Too good to be true?

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almost every benchmade, microtech, ZT, and syyderco has a fake. They are all over wish, aliexpress, and dhgate. The bugout clones run about $20, and are by all accounts, pretty good if you are ok with a mystery steel that is likely 8cr13mov. I have tried a few fakes over they years, and they are typically pretty nice. Expect a knife that kershaw/gerber/crkt would sell for $50. Now, the ganzo/ch/civivi knives are all better than the clones. You get real D2 for 20-30 bucks. Luvthemknives has been testing them.

I have a carbon fiber 943 with a d2 blade that I paid like $65 for. The action isn't as good as my real 942, but it ain't bad. probably 90% as good. The grinds on the blade are nice, it acts like d2 in terms of sharpening and wanting to rust, and the carbon fiber is much nicer than the CF on my zt.

Now, benchmade has it's own legit problems: their QC sucked for a while a few years back, whoever is doing the color combo selection for the bugouts is an idiot, and they're massively over priced. But spyderco and leupold are overpriced too.
 
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Uh, not for that price. 440A maybe. How can you tell steel type by sharpening it anyway?
There are quite a few Chinese makers selling folders with legit D2 blades for $30, sometimes a bit less. And that's brands like Ganzo that are being sold from US dealers at that price. So, $20 plus shipping direct from China seems reasonable vs. $30 for product that has shipping to the US and a dealer markup included seems within the realm of possibility. Also remember that D2 is an AISI standard spec. Anyone, anywhere in the world with the capability can make D2 if their alloy meets the spec range. Of course, some foundries make a cleaner, more uniform, and more consistent alloy.
 
How can you tell steel type by sharpening it anyway?
I profile the edge with a jig to define the edge angle, from there I freehand on stones. A type of steel alloy with a similar hardness and heat treat feels a certain way on a stone, a different alloy feels different on the stone. It's hard to explain, but like I said my best guess is it is D2 based on sharpening blades made of D2.
After I use the this counterfeit 535 for a while I may have a better guess?
 
I profile the edge with a jig to define the edge angle, from there I freehand on stones. A type of steel alloy with a similar hardness and heat treat feels a certain way on a stone, a different alloy feels different on the stone. It's hard to explain, but like I said my best guess is it is D2 based on sharpening blades made of D2.
After I use the this counterfeit 535 for a while I may have a better guess?
I will add this, I have a Rat 1 and 2 in D2 I find it takes patients to shape the carbides in this steel to a apex but once I get it, the edge will last and it is durable.
I find the the carbides in CPM steels to be finer and consistently distributed, these steels are not easier to sharpen, just different.
I have had many 400 series knives and a few in 8cr13mov, I'm just sayin this fake 535 reminds me most of D2.
I do think a budget steel with a good heat treat will perform better than a high end steel with a poor heat treat for it's intended purpose so I will use the fake 535 and see how it does.
 
Not always.

There are some high-priced Rolex clones that are literally the same (or better) than the real thing. The actions themselves are different, but they would require a bonafide expert to tell, and they are of at least the quality of the Rolex. Bracelets, watch bodies, crystals etc. ARE the same.

The value of the ROLEX name, and the $$$ Rolex SA pumps into advertising are both huge. Cheaters stealing a free ride on their coattails have a HUGE cost, and thus price advantage, while maintaining margins.

There are even more mundane examples of not getting what one paid for. I recently bought a CS Magnum Tanto XII VG-10 San Mai for $186.46 from CS through Amazon. They're still available for that price through Amazon as far as I know. Yet CS now has the same knife advertised on its website for $379.99. (BladeHQ is "only" $279.99 right now.)

Those paying nearly 51% more aren't "getting what they paid for." They're not getting a better knife. They're getting stroked, given the current alternatives.
Amazon is full of counterfeit goods these days. So much so that I’ve stopped buying anything but books there. I got burned on a pair of Sunglasses.
I ordered a pair of American Optical aviators for a good but not great price. It was below retail, but above what my buddy could get them for at the BX. What I received was cheap Chinese garbage. Like discount rack at a gas station garbage.
One really must be careful when dealing with Amazon these days, especially the resellers.
 
No way. While my example was removed for some reason, people buy goods and services at legitimately deep discounts every day, while others pay MSRP for the exact same goods and services.

