.25-06 v 6.5 Swede

A family heirloom Ruger 77 25-06 and you live in California?? Are you likely to run into anything ever that a 25-06 won't handle at any practical range? Keep in mind that the 25-06 is a better varmint cartridge AND shoots a 120 grain big game bullet that has a better BC/SD than a 120 grain 6.5mm bullet built for the same purpose. Actually, the 25-06 will kill everything in my state just fine too.

No brainer for me. I keep the Ruger.

HowieG said:

Actually, the 25-06 will kill everything in my state just fine too.

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Really, a .25-'06 will kill an Oryx or bull elk here in NM? I'd be surprised if a guide let you try.

Paul7 said:

Really, a .25-'06 will kill an Oryx or bull elk here in NM? I'd be surprised if a guide let you try.

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You don't think a 120 grain 25 caliber partition bullet at 3100 fps is capable of killing elk or oryx?? Stuff must be tough where you are. Disregard. You are from here. I remember you from the oryx thread. Anyway, I personally know people who have used a 243 to take elk. We certainly aren't required to use guides in most cases. The excerpt below is from the 2020-2021 Hunting Rules for the state of New Mexico.

2020–2021 Big Game & Turkey Rules Legal sporting arms for deer, elk, pronghorn, bighorn sheep, ibex, oryx, Barbary sheep and bear (big-game sporting arms): Any centerfire firearm at least .22 caliber or larger, any muzzle-loading firearm at least .45 caliber or larger, any shotgun .410 caliber or larger firing a single slug (including muzzle-loading shotguns), any bow or any crossbow. All firearms, except handguns, must be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Hunters must use only bullets designed to expand or fragment upon impact. Full metal jacket (FMJ) and tracer bullets are illegal. No fully automatic firearms may be used. Arrows and bolts must have broadheads (fixed or mechanical) with cutting edges. Sights on bows and crossbows may not project light (lighted pins are acceptable). No drugs may be used on arrows or bolts, and they cannot be driven by explosives, gunpowder or compressed air.

Paul7 said:

Really, a .25-'06 will kill an Oryx or bull elk here in NM? I'd be surprised if a guide let you try.

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As for the full capabilities of the 25-06, this sums it up nicely, .25-06 Remington (chuckhawks.com) .

HowieG said:

You don't think a 120 grain 25 caliber partition bullet at 3100 fps is capable of killing elk or oryx?? Stuff must be tough where you are. Disregard. You are from here. I remember you from the oryx thread. Anyway, I personally know people who have used a 243 to take elk. We certainly aren't required to use guides in most cases.

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I can see the .25-'06 for cow elk as I've taken several with a 6.5x55, I'd rather have a bit more for a bull. Never said a guide is required, I bring them up as they are pretty smart about these things and have seen it all, far more than we who don't hunt for a living. I know of several guide services here in NM who don't allow any caliber less than .30 on oryx, 7mm mag. being an exception. This is an animal that has killed African lions. Just because something is capable of killing an animal doesn't mean it's a good idea. Elk, moose, brown bears and elephants have all been killed with a .22 lr. A .25-'06 for deer-sized game, yes all day long. And no, I don't have magnumitis, IMHO a .30-'06 will handle anything in North America, no belted magnums required.

Paul7 said:

I can see the .25-'06 for cow elk as I've taken several with a 6.5x55, I'd rather have a bit more for a bull. I bring up a guide as they are pretty smart about these things and have seen it all. I know of several guide services here in NM who don't allow any caliber less than .30 on Oryx, 7mm mag. being an exception, this is an animal that has killed African lions. Just because something CAN kill an animal doesn't mean it's a good idea. Elk, Moose, and Elephants have been killed with a .22 lr. A .25-'06 for deer-sized game, yes all day long.

