45 ACP Bullet Setback
- Thread starter 24-7 Dave
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vaalpens
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I created 3 dummy loads this weekend using RP brass and the RMR 230gr FMJ RN bullets. I then manually cycled them through my Sig P220. To my surprise, the setback was more than expected. I'm not sure if this is the bullet or the RP brass, but I will need to keep an eye on this possible setback. Following are the measurements:
Round 1:
1.2525" (loaded)
1.2510" (-.0015")
1.2490" (-.0020")
1.2465" (-.0025")
Total setback: (-.0060")
Round 2:
1.2535" (loaded)
1.2525" (-.0010")
1.2520" (-.0005")
1.2520" (-.0000")
Total setback: (-.0015")
Round 3:
1.2520: (loaded)
1.2500" (-.0020")
1.2500" (-.0000")
1.2480" (-.0020")
Total setback: (-.0040")
Round 1:
1.2525" (loaded)
1.2510" (-.0015")
1.2490" (-.0020")
1.2465" (-.0025")
Total setback: (-.0060")
Round 2:
1.2535" (loaded)
1.2525" (-.0010")
1.2520" (-.0005")
1.2520" (-.0000")
Total setback: (-.0015")
Round 3:
1.2520: (loaded)
1.2500" (-.0020")
1.2500" (-.0000")
1.2480" (-.0020")
Total setback: (-.0040")
Blue68f100
Member
I have all of my RP brass sorted out and stored separately form all my other brass. RP was the only head stamp that gave me problems with Jacketed or plated bullets. My LSWC are over sized enough that they held. I still don't use RP brass to date, since I started shooting 1911's.
24-7 Dave
Member
Back again, sorry for the delay in getting back with my findings, but the "House Commander" assigned some missions that kept me busy yesterday and today, and all I could do was salute and say "Yes Ma'am!"
First, thanks for all the comments and suggestions, very helpful!
As suggested, I re-checked my dies in my Lee Classic Turret press and verified all were set per the instructions for proper sizing, case mouth flaring, seating depth and factory crimp die setting. No surprises, and also I confirmed the expander checked good (0.449).
Next, I put together a series of dummy test rounds using 3 fully processed/prepped cases each from 5 different head stamps (WIN, Federal, RP, Starline and PMC). If you recall, I have been using RP and some Starline cases and getting setbacks with FMJ bullets, but no problems with 230 Gr LRN. After running the brass through the sizer, I checked the outer diameter at the edge of the case mouths and verified all measured 0.469. Although my gauge isn't the best, I also attempted to measure the inside dimensions of each case mouth to see if any head stamps have thinner metal. I don't have a micrometer to measure the thickness itself so I just inserted the gauge about 1/8" into the mouth of each case to check the inner diameter (I marked the tool so I was measuring about the same depth each time) and then compared the ID and OD. Not exactly laboratory grade testing, but it's the best I can do with what I got.
After measuring and recording the case mouth data, I seated new RMR 230 Gr FMJ RN bullets (all 15 bullets selected were really close to 0.451) to a depth of 1.255, and measured each test round's actual COL before loading each one into a 1911 mag and letting the slide slam it into the chamber. After ejecting, I measured the COL again and recorded the difference. I attached a PDF of the spreadsheet I built showing the variations between head stamps. Ironically, the two head stamps I have been using (RP and Starline) are the ones that seem to allow the most setback with a FMJ bullet, with RP cases seeming to allow the bullets to seat slightly deeper during the seating process as well.
Bottom line, by changing seating depth and trying different head stamps I think I have found a partial solution to my problem. Granted, this is only a 3-round sample of each head stamp, and I didn't play with the factory crimp die to try more aggressive crimps, but it just seemed odd that the RP brass allowed much more setback compared to the others using the same settings and components. Based on this little test I think I'll just save my RP brass for LRN rounds and start prepping some WIN, PMC and Federal brass for Jacketed loads going forward.
Please feel free to correct me if my test wasn't structured correctly or if I am drawing an incorrect conclusion, I just want to make sure I'm heading in the right direction before I load any more live rounds. Meanwhile, I'm going to start pulling bullets from the FMJ rounds I previously loaded and start over with different brass.