You're misstating what that phase means. No one is saying that you must pay full asking price on a like for like item. Short of MAP pricing (and even then that is in reference to the advertised price), people are absolutely free to charge and pay whatever they want for a good or service. While I agree, paying full MSRP from a manufacturer is silly, they market their wares as such to both generate revenue from someone who, for whatever reason, wants to purchase directly from the horse's mouth (maybe because warranty service is more likely to be ironclad compared to going through a third party), and it also makes the product more attractive when the consumer shops a dealer who purchases said product wholesale which will in turn generate more revenue than selling the product outright. If a Cold Steel Tai Pan costs (hypothetically) $100 to make and Cold Steel can sell it for say $300 MSRP, but the market only supports them selling 5 a month to people who want the hot-off-the-presses Cold Steel Goodness, then they make $1000, right? Awesome. However, if they sell 100 pieces to Amazon for $150 in a month, they are already $5000 ahead. Compound that Amazon sells the Tai Pan for say $200. People shopping for a Tai Pan look at what the manufacturer feels the knife is worth ($300), so saving $100 bucks seems like a good deal. Amazon sells all they have, buys more, Cold Steel keeps supplying them as well as offering their products directly because why not? Plus, they can do a super slash parking lot sale with products 1/2 off and still come out making a good chunk of change. I know you know all of this. I don't mean to come across as condescending. I just deal with this in my line of work too (not knives), and some might not know what kind of tool MSRP is.

The phase "you get what you pay for" has to do with attempting to purchase a seemingly similar item at a cheaper price. A $20 clone Benchmade may be the same color, same weight, and will generally cut stuff like a $200 real-deal. However, you are getting inferior materials, no warranty, and no pride of ownership, along with turning a blind eye to IP theft no matter how closely it mimics the original. All of that may not be worth $180 premium to some. That's cool, I guess. I think that's a pretty crappy way to handle things as I think we all could be unfairly outcompeted in our profession where someone would do a crappier but cheaper job than we offer. No one would find it fair that someone offers to do the exact same thing, the exact same way at 1/2 what you ask for the same work...especially when that person promising to do it just as well isn't even doing the job they claimed they can do.
 
There are two challenges with buying counterfeit knives (and perhaps anything).

If the knockoff is being sold as the original manufactured knife you shouldn't expect to get the same quality or materials as the original and there's no assurance of it. Knockoffs come in all sorts of levels of quality these days. Since marketing can claim anything, you have to expend effort to try to find the knockoffs that are of better quality. Can you even trust the results after extensive review? Hard to tell since knockoff manufacturers knock off each other and rip off the same marketing. That means that price point above "so cheap it is obvious" it has to be a fake (like our $22 Benchmade that started the thread) may be better or just more of a ripoff. With knives you can at least check a couple of reviewers who specialize in Chinese made knives, both knockoffs and "nearly likes" that have inside information and extensive experience. That can give you some guidance on value. But, you face the problem that knockoff manufacturers are knocked off so the good review on the Sanremo knockoff (for those that don't know Sanremo was and perhaps still is a notorious copier of Sebenza's style) may not apply to the Ti or steel frame and certainly won't to the copy of the Sanremo being knocked off by a lower tier fake maker. It is a constantly shifting area of interest. What's the consequence of buying fake you didn't know was a fake? Performance probably won't be as good or may be horrible. Your "too good to be true" priced knife may come with a properly heat treaded D2 blade that cuts pretty well or you may get one that they skipped the heat treat to save some money or they may just put a 420J steel in place to keep it from rusting and some sort of edge on it assuming you won't fuss if the price is low. You can't tell because they are interested making you think you got the real deal at an unbelievable price and nothing more. So, is it a properly heat treated D2 blade or some mystery metal? Dunno. Mechanisms are certainly another place you can be cheated on. Is it a bearing system as advertised or a nylon washer? Will you know and will you go to the trouble to demand your money back if you can tell? You were sold a Benchmade/Spyderco/Sebenza and your expectation is that you can trust the quality in materials and construction so the knockoff companies gamble they won't have to pay anything back because people want to believe they have the authentic and those that find out they were cheated won't put any effort into trying to get their money back if they're not out too much. Manufacturers care because of the damage to their reputation and just about every manufacturer has information on counterfeits because it hurts their reputation and business. I have handled Cold Steel san mai knives that had to be coming off the loading dock from the same factory as those going to CS for sale. The quality was indistinguishable, but the price was half of the CS discount prices. The boxes were cleverly done as old style boxes so the knives could be sold as New Old Stock. I have also handled many more that were obvious fakes that ranged from those that would pass a cursory examination to those that you could spot as fakes from feet away. I've done this with Microtechs and Hinderers and other high end production knives. (A dealer friend handed an MT OTF to me and without even looking I handed it back telling him is was a knockoff just because of the feel). The higher the price of a production knife (Sebenza, Microtech, etc) the greater the likelihood knockoffs can be of surprising superficial quality. It can be tough to know depending on your experience. I've done the research and and still am constantly behind the counterfeiters.