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Each to his own for sure. Got to make yourself comfortable. Use a 375 Mag if that is what makes you confident. You hunt more than me, so I am not going to presume to tell you what you must use. Guides are smart enough to know that most people can't really shoot that well, so they like bigger guns. I know that too. I've seen them shoot. Personally, I can shoot and I am not going to let some guide here tell me what rifle to use if I am the one paying him big bucks. I would take my big bucks elsewhere if they tried.

I owned and loaded for a 25-06. Took it elk hunting in northern Colorado. I am a good shot and I am comfortable with my ammo. Anyway, there is plenty of expert opinion that the 25-06 is good on the big stuff. I sent you a link to some.

By the way, I am pretty familiar what a 6.5x55 or a Creed will do as I own and load for a 260. I am fine with them too. As a comparison, a 115 25 cal Ballistic Tip equals a 120 grain 6.5mm ballistic tip in BC and SD and the 25-06 fires it's bullet at least 100 fps faster than the 260 can manage. It equals what a 6.5/284 can do velocity wise with the 6.5mm 120 ballistic tip. My data is coming from the Nosler reloading manual on my desk.

I harken back to the days of my pioneer ancestors. They made elk in this state extinct and they didn't use 300 magnum rifles to do it. I really don't think elk got tougher since then.

I'm not sure what the initial publication / upload date is for this info but it's been around quite a while now. Dating can be approximated by reference to Winchester offering 25-06 Remington factory ammunition loaded with the 110 grain Nosler Accubond at published 3100 fps MV. Winchester no longer offers this load, but Federal has for a while, including 3100 fps published muzzle velocity.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.25-06+Remington.html

Excerpt on general performance

"Debate is always rife regarding the game weight limitations of the .25-06. The .25-06 is often declared a lighter medium game cartridge but realistically the .25-06 would fit the needs of most hunters world wide. This is an ideal cartridge for a great many of the worlds deer species so perhaps it is best regarded as simply either a medium game or deer cartridge rather than a lighter medium game cartridge. On light medium game, the .25-06 is a spectacular killer to say the least. On larger medium game, the .25-06 can be relied on to produce clean kills. This cartridge is really at its limit on Elk sized game for ordinary hunting / cross body shots if fast humane kills are to be expected. The .25-06 will indeed handle much larger animals with carefully placed head and neck shots but such situations should be considered the extreme."

Excerpt on the Nosler Accubond factory load previously mentioned.

"For all-round use, Winchester’s 110 grain Nosler Accubond load combines high BC’s and explosive performance with optimum penetration. The Accubond gives deep penetration on light bodied animals but will not penetrate vitals from tail on shots on larger bodied deer. Winchester suggest that the Accubond is best suited to light thin skinned game however the 110 grain Accubond optimizes the performance of the .25-06 for those who wish to hunt game the size of Elk (320kg/700lb) which are truly the upper limit for this versatile cartridge."

Current Federal factory ammunition loaded with the 110 grain Accubond with published muzzle velocity of 3100 fps. I've had excellent performance from this load on a feral hog.

https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/nosler-accubond/11-P2506A1.html

Excerpt on two other Federal factory 25-06 Remington offerings.

"Federal’s other offerings are the 117 grain Sierra GameKing and the 115 grain Nosler Partition at 2990fps for 2920fps in shorter barrel lengths. The Sierra is an outstanding longer range deer bullet, again, with suitable shot placement. This projectile opens to a very wide diameter, will almost always produce an exit wound on typically lean bodied animals and produces fast kills. Likewise, the 115 grain Partition is an extremely reliable projectile. To some extent, the Partition does away with the need for the GameKing load. The Partition opens quickly and produces just as wide a wound as the GameKing but also produces far superior penetration - ideal for wild boar as well as woods hunting or deer at awkward angles. The 115 grain Partition is capable of giving full body length penetration on lighter species of Whitetail deer."

