youre shown the proper technique, its actually very simple to shoot most shoulder fired pistol and intermediate rifle rounds, and actually do complete mag dumps and keep all the rounds on target at realisitic distances (10-25 yards) The technique is also very simple to learn and master, and enough so, Ive taught kids and non shooters to do it and usually in just a couple of mags.
Part of this too, and contrary to what you so often hear, is understanding that you arent going to be using FA much past buckshot range, if youre serious about using it for any kind decent precision.
Guns without a stock or some kind of brace, like a fitted sling, are a bit of a different critter, and especially things like the MAC's, UZI's, etc, that have their pistol grip amidships on the gun. They can be flat out dangerous if you dont know what youre doing. Those guns want to rock up and back at the grip, due to the bolt going back past it as it cycles.
Extend the stocks, and they too are fairly easily controled.
I shot this at 10 yards with my SWD M11/9mm. Thats two 25 round mags, one pull of the trigger each (full mag dumps), and total time was right around 3 seconds.
View attachment 927614
This is the gun (bottom), and how it was shot.....
View attachment 927615
Now, just to be clear, this was shot to simply show that you can control the gun and dump the whole mag, and on target, and in no way is how the gun would normally be shot. That gun has a fast cyclic rate, about 1200rpm, and the shortest burst you usually get, is around 5 rounds.Still, thats how it would normally be shot. Point it at the target, and give it a quick burst.
The MP5 (and a lot of the older open bolt guns) on the other hand, will easily let you squeeze off one round "bursts" if you desire, and 2-3 rounds is usually the norm. I used to shoot my MP40 at 100 yards, squeezing off one round at a time (the MP40 is an open bolt, FA only gun), with no trouble at all, and consistently make good hits with it.
If good old Ronnie Ray Guns hadn't screwed us back in '86, a lot more people might have had a chance to get to experience these type guns. Then again, even back when they were cheap and plentiful, most still hade very little exposure to and/or experience with them, and the misinformation about them was just as rampant.
Too bad. They are a lot of fun, and in the right hands, can be a very effective weapon.
I too was VERY disappointed with the crap in 86 that ruined it. Last NFA I had was a M10. Buddy had a couple other items and when we would go out together it was a ton of damn fun. It was even more fun when someone who had never shot would get to try. The smiles on their face as they got to try these was amazing.
Sadly now that so few get to ever shoot these the "idea's" of how they work are super distorted as you see here sadly. People "think" you can't safely hit what you shoot at, or "think" you would be in trouble with the law which is a shame. If you end up shooting someone and are in trouble with the law after the shoot most likely it will have zero to do with what you shot with. Almost every time someone shoots in defense and gets into a "situation" with the law it's their mouth that does it. It is amazing how people just can not keep their yap shut after a shoot. If you have to shoot, no matter what you shoot with, When Police arrive you say "lawyer", and stop. If you end up in front of a jury it will be because you talked yourself there. Again this sadly happens too often.
Alex Clayton
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The SG is devastating to the dobad with the right ammo alright. The only thing I warn those who recommend SG is so many never learn to use them. Way too many buy one, shoot it a few times if at all. After being told for years "you can't miss", "just point and fire" stuff like that. At most house distance its super easy to just completely miss. Then if they panic, especially if the dobad is not standing there not moving like a paper target, or worse is shooting back, they can easily turn the pump SG into a club when they jam it. So for anyone who wants to keep a SG for protection really needs to learn to be proficient with it and practice now and then. A lot of people are like my other half. They will not shoot one at all or if they try it one time no longer want to shoot again. This lack of training, then add stress, a target that does not hold still like paper, or shoots back? Suddenly the SG may be of no use.
Alex Clayton
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The difference is the stock, and Im referring to a gun with a stock.
I agree, something like and Glock 18 wouldnt make much sense, unless it was in a Romi or something similar.
Even with something like the MAC's, which normally have a pretty quick cyclic rate (1200rpm +/-), you will likely get around 5 bursts out of a mag. Slower guns, as many as 10, assuming you have some trigger control.
The biggest problem in discussions like these is, most have little to no experience, they are already "bad" guns in many peoples eyes, including supposed "gun" people (Ive had to deal with that for decades too), and then theres the "equity" issue, making them more of an investment than a tool anymore. With that in mind, yea, they are probably a poor choice for most.
But, it was a question asked, and Im just pointing some things out.
When I lived in the SW several of us had some NFA stuff. Often would shoot at an old quarry that was public. Lost track of the times another shooter would run over to tell us what we had was illegal.There was a large shop in the city that all knew of. When I would ask them they of course knew the place. I would say they are a ClassIII dealer. If you ask they will show you some things and explain how to buy. Some would call me a liar. At that point I would tell them go away, we are done. Couple times one ran to their car to run to a pay phone to call Police. One time the LEO's did show up. Talked to us and left. That time the guy who had called was sitting off with his mouth hanging open in shock. Some times another shooter would ask to try, shocked they could own these. The couple shops there at that time that were Class III for some reason never used to make it known. I never could understand for sure why they did not. Have to guess they figured it was not worth all the hassle of shoppers starting in on the help too? Sadly a LOT of gun owners even before 86 had no clue how the NFA law worked
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el Godfather
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Convincing jury of what? I am a lawyer and I would be interested in the difference in the defense scenario where one has shot the intruder with a 9mm pistol vs taking his head clean off with a shotgun slug.
Its not an issue.