There are knockoffs or "nearly likes" being sold openly as a knockoff and their marketing is up front about it. You see this on Dhgate and other Chinese marketplaces and sometimes even on ebay. You may have to learn to decipher the phrasing or they may be very clear about it. That makes life a little easier because your fake MT is marketed as a knockoff. They will tell you that the blades are D2 or VG10 or ATS34 and they won't claim the more exotic steels used by the authentic manufacturers. Is that better for the buyer? Yes, but... But there's a wide quality range in these knives and you have to know the reviewers to trust or you have to research the manufacturers to know the quality range. They're still stealing the intellectual property of American and European and Russian companies, but they're "honest" about it. You won't expect it to look or perform exactly like the authentic knife. You won't try to send it to MT/BM/etc for service knowing it is a fake. So your expectations are lower and the price you pay will be closer with those expectations. Still not good, but not like being lied to.

What stops resellers from buying fakes and selling them as authentic? Nothing. Some resellers started out selling fakes as authentic and without any concern for the quality. Some progressed from there to being interested in quality fakes (real D2 with real heat treat) as the authentic. Some of those I know progressed from selling enough of those to get deals from the Chinese to make something that they sell as their own brand (lots of Microtech knockoff designs out there). They have them coated and branded not as MTs, but at "Bear Cat" or "Lightning" or something else. The blades are good D2 with heat treat and they put American springs in them and have their own packaging and they assemble them themselves from parts shipped from China. They don't look exactly like MTs, they're not marked like MTs, they're not packaged as MTs, they're not marketed as MTs, but they're riding the coattails of MT. Is that far enough away from counterfeiting? For just about most consumers it is.

The examples of Rolex watches and sunglasses was brought up. I'm not a watch collector, but I like watches and I have a couple of expensive watches in the Rolex range. I grew interested in the range of watches being sold and that included the counterfeits since I always wanted an Omega "Moon Watch" being a space geek. That interest led me to forums and websites just for "clones". These folks review the various counterfeit Omega and Rolex and ... (and even Seikos) watches. The sites are easy to find just with a search. They discuss and debate the quality of the counterfeits and how close they are to the authentic watches and it is fascinating to read and watch their assessments. They even discuss the counterfeits where crooks take non operating Rolexes and Omegas, drop modern automatic or even quartz movements in them, and then try to cheat people into paying the authentic price (you can tell the electric from the automatic movements once you learn how the second hands move in each). So as we know the range of "clone" to "counterfeit" is seen in expensive watch copies and the folks interested discuss them and rate them and even buy them (like the Chinese knife reviewers), but they don't pretend they're the same and they know the embarrassment for being found out if they pose as wearing one claiming it as authentic and they don't advocate trying to get them serviced as authentic since they'll be outed as fake. They also discuss the watches that are "honoring" the past iconic watches by reflecting the look without branding. The most common being "pepsi" automatic dive watches or early iconic watches like Hamilton's own Ventura they updated themselves and reissued. At a glance a Victorinox stainless dive watch might be mistaken for a Rolex dive watch by someone that doesn't know either, but not by a Rolex enthusiast. No shame in it since Victorinox doesn't hide who they are.

We all know there are fakes sold as authentic, whether watch, sunglasses, knives, or anything else of value. If they manufacturer and seller is open about the fact they are "inspired by, but are clearly branded as something else that's fine for most folks. If they're open about having copied and marked as authentic, but not marketed as such...that's another. They're faking for the buyer and the buyer knows. BUT when the manufacturer and/or the seller conceals the fact that the expensive product is counterfeit they're duping the buyer and the public regardless of what they're charging and I can't understand anyone making excuses for that sort of theft.
 
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Counterfeit goods are unethical all the way around: the producer, who benefits from the good will of another company; any facilitator such as AMZ, ebay, wish, etc; and the consumer who thinks she is buying something of greater value at ridiculous price. Shame and guilt seem to be obsolete concepts, however, so we can only hope that karma still operates efficiently.

Temporary price reductions are often triggers for me, but only from reputable blade merchants on products after due diligence.
 
It’s worth remembering, too, that by the nature of the fake, they’re using someone else’s name. So even if you buy a knife/watch/sunglasses/whatever from such-and-such site, and find it to be excellent quality/value, there is no guarantee that if you buy the same product in a week or a month it will be in any way close.... because they have no good name to uphold; they’ve been borrowing someone else’s. They can switch suppliers or cut corners with absolutely no harm to their reputation, because they’re using someone else’s.

