45 ACP Bullet Setback

higgite said:

I hope you have informed Lee of their design and marketing errors, as they advertise and sell the FCD to "post-size" the cartridge, not as a standard resizing die with a crimping feature. Unless I'm misreading you, you're suggesting the proper procedure for using an FCD is to prime and charge a fired, not-resized case, set a bullet atop the case, seat the bullet to the desired COL and then run the cartridge through the FCD to resize it from it's fired size to factory spec while at the same time applying a crimp. I'm curious how you get a bullet to not slip into a case that has been fired and not resized until it hits the FCD.

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Apparently you've never tried to put a .451" jacketed bullet into fired 45acp cases. You wouldn't be so curious and would actually have 1st hand knowledge on what works and why.

Here's 10 random r-p 45acp cases I pulled out of a container of range puck-up 45acp brass. The brass is not sized/cleaned/nada. Simply picked up out of the dirt and tossed into a container. I have no idea when these were collected or what firearms they were shot out of. I can say it's been slim pickins this year with the ammo/reloading components shortages going on. It took 6 months to fill a coffee container 1/2 full/ 20+ range trips.

2 of the r-p cases would accept the .451" jacketed bullet and easily held it tight enough to hold the bullet in place. (2 bullets on left)
6 of the r-p cases would barely accept the .451" jacketed bullets holding onto them but as you can see the bullets are crooked. (4 showing and 2 turned to read the r-p head stamps)
The 2 upside down r-p cases on the right would not allow a .451" bullet into their case mouths.


Anyway that 10 un-sized r-p 45acp cases with 2 of them able to start a bullet strait along with having the ability to hold onto the bullet/take force to seat the bullet. 6 of the r-p 45acp un-sized cases were too tight and would not allow the .451" jacketed bullet to start strait. 2 r-p 45ACP UN-SIZED cases were to tight to allow the .451" jacketed bullet to even start.

You really should do some re-reading and testing for yourself.

I understand it's a heck of a lot easier to sit in front of a keyboard and type. But there's this thing called "sweat equity". If you put in the sweat equity you will rewarded/rich in knowledge. And not have to rely on other or question what others (including people like ED Harris) are actually doing.

higgite said:

Re "final sizing", that's as opposed to initial sizing.

Re "post sizing", an excerpt from Lee's website: "A carbide sizer inside the Carbide Factory Crimp die post-sizes the cartridge while it is crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability."
A link to that web page: https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die

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You read it as sizing again after a case has been sized in a sizing die. Fantastic!!!!

I read it as the fcd post sizes the case As in sizing the case after the bullet is seated (post sizing)

Gee I wonder how the factory ammo is sized and crimped at the same time???? They must use what's known as a factory crimp die.

I've tried to explain it as best I could. I posted quotes from ED Harris who did work for lee. And how not only the factory makes ammunition, how to duplicate how the factory makes ammunition using a lee fcd die.

Believe what I you, it matters not to me. Use a fcd die as you see fit.

At the end of the day the factories size and crimp their bullets at the same time/same die. The lee factory crimp die has a carbide sizer and is setup to crimp at the same time it sizes.

forrest r said:

For some odd reason I can't find the statement "post sizing" anywhere

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I have not needed this Lee die in over 50 years of reloading.

forrest r said:

Select the Deluxe Pistol 4-die set when using mixed range brass or brass that was fired in others guns. The Deluxe set includes the Carbide Factory crimp die. This die allows you to separate bullet seating from the crimping operation. It makes setup much easier and the die has the added feature of a carbide resizer that does a finishing sizing pass on the completed round. This final sizing guarantees that any case that passes through the die will freely and reliably chamber in any gun.

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But why would LEE include a sizing die with the set if it wasn't needed.....?

There is also a video ON THE PAGE that you linked to, that talks about the sizing die itself......ALSO states that the FCD is used to separate the seating stage from the crimping stage......



Hey.......just doing my " sweat equity " here..........

Soonerpesek said:

I would like to see an explanation as to how he does that also...




I would read this as the entire case is held while crimping, to help eliminate case buckling.....