Again, many thanks to all who have given suggestions and guidance over the past few days to help me work trough this and learn.
First, thanks for all the comments and suggestions, very helpful!
As suggested, I re-checked my dies in my Lee Classic Turret press and verified all were set per the instructions for proper sizing, case mouth flaring, seating depth and factory crimp die setting. No surprises, and also I confirmed the expander checked good (0.449).
Next, I put together a series of dummy test rounds using 3 fully processed/prepped cases each from 5 different head stamps (WIN, Federal, RP, Starline and PMC). If you recall, I have been using RP and some Starline cases and getting setbacks with FMJ bullets, but no problems with 230 Gr LRN. After running the brass through the sizer, I checked the outer diameter at the edge of the case mouths and verified all measured 0.469. Although my gauge isn't the best, I also attempted to measure the inside dimensions of each case mouth to see if any head stamps have thinner metal. I don't have a micrometer to measure the thickness itself so I just inserted the gauge about 1/8" into the mouth of each case to check the inner diameter (I marked the tool so I was measuring about the same depth each time) and then compared the ID and OD. Not exactly laboratory grade testing, but it's the best I can do with what I got.
After measuring and recording the case mouth data, I seated new RMR 230 Gr FMJ RN bullets (all 15 bullets selected were really close to 0.451) to a depth of 1.255, and measured each test round's actual COL before loading each one into a 1911 mag and letting the slide slam it into the chamber. After ejecting, I measured the COL again and recorded the difference. I attached a PDF of the spreadsheet I built showing the variations between head stamps. Ironically, the two head stamps I have been using (RP and Starline) are the ones that seem to allow the most setback with a FMJ bullet, with RP cases seeming to allow the bullets to seat slightly deeper during the seating process as well.
Bottom line, by changing seating depth and trying different head stamps I think I have found a partial solution to my problem. Granted, this is only a 3-round sample of each head stamp, and I didn't play with the factory crimp die to try more aggressive crimps, but it just seemed odd that the RP brass allowed much more setback compared to the others using the same settings and components. Based on this little test I think I'll just save my RP brass for LRN rounds and start prepping some WIN, PMC and Federal brass for Jacketed loads going forward.
Please feel free to correct me if my test wasn't structured correctly or if I am drawing an incorrect conclusion, I just want to make sure I'm heading in the right direction before I load any more live rounds. Meanwhile, I'm going to start pulling bullets from the FMJ rounds I previously loaded and start over with different brass.
Again, many thanks to all who have given suggestions and guidance over the past few days to help me work trough this and learn.
Attachments
Soonerpesek
Member
If your expander is .449".....how can the I.D. of the case mouth be less than that...( according to your chart ).....doesn't the size die squeeze 'em down so the expander can E-X-P-A-N-D them....
Maybe I'm missing something.....It is sorta late.....
Bullet set back is a serious and dangerous thing. Don't let the community let you think it will magically go away with reloading practices. It won't. I experienced this in my 1911 GI RIA
Now from the factory this pistol had a problem, the magazine was held to high and when the slide went forward, the magazine was ejected out the bottom. I called RIA and they sent me a new magazine release
this new release kept the magazine in the gun, and it dropped the magazine a lot lower. I could feel a bump, bump as rounds fed into the chamber, the nose of the bullet is hitting somewhere on the feed ramp before it goes into the chamber. That hit set the bullet back. And that eventually caused this:
this is the load, not a magnum load by any account
Bullet set back created high enough pressures to blow a case head, which blew the magazine internals out, and one of those bullets, or something hit the bench and then me in the jaw! It left a bruise. My beautiful coco bolo grips were cracked.
The solution, more or less, was an EGW higher magazine release. That raised the magazine. I still feel a lesser bump, bump, and bullets still get seated deeper if chambered a couple of times, but so far, no kabooms.
There is something off in the feed geometry of your 1911 and nothing you can do on the reloading bench is going to fix it. If the gun is under warranty send it back to get fixed/adjusted. If you know a good 1911 smith, talk to him and find out if he knows how to fix this. Having a case head blow is dangerous.