From the watch side of things it is painful when someone spends good money $300-1000 on a “great fake.” Sure it’s good looking and way cheaper than the $5000-15000 original...... but it’s a lot of money nonetheless, for a watch with zero warranty or support, craftsmanship far inferior, and (perhaps most important) zero parts availability when something breaks.

When any brand gets the notoriety to ask significantly over the apparent cost of production, they leave themselves open to knockoffs. It’s inevitable. But that doesn’t mean the knockoff is always assuredly a good deal.
 
Well I was given a bad clone for Christmas by my BIL. He means well, and I am not going try and educate him on things as he won't listen and may get irritated with me, but its a very crude Benchmade Infidel knockoff. Super duper slop, mystery steel blade, and a shoddy butterfly logo.

It works ok. I thanked him for it and made a bit more of a production was it warranted, but I am glad I opted to bring my CRK Inkosi for my holiday carry knife to my in laws. The glaring difference between the Benchmade Clone and my EDC Combat Troodon is beyond night and day.
 
I can't see the reason they would use good steel on a knockoff. I love D2 and used a lot of it, regular and CPM.
Could be D2 with a poor heat treat? For $22 it's anyone's guess. I did make the edge angle more obtuse which improved the edge retention .It does seem better than 8cr13mov or Gerber's budget steel. This knife will likely find a home in my lunch bucket, but it will have a hard time overcoming the my favor for the Opinel #10 in Inox.
 
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Without doing some real analysis on the blade, or maybe destructive testing, it's hard to know much about the steel composition. It could be poor quality steel that's heat treated to a high hardness--it will have really good edge retention in testing that isn't rigorous enough to cause breakage/chipping, but will be brittle and prone to break. Or it could be retaining its edge well because it's a good steel with a proper heat treat.

Premium knife steels tend to carry a premium, not just in price, but also in manufacturing costs/machining. If you're trying to make something that looks right for a really low cost, there's no reason to spend the money and time putting a blade made of a good steel into the product.

Said another way, if the goal is to cheat the customer (by selling them a counterfeit product), why spend any money you don't have to on raw materials and manufacturing.
 
who have storefronts here in the state

That doesn't mean what we wish it did. There are tons of foreign resellers here with US addresses just as there are nearly everywhere. They are partnered with family or friends back in China. I correspond with some of them just to check on where they're getting their product. The Pakistanis are proud of their knives and relationships and are very forthcoming if approached with respect. The Chinese know they're stealing and are much harder to out.

Rule of thumb, trust NOTHING on Wish.
 
I've seen some knife reviews that were very puzzling. I remember one, in particular, that was of a knife put out by a maker who is usually known for good quality. The review was posted on one of the larger very reputable knife stores. I was pretty shocked at the content of the very negative review until I got to the part at the end where the reviewer stated that the knife had been bought from another source at a lower price. Then it all started to make sense--the odds are really good that the reviewer was actually dealing with a clone without knowing.

Which means:
The reviewer, thinking they were getting a good deal, instead got cheated.
The people reading the review were getting bad information.
The knife store received a negative review on their website for a knife that they didn't sell.
The manufacturer was being impugned for a knife that they didn't make.
 
I received the 940 counterfeit the other day, it took about a month. The scales are carbon fiber and the blade steel is impressive.
For $32 it would be hard to find a better value.
What bugs me is why make a counterfeit? why not make a copy and put your own name on it?
Stinking China.
The give away on this counterfeit is the placement of the Benchmade logo on the port side of the blade.
 
I have a Spyderco Native 5 with CPM s35vn blade steel and Cold Steel master hunter with cpm 3v. The counterfeit 940 came with edge grind close to 20 degrees so I thought I would steepen it to 17 degrees. What impressed me was how difficult this steel was to sharpen. My natural and man made stones couldn't grind it, only diamond and ceramic could cut it.
I haven't had much time time to cut stuff but so far it is holding the edge very well.
 
I have a Spyderco Native 5 with CPM s35vn blade steel and Cold Steel master hunter with cpm 3v. The counterfeit 940 came with edge grind close to 20 degrees so I thought I would steepen it to 17 degrees. What impressed me was how difficult this steel was to sharpen. My natural and man made stones couldn't grind it, only diamond and ceramic could cut it.
I haven't had much time time to cut stuff but so far it is holding the edge very well.

They could just use crappy steel and over harden it.
 
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