How to get killed...

I remember that episode. Was that the one where they did the ballistic trajectory through the roof too?

Chamber empty carry = not ready to defend self.

Chamber empty and self-clearing has quite a following on THR. Almost as good as running outside to wave a nonfunctional crap gun at a crazed mob of AK-47 wielders.

Good post, John.

PS - did a lot of FOF being the homeowner. Some of the new folks heard the bad guys and went to clear their castle grounds as it was their stuff, by God and Texas. The instructors knocked them on their butts and 'shot them' decisively.

"Guns are magic--just having one will definitely protect you."

Unfortunately, this idea is far more widespread among owners than they will admit. Much like fast car owners, possession doesn't mean skill. Youtube is full of flying Lambo videos, Cobra's hitting curbs videos, street exhibition racers hitting crowds video, etc.

The concept of ownership empowering people is far more widespread than just guns. Ask any Iphone owner. A gun is a mark of status to many and the ability to actually use it in any workmanlike manner isn't important. It's owning it. To show up to an actual training course would only expose them to self ridicule about their lack of skills and worse, it would be public, among peers.

This is one reason that holds back casual gun owners from seeking more education and training.

Taking the recently passed Mr. 1911 as a case, he was following a lot of his contemporary training instituted in the military at the time. You rarely were issued the weapon except for marksmanship, ammo was handed to you on the range, you returndd the brass in equal amounts, and you turned in the weapon at the end of the day, to see it next year. Loaded gun in the house? Not over HER dead body, we have spousal issues to deal with there. Staying put in your safe area to call the cops? Sorry, too many western movies exhibiting tactics that no longer apply. Yet, when was the updated training conducted? Never. We do the same with vehicle drivers - no further instruction past the intial license and good luck to you, folks. An SCCA license? What, you drive cars dangerously fast? Hmmm. You actually shoot targets that use a human shape? Really?

The gun community hasn't even fixed that one yet.

We got a long road ahead of us.When we get gun owners to recognize that bullseye targets are NOT tactical training, then we have taken a step forward.

JohnKSa said:

Just watched a depressing Forensic Files episode called "Dockter Visit".

A man broke into a house. The homeowner woke up, retrieved a 1911 pistol and went to investigate.

The criminal apparently heard the homeowner and laid in wait for him. He killed the man with a single shot through the neck and took his gun.

The man's accomplice (who later turned state's evidence) stated that the attacker examined the homeowner's gun after stealing it and found that it did not have a round chambered.

When the gun was recovered from the murderer, it was loaded with ammunition that matched what was found in the deceased's home. The ammunition, upon consulting with the manufacturer, was found to be at least 30 years old.

So here are the steps:

1. Don't practice. Buy some ammo, load your gun and then don't bother with it after that. Guns are magic--just having one will definitely protect you.

2. Carry chamber empty. You'll certainly have time to chamber a round if you're taken by surprise. Especially given the proficiency you've developed through your rigorous training program over the past few decades.

3. Try to clear your house alone if you hear a noise. Don't listen to folks who say that you have the advantage if you move to a protected spot behind cover, prepare to defend yourself and summon the authorities. Get a gun and start walking around looking for a bullet from the front end.

I'm not trying to insult the homeowner--I just wish things had worked out differently. The point is that we can learn from the circumstances and outcome.

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YES,YES,YES ,this is spot on and needs to be read and heeded by any & all .

A gun is NOT a magic talisman that will ward off evil and save your butt,if YOU did not train for whatever scenario you plan on encountering.

AND = fact is you cannot possibly train for all scenarios so TRAIN as if your life and the life of your loved one's depends on it.

Your not shooting a "target" you are shooting a "threat" ------ I pray you all can see the difference.

And empty gun is a badly balanced hammer.

You seem to know what the outcome would have been otherwise. How do you know? What happened after the homeowner was shot? Were there other's in the house? Family, roommates? My rule of thumb is I'm not going downstairs with a firearm to investigate, unless someone has called 911. And if someone calls 911, then I probably am going to seek shelter and wait vs. going to get into a possible armed conflict.

Hate hearing about people getting killed in their own homes, it is just so wrong.