Alex Clayton
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Sadly this stuff too is the result of a LOT of "well my buddy told me...." kind of stuff. Some authors did not help. Mass A wrote something in one of his books along this line back before Algore invented the net. Saying something like using reloads "could" result in problems. That morphed over the years of re telling to using them would be a problem. Some even started in with if you pick the wrong ammo you would be in trouble and such. The urban myths take on a life of their own and die hard.
That corny movie about the chainsaw murders in TX is a great example. I have run into a lot of people who swear they remember it being in the papers when it happened. Problem was it was all the result of a fertile imagination of a guy standing in line at a Sears store. People then for decades hear the retelling and convince themselves they really do "remember it"
Alex Clayton
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That part I can say I experienced. Use a SG indoors one time. I did not feel the recoil and did not hear the blast. At least I did not notice it. It was not till long after I realized I had that ring in the ears from it. Have talked to many who had the same thing happen to them. They did not notice recoil or blast at the time. The lack of training though is where any gun can be a problem. With a pump SG if the shooter misses, then panics, they may never be able to get off another shot as they turned the gun into a club. If a SG's recoil and blast keeps a shooter from learning them they can be ill served if they need to use it one day. If they are not willing to learn to use the SG for whatever reason they would be far better off with some other gun they will practice with and get good and comfortable with.
George Dickel
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If I lived in Mogadishu I would definitely need and want one.
P5 Guy
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A S&W model 76 with a silencer would be nice.
Old Dog
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I'm not disagreeing with anything you say here. For a moment though, let's separate concept from reality and the square range from downrange. Shooting an SMG can be terrific fun. Obviously, carrying an SMG around all day is way easier than toting an 18 or 20 inch twelve-gauge pump or semi-auto shotgun around. Not too mention, if you've got an MP5K or MP7, there's serious CDI points there. In experienced hands, they are great entry weapons. But as shoulder-fired weapons. The OP was about "nightstand pistols."
Teaching someone to get "well-placed hits" with a sub-gun on the square range is one thing. But, in over 20 years on active duty and another 16 in LE, I've seen what happens with full-auto guns as the pucker factor increases. And I think we may have a fundamental disagreement regarding the actual purpose of full-auto fire. I know, you keep bring up "bursts."
Also, you note the radical difference between what's considered a machine-pistol and something with a solid shoulder stock (and no, a cheesy "arm-brace" ain't gonna do it for me). I've met a handful of guys in my life (maybe three or four) I'd say would be well-served using a terrifically-expensive sub-machine gun as a "night-stand pistol." Being as I subscribe to the notion of "A good man's gotta know his limitations," I know I ain't one of those guys. I'll keep my 590A1, my M-4 and a high-cap .45 w/WML as my nightstand armament.
If you have called 911, and you should have, you have already "talk[ed] to the cops".
Also, until you have affirmatively invoked your right to silence, your failure to say anything can be used against you.
And your advice is bad for other reasons, if you intend to mount a defense of justification.
Charlie Martinez
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My night stand pistol is a 357 snub nose revolver loaded with 124 grain semi jacketed hollow points. I also have a shotgun handy but it's obviously not resting on my night stand.
I feel fine with my choice because I'm a better than average shooter with it & it's DA action is smooth but not as easy to discharge as my SA pistol (a 1911).
However the answer to this question depends on where you live & what kind of intruder you expect.
I live in the suburbs & I have a lot of neighbors nearby. My most likely intruder while I was home sleeping would be a burglar crazy enough to break into our house while listening to our dogs barking just on the other side of the wall. I'm not saying that more firepower would not be great but I think my revolver is going to be enough & I will probably have plenty of time to grab my shotgun from the rack.
However if I lived in an isolated area where there are no neighbors to light up the neighborhood if they hear a lot of noise & commotion I would definitely feel a lot safer with a gun that had a lot more firepower. Unfortunately I do not have a full auto license but if I did I would not object at all to having a full auto pistol chambered for a pistol caliber like 9mm or 45 ACP on my nightstand.
Pistols chambered in rifle calibers like .223 are in my opinion not needed for close quarter work. Also the noise issue has been already discussed here but my personal experience with pistols chambered in .223 is limited to being nearby when other folks fire them at the range. All I can say is that the muzzle blast is enormous. I don't look forward to firing my 357 Mag revolver inside the house but I would be doubly concerned about doing the same with a full auto pistol chambered in a rifle caliber.
I feel fine with my choice because I'm a better than average shooter with it & it's DA action is smooth but not as easy to discharge as my SA pistol (a 1911).
However the answer to this question depends on where you live & what kind of intruder you expect.
I live in the suburbs & I have a lot of neighbors nearby. My most likely intruder while I was home sleeping would be a burglar crazy enough to break into our house while listening to our dogs barking just on the other side of the wall. I'm not saying that more firepower would not be great but I think my revolver is going to be enough & I will probably have plenty of time to grab my shotgun from the rack.
However if I lived in an isolated area where there are no neighbors to light up the neighborhood if they hear a lot of noise & commotion I would definitely feel a lot safer with a gun that had a lot more firepower. Unfortunately I do not have a full auto license but if I did I would not object at all to having a full auto pistol chambered for a pistol caliber like 9mm or 45 ACP on my nightstand.
Pistols chambered in rifle calibers like .223 are in my opinion not needed for close quarter work. Also the noise issue has been already discussed here but my personal experience with pistols chambered in .223 is limited to being nearby when other folks fire them at the range. All I can say is that the muzzle blast is enormous. I don't look forward to firing my 357 Mag revolver inside the house but I would be doubly concerned about doing the same with a full auto pistol chambered in a rifle caliber.
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