BUT.......I have no experience with the FCD yet, and the only reason I have one is to bulge bust cases on the APP


Set includes:

* Carbide Factory Crimp Die
* Powder Through Expanding Die
* Bullet Seat & Feed Die
* Carbide Sizing Die
* Shellholder
* Powder measure and charge table

This is on the LEE website about the 4 die sets....NOTICE that the set includes a CARBIDE SIZING DIE ( along with the FCD ).......

That would indicate to me the LEE wants you to size the case before expanding and seating.......

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Man you guys need to spend more time at the reloading bench and less time on the keyboard. Anyone with bullets laying around and some un-sized brass can take 5 minutes out of their busy day and see if a bullet can or can't go into an un-sized case. Along with if it does is there enough neck tension to hold that bullet in place until a lee fcd die can size the case/bullet at the same time marrying them together along with putting a taper crimp on the case.

The lee fcd die only comes in a "deluxe" set of dies. Having all these dies allows the reloader a lot more options on how they want make their reloads. Just because a set of dies comes with multiple choices in how to do something doesn't mean you have to use all of the choices at the same time.

You want to use needless steps while reloading that can have adverse affects on the quality of your reloads??? Be my guest,

Myself I have no use for the lee fcd dies and gave them away for the 45acp & 9mm. I know how to reload those calibers using a standard 3-die set. The only time I've ever used a lee fcd die was when I was loading hbwc's in the 38spl's and 44spl's. I gave both of those fcd dies away when I sold my 624/quit shooting nra bullseye.

forrest r said:

You want to use needless steps while reloading that can have adverse affects on the quality of your reloads??? Be my guest,

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......So.........Initial case sizing is a needless step..............

Maybe YOU should spend more time at the bench....

Soonerpesek said:

But why would LEE include a sizing die with the set if it wasn't needed.....?

There is also a video ON THE PAGE that you linked to, that talks about the sizing die itself......ALSO states that the FCD is used to separate the seating stage from the crimping stage......



Hey.......just doing my " sweat equity " here..........

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You're absolutely correct!!!

When you use a 3-die set or the common 3 dies in your 4-die set you can use the fcd die as a "fail safe tool" (lee's words not mine)

Screw the lee carbide factory crimp die in, until it just touches the shell holder and back out the adjusting screw. With the loaded round in the die, turn the adjusting screw in until you can feel it just touch the case mouth. Then move the cartridge out of the die slightly and screw the adjusting screw in ½ turn for a light crimp and one full turn for a heavy crimp. You can adjust for even greater crimp and never have to worry about buckling the case as with conventional crimpers. The case is sized as it enters the die and again as it is pulled out of the die. This assures you every case will freely chamber in any standard gun. Don’t expect the carbide sizer to touch every case. It is a fail safe tool for the occasional bad round that could ruin your day.

Lee also states you can use their seating die to crimp the bullet also in the instructions that are for their bullet seating die.

Raise the ram to the top of its stroke and hold. Screw the bullet seating die in until it touches the shell holder; then back it out three full turns. For magnum cases, back out the bullet seating die an additional 1¾ turns. Lightly finger tighten the lock ring. Bullet depth is adjusted by screwing the adjusting screw in or out to suit. Bullets should be seated deep enough to work through the gun’s action. See maximum overall length on charge table. If a crimp is desired, screw the die in slightly and test until the proper crimp is formed. Cases must be trimmed to the same length to provide a uniform crimp. Excessive crimp causes the bullet seater to deform soft nose bullets

So you can:
Use the the sizer/expander/seating & crimp die to make reloads and throw the fcd die away.
Use the sizing die/expander/seting die (no crimp) and then run the reload up in the lee fcd die crimping the bullet along with using the fcd die as a glorified case gauge or as lee put it a fail safe tool.
Use the sizing die/expander/seat & crimp die and then use the lee fcd die to re-size and re-crimp the reload
Use the sizing die to de-prime the brass only/expander/seat the bullet only and then use a lee fcd die to size the case & bullet at the same time time creating a consistent/even neck tension the whole length of the bullet along with putting a taper crimp on the bullet at the same time.

There's a bunch of ways to use these dies. No matter how you slice and dice it multiple sizing of the case per 1 reload is never a good thing. Resizing the case while the bullet has already been reformed/swaged to the case internal diameter is not good for the bullet or neck tension on that bullet.

The fine line between good and not so good happens when the fcd die has to alter/re-size the reload to conform to saami spec.