Now from the factory this pistol had a problem, the magazine was held to high and when the slide went forward, the magazine was ejected out the bottom. I called RIA and they sent me a new magazine release
this new release kept the magazine in the gun, and it dropped the magazine a lot lower. I could feel a bump, bump as rounds fed into the chamber, the nose of the bullet is hitting somewhere on the feed ramp before it goes into the chamber. That hit set the bullet back. And that eventually caused this:
this is the load, not a magnum load by any account
Bullet set back created high enough pressures to blow a case head, which blew the magazine internals out, and one of those bullets, or something hit the bench and then me in the jaw! It left a bruise. My beautiful coco bolo grips were cracked.
The solution, more or less, was an EGW higher magazine release. That raised the magazine. I still feel a lesser bump, bump, and bullets still get seated deeper if chambered a couple of times, but so far, no kabooms.
There is something off in the feed geometry of your 1911 and nothing you can do on the reloading bench is going to fix it. If the gun is under warranty send it back to get fixed/adjusted. If you know a good 1911 smith, talk to him and find out if he knows how to fix this. Having a case head blow is dangerous.
24-7 Dave
Member
Slamfire, thanks for sharing your graphic example of other factors at work, glad you are OK after that incident and the weapon survived! I never would have suspected that a magazine release would cause such a serious feed issue and the ensuing damage. I'll definitely talk to my gunsmith about my Rock Island 1911 just to be safe. But I also suspect that at least some of my reloading components and/or my reloading practices are also at fault in my case and could give me the same or worse result if I don't get the crimp/case neck tension right and prevent a serious setback when it hits the ramp. Sounds like I need to make sure both the firearm and reloads pass muster before I take it to the range again.
To answer some of the recent questions/comments, yes, the outside dimension measured 0.469 after sizing when I checked with both my (plastic) RCBS dial caliper and my steel CenTec digital caliper. To be honest, I don't usually apply much force to close the jaws, just enough to nudge against the outside of the open mouth of the cases. However, after reading the comments I re-checked and I can make the number drop to 0.467 by applying slightly more force, so I may have injected an error in my own chart by not applying enough pressure.
Regarding the dimensions of the dummy round after loading and crimping, they are around 0.471 (+/- 0.001) at the mouth, again without pushing hard. Because the crimp appears to be applied right on the edge of the mouth, it was hard to measure accurately for an exact diameter on the crimp itself.
As for the crimp applied, the Lee Factory Crimp Die instructions tell you to turn it down until it touches the case, then apply about a half turn to apply a 'light crimp,’ which is what I used as a starting point for the test rounds. As soon as I get more time I'll try another batch of test rounds using a 3/4 turn on the crimp knob and see if it affect setback.
I appreciate all the advice and inputs from everyone, thanks again!
To answer some of the recent questions/comments, yes, the outside dimension measured 0.469 after sizing when I checked with both my (plastic) RCBS dial caliper and my steel CenTec digital caliper. To be honest, I don't usually apply much force to close the jaws, just enough to nudge against the outside of the open mouth of the cases. However, after reading the comments I re-checked and I can make the number drop to 0.467 by applying slightly more force, so I may have injected an error in my own chart by not applying enough pressure.
Regarding the dimensions of the dummy round after loading and crimping, they are around 0.471 (+/- 0.001) at the mouth, again without pushing hard. Because the crimp appears to be applied right on the edge of the mouth, it was hard to measure accurately for an exact diameter on the crimp itself.
As for the crimp applied, the Lee Factory Crimp Die instructions tell you to turn it down until it touches the case, then apply about a half turn to apply a 'light crimp,’ which is what I used as a starting point for the test rounds. As soon as I get more time I'll try another batch of test rounds using a 3/4 turn on the crimp knob and see if it affect setback.
I appreciate all the advice and inputs from everyone, thanks again!
Go for a 3/4 turn on the FCD. You can "feel" when it it is crimping.
Blue68f100
Member
I have always used a 0.469"-0.470" taper crimp on all my 45acp loads. This has proven it self over 1000's of rounds and different bullets.
On a 45acp you have to be careful adding too much crimp because you will loose neck tension. The best way is to reduce the expander down to gain neck tension. On brass mfg which give you trouble sort them out and only use them for lead. Since lead bullets are over size they should work.