Underwood offers factory 25-06 Remington ammunition loaded with the 110 grain Accubond with a published MV of 3250 fps, so does (did?) Doubletap, both have had inventory depleted during the pandemic pandemonium, and I've personally had a far superior customer experience with Underwood than Doubletap.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...osler-accubond-spitzer?variant=18785712242745

Doubletap includes an elevation of 5300 ft in their calculated performance data

https://doubletapammo.com/collections/all/products/25-06-remington-110gr-nosler-accubond-20rds

Here's a comparable writeup on the 6.5X55mm

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/6.5x55.html

Excerpt on the 140 grain Nosler Partition

"The 140 grain Partition is without a doubt the most effective all around projectile for the Swede. Nothing else comes remotely close. This is a bullet that time after time, produces a deep, broad, violent wound resulting in fast kills. The Partition exits medium game at speeds fast enough to ensure complete disruption of vital organ pressures. Light and lean or large and tough, this is the go to bullet in the Swede, reaching its limit (wide wounding) on game weighing around 150kg (330lb) although it is adequate for use on Elk - unless you are sold on the idea that 450kg (1000lb) body weights are what the Swede was designed for. Wounding is wide down to velocities as low as 2200fps (310 yards) becoming moderate as velocities approach 2000fps or 430 yards. For those who use the Swede and have not hunted with this bullet, try it. The Partition should be driven into the major bones of the forwards chest cavity on game of all weights, not because of the bullet design but due to the power limitations of the Swede. Used this way, the Swede is brought to optimum performance."

Doubletap also offers 6.5X55mm ammunition

https://doubletapammo.com/collections/all/6-5x55-swedish

We live in an era with a plethora of both variety of cartridges and projectiles. Now there's Hornady ELD-X, Norma Bondstrike (in 6.5mm), Berger bullets, Federal Fusion, and so on that aren'tpart of these articles.

If one wants to compare theoretical performance differences there's a Ron Spomer article about 25-06 Remington vs 6.5 Creedmoor, could substitute 6.5X55mm for 6.5 Creedmoor, FWIW. There's plenty of history of 6.5X55mm performance on game available for review.

https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/25-06-remington-beats-6-5-creedmoor/

OP, I'd choose more on what's your long term plan for whichever rifle you'll end up keeping. Family keepsake? Game and field conditions? Name prestige? Personal "fit" for you or your descendants?

Which provides the greatest long term value for you, however you define value, is the one to keep.

if your 6.5x55 drops like a rock after 200 yards you must be shooting a 156-160 grain round nose at 2400 fps in a older milsurp. i assure you that a 120gr nosler bt at 3000 + fps and a 140 gr nosler bt at 2900 + fps doesn,t drop like a rock and will run with the best of them. my cz 550 with a 24" barrel will do that with N-560.

eastbank said:

if your 6.5x55 drops like a rock after 200 yards you must be shooting a 156-160 grain round nose at 2400 fps in a older milsurp. i assure you that a 120gr nosler bt at 3000 + fps and a 140 gr nosler bt at 2900 + fps doesn,t drop like a rock and will run with the best of them. my cz 550 with a 24" barrel will do that with N-560.

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I don't reload. Given the limitations of factory 6.5x55 ammo I'm thinking for my next antelope hunt using my .30-'06 with 150 gr. or under ammo. Would you agree? This is why I won't take a shot over 200 yards with the Swede, I once shot at a cow elk broadside a bit over 300 years and held over what I thought was enough, the bullet landed short of the feet. For an antelope at the same range I held head high and hit it in the knee. I did get that one, but it was a long day. You live and learn. We have a great city range in Albuquerque but it only goes to 200 yards.

HowieG said:

Each to his own for sure. Got to make yourself comfortable. Use a 375 Mag if that is what makes you confident.

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Not for me, see above, IMHO a .30-'06 is enough for anything in North America.

You hunt more than me, so I am not going to presume to tell you what you must use. Guides are smart enough to know that most people can't really shoot that well, so they like bigger guns. I know that too. I've seen them shoot.