This is why lee states don't expect the carbide sizer to touch every case when it's being used as a failsafe tool"

Soonerpesek said:

......So.........Initial case sizing is a needless step..............

Maybe YOU should spend more time at the bench....

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Maybe not for you!!!

When I use a lee fcd die I don't bother wasting my time full length sizing cases. Nor do I bother sizing my cast/pc'd bullets. The lee fcd die sizes both of them at the same time for me in 1 easy step.

But if you want to waste your time doing the old pagan rituals of sizing the brass and sizing the bullets, by all means go for it

Here is a pic of 45-70 unsized cases that I just lightly pressed COATED LEAD ...".459....into the cases---NO bullet retention at all.....

There are quite a few members here that load this round and use the FCD.......you can't tell us they DON'T sized the cases first, and rely on the FCD to do that at the final reloading stage....


ONCE AGAIN......just doin' my SWEAT EQUITY.......

I'm extremely impressed with what people perceive on what "post sizing" actually means.

It has nothing to do with sizing a case and everything to do with the bullet. The lee fcd die sizes the case and the bullet at the same time. Hence post sizing while crimping (post in as after the bullet is seated). Lee is talking about the bullet, you know the thing you are crimping

Impressive!!!
I have to size my cases expand them seat the bullet and then re-size the case while crimping the bullet.

OKEY-DOKEY

forrest r said:

So you can:
Use the the sizer/expander/seating & crimp die to make reloads and throw the fcd die away.
Use the sizing die/expander/seting die (no crimp) and then run the reload up in the lee fcd die crimping the bullet along with using the fcd die as a glorified case gauge or as lee put it a fail safe tool.
Use the sizing die/expander/seat & crimp die and then use the lee fcd die to re-size and re-crimp the reload
Use the sizing die to de-prime the brass only/expander/seat the bullet only and then use a lee fcd die to size the case & bullet at the same time time creating a consistent/even neck tension the whole length of the bullet along with putting a taper crimp on the bullet at the same time.

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How on earth does one use a SIZING die to deprime only----without SIZING the case.....?!?!?!?!?


These are your words man......!

forrest r said:

Impressive!!!
I have to size my cases expand them seat the bullet and then re-size the case while crimping the bullet.

OKEY-DOKEY

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Did you even look at the pic I posted......

Do you understand the words you type....???

Soonerpesek said:

View attachment 1038731

Here is a pic of 45-70 unsized cases that I just lightly pressed COATED LEAD ...".459....into the cases---NO bullet retention at all.....

There are quite a few members here that load this round and use the FCD.......you can't tell us they DON'T sized the cases first, and rely on the FCD to do that at the final reloading stage....


ONCE AGAIN......just doin' my SWEAT EQUITY.......

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I'm not telling anyone to do anything. It's up to the reloader to use/do what they feel is best for themselves.

I will say and have said it's not a good thing to resize the cases with the bullets in them. The cases spring back and the bullets don't. Hence loss of neck tension.

I really am glad that you posted this. Prime example of someone that really doesn't know what a lee factory crimp die actually does or how it works.

As far as your case/bullet fit, no big surprise there. But why someone would use a sloppy chambering round like a 45-70 that head spaces on a rim at the back of the buss is kinda typical/goes along with the rest of your post. The op was talking about the 45acp and specifically r-p 45acp brass. The 45acp head spaces on the case mouth, but I guess you never give such trivial things much thought.

Anyway the op stated 45acp r-p brass and .451" jacketed bullets.

I guess I should grab some 357 brass that was fired in a sloppy chambered contender barrel that headspaces on the rim and watch the bullets bounce around in them and then proclaim to the world "SEE TOLD YOU SO".

forrest r said:

But why someone would use a sloppy chambering round like a 45-70

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YOU are the one that said initial sizing is not needed if one uses the FCD.....

Once again you have shown in this thread that you forget / don't understand what you type.....

forrest r said:

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. It's up to the reloader to use/do what they feel is best for themselves.

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No......but you sure are telling people that they are doing it WRONG........

Soonerpesek said:

How on earth does one use a SIZING die to deprime only----without SIZING the case.....?!?!?!?!?


These are your words man......!

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WOW, great question!!!!

Well there's this thing that's kinda pointy that goes into this hole called a flash hole. That pointy thing goes thru the flash hole and pushes on the primer as the handle on the reloading press is raised. Or a more simple version is the old wack-a-mole hammer decapper pin.