If your using plated bullets, these have a very soft core and will dent when they hit the feed ramp. So if your feed ramp is rough this can cause a problem. Don't do anything to the feed ramp for changing the ramp angle can cause problems. Different magazines can help depending on bullet type used.
On a 45acp you have to be careful adding too much crimp because you will loose neck tension. The best way is to reduce the expander down to gain neck tension. On brass mfg which give you trouble sort them out and only use them for lead. Since lead bullets are over size they should work.
If your using plated bullets, these have a very soft core and will dent when they hit the feed ramp. So if your feed ramp is rough this can cause a problem. Don't do anything to the feed ramp for changing the ramp angle can cause problems. Different magazines can help depending on bullet type used.
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I know I sound like a broken record bbbuuuuutttttttt.
The .469" measurement is a concern.
If you're sizing the cases down to .469" and the case walls on some of the brass are +/-.020" thick. .469 - .020" ='s .449" That means that your .449" expander is worthless. That also means that the neck tension on your bullets is terrible at best. You want 2/1000th's neck tension minimum on your bullets.
My sizing die sizes the cases to .466" to .467", that means I always use the highest # /worst case scenario. I'm getting 2/1000th's neck tension with my remington brass/.451" jacketed bullet combo before taper crimping.
Myself I'd ditch the "factory crimp die", it's being used wrong and is actually doing more harm then good.
I'd figure out why the .469" sizing and use a true taper crimp die. I've used nothing but a taper crimp die since the 90's in 10+ 1911's and several other firearms chambered in 45acp. Never had any issues with setback but I've always used cases that had neck tension to begin with.
The .469" measurement is a concern.
If you're sizing the cases down to .469" and the case walls on some of the brass are +/-.020" thick. .469 - .020" ='s .449" That means that your .449" expander is worthless. That also means that the neck tension on your bullets is terrible at best. You want 2/1000th's neck tension minimum on your bullets.
My sizing die sizes the cases to .466" to .467", that means I always use the highest # /worst case scenario. I'm getting 2/1000th's neck tension with my remington brass/.451" jacketed bullet combo before taper crimping.
Myself I'd ditch the "factory crimp die", it's being used wrong and is actually doing more harm then good.
I'd figure out why the .469" sizing and use a true taper crimp die. I've used nothing but a taper crimp die since the 90's in 10+ 1911's and several other firearms chambered in 45acp. Never had any issues with setback but I've always used cases that had neck tension to begin with.
243winxb
Member
Your post #29 & data found the problem. Great detective work.
I have to wonder if this die woulld make the RP brass more useful, safer? https://leeprecision.com/undersize-sizing-die-45-acp.html
higgite
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Please explain.
Most people that use a fcd die don't understand the directions they read. This thread is a good example of this, a lot of discussion on how to adjust the crimp. But nothing on what a fcd truly does.
The 1st words in the Lee instructions on how to use a fcd:
"A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped"
What reloaders do wrong:
They size the cases using the sizing die. The cases should be de-primed only
When seating a bullet in a sized case the bullet pushes outward/expands the case (neck tension). That pressure used to seat the bullet in the sized cases can deform the bullets, cause them to seat crooked, etc. In extreme cases you see the bullets base or bullet bulge in the case. The seated bullet in the sized case is never crimped!!!! Then that cartridge is ran thru a fcd die. That means the neck tension on the bullet is reset along with resizing the bullet. This action is what's bad about double sizing the case. The case can spring back, the bullet will not. The bullet has been sized 3 times, once when seated in the the sized case and then a 2 times when everything is re-sized by the factory crimp die. Then they use the fcd die to put a taper crimp on their reload.
Brass cases spring back, lead bullets/cores do not. This affects the neck tension of the reloads. (bullets get out of round/smaller, cases get larger with each pass/sizing)
Seating a bullet in an un-sized case ensures the bullet stays strait and doesn't deform. Cannelures are often put in the cases to stop the bullet from going too deep in the un-sized cases. This is why it's common to see cannalures in the cases of different ammo that's been loaded at the factory.. A fcd die is designed so that it sizes the case with the bullet in place marrying the two together. The case is sized down to max allowable saami dimensions along with the bullet being sized (if need be). This sizing action (hence a carbide ring in the fcd die) puts neck tension on the case/bullet bond. The fcd die puts a crimp on the case mouth aiding in the feeding of the cartridge at the same time.