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Novice shooters think that way, I think any knowledgeable one like a guide, you or me would say people shoot worse with a larger recoil gun they can't handle.

even at the low speed the factory norma 139 gr bullet started at 2700 fps (safe in swedish army rifles in good condition) with a 200 yard zero the drop at 300 yards is 8.5 "(fpe1437) and at 400 yards with the same zero the drop is 24.4"(fpe1221) and at 500 yards the drop is 49.3"( fpe)1033. shoot the same bullet with the same 200 yard zero at 2900 fps and the numbers look like this, 300 yards drop-7.2",fpe1681, 400 yards drop-20.8",fpe1437, 500 yards drop- 41.9", fpe1222. these figures at from the hornady handbook. is it possible you under estamated the ranges you were shooting and the aminals were farther out.

ExAgoradzo said:

I was AFK for a day or so...

These are the responses I expected. The Sako IS a nicer rifle. And, my Ruger .270 Win IS my fav rifle (my dads I inherited may have something to do with that...). My .22-250 is also Ruger M77

I don’t urgently need the cash: I won’t sell either yet. I bought that Sako a couple years ago for my recoil shy son. Still like the gun I shoot 129 GMT out of it: hasn’t touched flesh yet, but the paper doesn’t like it (shoots better than I do). BTW: I don’t plan on hinting farther than would make a difference between these calibers.

Also: I haven’t taken the 2506 out to shoot yet: that may also help this question. But I suspect it will shoot better than I.

Anyway. Thanks I always like reading responses on these kinds of questions...

Greg

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Give the Sako to the son you bought it for, keep the .25-06. Or sell the .25-06 and load the .270 to it’s potential in a variety of loadings to do everything either 6.5x55 or .25-06 can do.

eastbank said:

even at the low speed the factory norma 139 gr bullet started at 2700 fps (safe in swedish army rifles in good condition) with a 200 yard zero the drop at 300 yards is 8.5 "(fpe1437) and at 400 yards with the same zero the drop is 24.4"(fpe1221) and at 500 yards the drop is 49.3"( fpe)1033. shoot the same bullet with the same 200 yard zero at 2900 fps and the numbers look like this, 300 yards drop-7.2",fpe1681, 400 yards drop-20.8",fpe1437, 500 yards drop- 41.9", fpe1222. these figures at from the hornady handbook. is it possible you under estamated the ranges you were shooting and the aminals were farther out.

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No, both times a guide confirmed the range with a range finder.

Paul7 said:

Not for me, see above, IMHO a .30-'06 is enough for anything in North America.



Novice shooters think that way, I think any knowledgeable one like a guide, you or me would say people shoot worse with a larger recoil gun they can't handle.

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Agreed. That is why I believe a shooter should use what he his most comfortable with. Can't kill what you can't hit.

Question, Paul. Would you consider a 270 Winchester 130 grain bullet adequate for bull elk??

maybe the animals were on the short side. the 200 yard zero with the 139 gr bullet at 2700 fps the drop would only about 8.5" at 300 yards,, not enough to miss either animals.

eastbank said:

even at the low speed the factory norma 139 gr bullet started at 2700 fps (safe in swedish army rifles in good condition) with a 200 yard zero the drop at 300 yards is 8.5 "(fpe1437) and at 400 yards with the same zero the drop is 24.4"(fpe1221) and at 500 yards the drop is 49.3"( fpe)1033. shoot the same bullet with the same 200 yard zero at 2900 fps and the numbers look like this, 300 yards drop-7.2",fpe1681, 400 yards drop-20.8",fpe1437, 500 yards drop- 41.9", fpe1222. these figures at from the hornady handbook. is it possible you under estamated the ranges you were shooting and the aminals were farther out.

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I don't see Norma currently offering 6.5X55mm factory ammunition loaded with a 139 grain bullet.