O wait a minute you want to know how to use a sizing die. Ok got it!!!

Well the sizing die screws into a thing called a reloading press. It the sizing die is a pointy thing called a decapping pin. It job is to knock the primer out of the case. You screw the sizing die down to adjust the not only the amount of sizing you want to do on the case. You can adjust the amount of the decapping pin depth. You you adjust the sizing die down until the decapping pin knocks the primer out. But not down far enough so that the sizing die body resizes the case.

The 45acp case is tapered, caveman simple to adjust the sizing die so it takes the primer out without sizing the case.

Myself, I've used sizing dies this way along with the old standby wak-a-mole hammer/pin method along with universal decapping dies.

Or I like to use pieces and parts like taking a 6mm fl sizing die and using it to deprime 223rem brass. Set a bullet on that deprimed/neck expanded case and seat it. Then use a lee collet crimp die and look out, fantastic ammo that's caveman simple to make!!!

Anyway I'm really really really impressed you had to ask how to adjust a 45acp sizing die.

forrest r said:

Anyway I'm really really really impressed you had to ask how to adjust a 45acp sizing die.

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HAHAHA.......

What I have concluded throughout this discussion....Is that I wouldn't ask YOU how to do anything.....

Soonerpesek said:

No......but you sure are telling people that they are doing it WRONG........

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About the last one with this thread, been fun!!!

Glad you think that using a lee fcd die to mask other reloading issues is a good thing.
Glad to see that you think it a good thing to do multiple sizing on the same case that alters the bullets size/shape and the neck tension that's being applied to it.

At the end of the day the op was having issues with his sizing die and specific bullets not having enough neck tension. I simply put out there he might actually try using a lee fcd die the way it was made/intended to be used. Along with getting away from a lee sizing die that for whatever reason isn't up to the task. I also put out there that multiple sizing of the brass especially while the bullet is in it is not doing anything positive for his neck tension issues. And in actually it's making things worse.

Been fun!!!
Thank you everyone have a great day

forrest r said:

Glad you think that using a lee fcd die to mask other reloading issues is a good thing.
Glad to see that you think it a good thing to do multiple sizing on the same case that alters the bullets size/shape and the neck tension that's being applied to it.

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Stated on this thread that I haven't used the FCD....so once again you're just making things up......

Also... glad to see that you quit when you get called out.....

You have a GREAT day also......!

243winxb said:

View attachment 1038723 View attachment 1038724

I have not needed this Lee die in over 50 years of reloading.

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I have an earlier version of that die, it has a carbide ring which will size the complete round after seating and crimping the bullet. And it squishes the bullet. It was my recollection that bullets came out loose after going through that die. Maybe the memory is wrong, but after realizing that the bullet was being resized, I decided I did not want smaller bullets. As long as my round chambers and extracts, life is great.

If a weapon needs the Lee FCD resizing the loaded round, I think the chamber is too tight. Or there is something massively wrong with case wall thickness.

forrest r said:

About the last one with this thread, been fun!!!
.
.
.
Been fun!!!
Thank you everyone have a great day

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So, forest, you're the only one on the forum that knows how to properly use a Lee FCD as it was intended, even though contrary to how Lee says it's intended to be used. Impressive!

As Walkalong inferred, you're method will work with brand new unfired brass, like the factory uses. Reloading fired cases? Not so much.

You made a wise decision to stop with your last post. You have a great day, too.

243winxb said:

https://leeprecision.com/undersize-sizing-die-45-acp.html. May help. Expander diameter should be .449"

Measure the outside diameter of the case before and after seating the bullet. After seating, diameter should be larger by a minimum of .002"

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This thread has been an eye opener for me. I assumed I did not have any setback with my 45acp loads, but now I realized I need to test for setback more often.

I think I am going to invest in the undersize sizing die, but keep the rest of my process the same: resize -> prime -> expand -> powder -> seat bullet -> crimp with Lee FCD.

Stay safe everybody and trust your process.

You can still use RP brass for lead, if sized tight enough, but should use brass with thicker case walls for jacketed/plated (smaller diameter). I use a completely different die set for lead versus jacketed and stick to Winchester and Starline brass. It is not a crime to actually buy brass for 45 ACP.