This is what ed harris has to say about the fcd die and how to use it the same way factory ammo if loaded. He's talking about why a cannalure is put in a 38spl/wc case so the bullet can stay in play until it reaches the "crimping station":
Their purpose (cannalure) is to prevent a wadcutter bullet being dropped into a loose-mouthed, powder charged case, from falling below flush with the case mouth. This maintains proper position until the bulleted, charged case reaches the crimping station. The loading machine used by the ammunition factories full-length profiles the case sidewall to fit gently, but tightly against the shank of the soft-swaged, hollow-based wadcutter bullet. It uniformly, but lightly crimps the case mouth to remove any flare, imparting only a slight radius at the case mouth to ease loading into the chambers. Its design intent is to avoid at all cost any damage to the fragile, soft- lead bullet, which would impair accuracy. THIS is the principle of the Lee Factory Crimp Die and is why you should buy the Lee carbide die set to the exclusion of all others.
Lee says the fcd die can be used as a "fail save tool" to catch bad rounds.
Don’t expect the carbide sizer to touch every case. It is a fail safe tool for the occasional bad round that could ruin your day.
At the end of the day a fcd die should be used to:
Load cartridges the same way factory ammo is loaded (Just a guess but I kinda got an idea this is why it's called a Factory crimp die)
Or it can be used as a "Fail safe" tool to check the reloads that have been created using the standard case sizing/expanding/seating/crimping ritual most reloaders (99.999%) are doing.
Anyway a fcd die was never designed or intended to be used as a stand alone taper crimping/roll crimping die. That is what they make taper crimp dies for. The fcd die was designed to allow the reloader to make reloads/ammo/cartridges the same way the factory does. Or to be used as "fail safe" tool that is not expected to come into contact with every case/reload.
higgite
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Thanks for the seminar on the Lee FCD, but I already know how they work. I have one. My request was for an explanation of how exactly is the OP using his FCD wrong and doing more harm than good.
Jim Watson
Member
I have been much troubled by bullet setback with 200 gr plated .45s in mixed ACP brass.
For loaded ammo on hand, I have blocked it by canneluring the case at the base of the bullet like some factory loads.
For current and future loading, I have been using an undersize sizing die to increase bullet pull.
But I am still getting feeding malfunctions even without setback, no matter the tinkering with OAL and magazine "tuning." (STI 2011 double stack.)
I have concluded the same as:
Since the offending pistol is a parts gun assembled in a defunct shop, I have no option except to seek out a fresh gunsmith.
If I can replicate the usual hangup by gymnasticating the gun at home*, I will send him pictures.
*I realized that hand cycling rounds through the gun could be a hazardous undertaking so I got a cut off firing pin out of my punch box and installed it for diagnostics. I have a card with note that I stick the functional firing pin through and place on the shelf next to the gun so I won't try to shoot it.
ETA. I could not replicate the jam by hand, will have to spend precious ammo to get him a sample. Maybe he can just look at the bullet nose tracks in the fouling on the ramps.
For loaded ammo on hand, I have blocked it by canneluring the case at the base of the bullet like some factory loads.
For current and future loading, I have been using an undersize sizing die to increase bullet pull.
But I am still getting feeding malfunctions even without setback, no matter the tinkering with OAL and magazine "tuning." (STI 2011 double stack.)
I have concluded the same as:
Since the offending pistol is a parts gun assembled in a defunct shop, I have no option except to seek out a fresh gunsmith.
If I can replicate the usual hangup by gymnasticating the gun at home*, I will send him pictures.
*I realized that hand cycling rounds through the gun could be a hazardous undertaking so I got a cut off firing pin out of my punch box and installed it for diagnostics. I have a card with note that I stick the functional firing pin through and place on the shelf next to the gun so I won't try to shoot it.
ETA. I could not replicate the jam by hand, will have to spend precious ammo to get him a sample. Maybe he can just look at the bullet nose tracks in the fouling on the ramps.