Norma offers 6.5X55mm factory ammunition loaded with a 143 grain Bondstrike Supreme bullet, G1 BC = 0.629 with a published MV of 2723 fps if a load with less drop is desired. Also a load with a 140 grain Nosler Partition, G1 BC = 0.467 with a published muzzle velocity of 2690 fps.

HowieG said:

Question, Paul. Would you consider a 270 Winchester 130 grain bullet adequate for bull elk??

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I have no experience with a .270, I know Elmer Keith would have said no.

Mr. Zorg said:

Norma offers 6.5X55mm factory ammunition loaded with a 143 grain Bondstrike Supreme bullet, G1 BC = 0.629 with a published MV of 2723 fps if a load with less drop is desired.

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Interesting, any idea what the 300 yard trajectory would be?

Also a load with a 140 grain Nosler Partition, G1 BC = 0.467 with a published muzzle velocity of 2690 fps.

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Paul7 said:

Interesting, any idea what the 300 yard trajectory would be?

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Norma shows this stuff including velocity, drop, drift, and energy on their web site, I'm traveling (but not driving) ATM and there's no way I'm going to retype all that info into a post.

A broader publication is the RUAG 2020-2021 catalog, an English language version is available for download and viewing at this link. That includes other brands under the RUAG umbrella like RWS and Geco as well as Norma.

https://rws-ammunition.com/en/service/downloads/catalogue-hunting-and-targetshooting

Paul7 said:

I have no experience with a .270, I know Elmer Keith would have said no.

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Yeah ole Elmer was the big and slow bullet guy. Jack O'Connor was the modern (for the time) high velocity guy. He is the reason the 270 is so popular today. He used a very nice 270 Winchester Model 70 customized by Al Biesen. Just a wonderful gun. The scope is a 4X Leupold Mountaineer.

View attachment 971270

Barbaroja said:

Even if that was their granddads ruger?

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Nobody said it was that I saw, but you are correct, that would be a consideration. I was just discussing with my son who should get my dad's classic firearms. I have a couple Rugers and I like them. Just never considered them heirlooms or collectable. But maybe my grandkids would want them because they were mine. Some of my kids and grandkids aren't even interested in guns. I am more worried that they would turn them in to the government or sell them. It's a struggle for us old guys to see what the world is coming to. My son and one grandson like guns and hunting so I am lucky there.

d2wing said:

Nobody said it was that I saw, but you are correct, that would be a consideration. I was just discussing with my son who should get my dad's classic firearms. I have a couple Rugers and I like them. Just never considered them heirlooms or collectable. But maybe my grandkids would want them because they were mine. Some of my kids and grandkids aren't even interested in guns. I am more worried that they would turn them in to the government or sell them. It's a struggle for us old guys to see what the world is coming to. My son and one grandson like guns and hunting so I am lucky there.

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I meant to ask earlier, but is the Ruger a first generation with the dogleg bolt and tang safety?

The OP said that family history was not a factor. I would take that as face value. Again I would prefer the Sako by a big margin. The caliber is near a toss-up with me preferring the 6.5 by a slight margin.

I shoot elk with powerful magnum rifles with relatively powerful great glass. There is too much money $ and hunting time involved. Although my favorite all around deer cartridge is a .308, I have moved to a .25-06 on deer hunts in Northern CA. Or Oregon. I have happily used Nosler Partitions in many cartridges and in Alaska to Africa , but those Accubonds are indeed flat shooting , accurate and good violent penetrative wounds. I must use non lead in Calif. The .25-06 is a super open country deer r) antelope gun to 500 yards my Mauser Straight pull .25-06 with a Meopta scope weighs 7 pounds and hold 6" at 500 yards with the Federal Accubonds load.

d2wing said:

The OP said that family history was not a factor. I would take that as face value. Again I would prefer the Sako by a big margin. The caliber is near a toss-up with me preferring the 6.5 by a slight margin.

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I guess I would have to know which Sako and even that wouldn't mean much since I have never handled any Sako. Don't know if I like them or not. I know that certain models are pretty expensive.