Of course, we don't know alternative outcomes. Maybe Mr. 1911 would have done a John Wick and made it. However, we know from experience that unchambered guns are a handicap and single clearing is a significant risk. I'm not exploring unless in the extreme situation of having to save a loved one.

Why does calling 911 make it ok to investigate?

Tell you what we did in the FOF when we 'heard' there was a bad guy. We armed up, hunkered down. We yelled that we were armed and the police had been called and on their way. We took cover or concealment.

Also, in homes, one can have alarm panels in the 'safe' room that will sound obnoxious sirens and call the law. Now some folks say that the law is 30 minutes away, so they won't call until after they engage. Huh, start them rolling ASAP. Why latter? Second, it establishes that you are defending yourself. It gets the med resources on the way.

GEM said:

Tell you what we did in the FOF when we 'heard' there was a bad guy....

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What does "FOF" stand for?

Kleanbore said:

I don't read it that way.

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The title of the thread is how to get killed. This implies his death was his fault, and not the fault of the two murderous cirminals who broke into his home and murdered him. I get the discussion on self defense tactics, has value, just think blaming a murder victim for his own death seems a bit sick in the head to me.

P89DCSS said:

What does "FOF" stand for?

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Force on Force I suspect

Kleanbore said:

That one is of the kind about which we do not read in "The Armed Citizen".

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Nope. Because it doesn't fit the narrative.

The homeowner never had a chance once he left his bedroom. Round in chamber or not, practiced or not, never mattered in this case. Once the homeowner left the safety of the bedroom he was going to die. He should have sheltered in place and dialed 911.

I think it just goes to prove that some gun owners have no idea how to use a gun for home or self defense. I understand 9that does not mean agree) that some semi owners leave the chamber empty. I just do not understand why. I also do not understand a gun owner not having some basic knowledge about home defense techniques. A gun without proper training and preparation is a good way but get killed. The OP naked that clear.

One important part of FOF is the after action analysis. After being truly 'killed', you had to analyze how you got killed. Why did you do that stupid thing. Qualified people commented. Smart people took it to heart. Ego driven folks got huffy, puffy.

So when I fled and didn't look carefully on what was outside, I ran into three folks with full auto airsoft guns close up. Now that close they break the skin and you bleed and get awesome bruises. Then, you sit with group and why did you do that? Explaining all the damage in the liberal artsy gym was fun. Did you fall down and go boom?

Or terrorists take over a court room, you disarm a terrorist and shoot them with their own gun. Why did you do that? Shouldn't you have held them at gun point as the police were storming (as they were). Well, the terrorist was reaching for the gun (we were entangled), so from a retention position - bang. STOP. Excercise over. The state police (who were taking part) thought my shot was righteous. One big old trooper, said: It works for me.

How you got killed is a good way to put it. Good FOF might have some you are expected to win, some which are dicey and a few which you can't more likely. Each is lesson.

Before “force on force” came about, my agency designed and implemented an officer survival course and filmed every exercise to show officers errors in their tactics in various situations on the street. This was long before the armed citizen movement and was set up around vehicle stops, chases on dirt roads - and every kind of ambush that we knew of - that resulted in officer deaths around the country.. Using only blanks for the “bad guy trainers” every officer that participated was “killed” at least once, some on more than one occasion.. It was a sobering exercise since it was demonstrated just how vulnerable bad tactics could leave even a well seasoned and skilled officer…

At the end of each session all involved viewed the video of each scenario and hopefully learned a thing or two…

Small errors in your tactics in an armed confrontation or even in ordinary encounters when no weapons or assaults of any kind are expected can leave you in a very bad position if trouble erupts. The good guys don’t always win…

I don't think blaming the man for his own demise is an accurate description. To say he contributed to it definitely is. Giving up any concealment advantage and taking an offensive approach took him away from his best chance to defend himself and put him in position to be ambushed.

It was likely he would have been killed whether he had a round chambered or not, because he put himself in that position. At that point he might as well have yelled "I'm armed, come out with your hands up!"
Which is just as bad as saying " I'm walking down the hallway toward the bathroom right now".

To say he died as he wanted to die, as a man isn't probably very accurate either. If he wanted to die, he wouldn't have picked up the gun to begin with. Given that in most areas shooting people for stealing from you is frowned upon, there really wasn't anything manly about anything he did.