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Your welcome
You must of missed the part where the op is sizing his brass with a sizing die. Hence his .467"/.469" measurements.
If you know how a fcd works you should know not to size the cases then.
higgite
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I hope you have informed Lee of their design and marketing errors, as they advertise and sell the FCD to "post-size" the cartridge, not as a standard resizing die with a crimping feature. Unless I'm misreading you, you're suggesting the proper procedure for using an FCD is to prime and charge a fired, not-resized case, set a bullet atop the case, seat the bullet to the desired COL and then run the cartridge through the FCD to resize it from it's fired size to factory spec while at the same time applying a crimp. I'm curious how you get a bullet to not slip into a case that has been fired and not resized until it hits the FCD.
This is what lee puts in writing for their 4-die sets:
Select the Deluxe Pistol 4-die set when using mixed range brass or brass that was fired in others guns. The Deluxe set includes the Carbide Factory crimp die. This die allows you to separate bullet seating from the crimping operation. It makes setup much easier and the die has the added feature of a carbide resizer that does a finishing sizing pass on the completed round. This final sizing guarantees that any case that passes through the die will freely and reliably chamber in any gun.
For some odd reason I can't find the statement "post sizing" anywhere.
I do see however where it clearly states that the lee fcd has a carbide sizer that does the final sizing pass on the completed round.
It's interesting that people think they have to size their brass seat a bullet in that sized brass and then have to re-size the brass again with the bullet in the already sized brass.
Select the Deluxe Pistol 4-die set when using mixed range brass or brass that was fired in others guns. The Deluxe set includes the Carbide Factory crimp die. This die allows you to separate bullet seating from the crimping operation. It makes setup much easier and the die has the added feature of a carbide resizer that does a finishing sizing pass on the completed round. This final sizing guarantees that any case that passes through the die will freely and reliably chamber in any gun.
For some odd reason I can't find the statement "post sizing" anywhere.
I do see however where it clearly states that the lee fcd has a carbide sizer that does the final sizing pass on the completed round.
It's interesting that people think they have to size their brass seat a bullet in that sized brass and then have to re-size the brass again with the bullet in the already sized brass.
Final sizing seems to indicate there was an initial sizing, which appears to be how the vast majority of FCD users do it, size, expand, seat, crimp with FCD which also has a carbide ring that will size/squeeze down any fat rounds to “fix” issues and make the rounds chamber. And as you posted, assuming an in spec carbide ring and well made rounds, you should rarely feel the carbide “sizing” ring doing anything.
Jim Watson
Member
I think that "finishing sizing pass on the completed round" is equivalent to "post sizing." That is the way I use them, anyhow.
Depends on the load. In my setups; 9mm with jacketed or plated bullets, the CFC leaves a burnished mark down near the rim where the mouth radius of the sizing die did not touch. .45s don't even do that, it is hardly ever anything but a crimper.
With cast (coated) bullets of a thou larger diameter, many 9mm rounds will also show that burnished mark over the base band of the bullet where it "post sized" the whole thing. It does not show up by feel on the press handle.
But cast .45s, now; I can feel a "bumpity bump" as the "post size" insert passes over bands and lube groove, and handle effort is up for those bumps.
higgite
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Re "final sizing", that's as opposed to initial sizing.
Re "post sizing", an excerpt from Lee's website: "A carbide sizer inside the Carbide Factory Crimp die post-sizes the cartridge while it is crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability."
A link to that web page: https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die
Soonerpesek
Member
I would like to see an explanation as to how he does that also...
I would read this as the entire case is held while crimping, to help eliminate case buckling.....
BUT.......I have no experience with the FCD yet, and the only reason I have one is to bulge bust cases on the APP
Set includes:
* Carbide Factory Crimp Die
* Powder Through Expanding Die
* Bullet Seat & Feed Die
* Carbide Sizing Die
* Shellholder
* Powder measure and charge table
This is on the LEE website about the 4 die sets....NOTICE that the set includes a CARBIDE SIZING DIE ( along with the FCD ).......
That would indicate to me the LEE wants you to size the case before expanding and seating.......
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