What Constitutes an Elephant Gun?

wombat13 said:

Try 3.5" turkey loads in an 870. I used an online calculator a few years ago. Those 3.5" shells produce as much recoil as what we would all consider "elephant guns." Firing it seated at the bench (to pattern) typically results in the shooter's hat and glasses either on the ground or almost falling off as their body moves backward so quickly that inertia prevents the hat and glasses from moving that fast.

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These are reasons I don't have a 3.5" 12 gauge. The 3" is punishing enough.

Though I've long enjoyed reading the works of Elmer Keith, W.D.M. Bell, Peter Capstick and John 'Pondoro' Taylor about big game in Africa, I'll reserve my opinion on which guns deserve the elephant moniker.

Instead, if you like science fiction, here's a link to the text of L Sprague de Camp's classic short story, A Gun For Dinosaur:

https://www.baen.com/Chapters/9781625793614/9781625793614___2.htm

I was introduced to the term "elephant gun" by Burt Gummer in this scene of the movie "Tremors". Burt's elephant gun was an 8 bore double rifle, but I guess I have always considered an elephant gun to be a big bore magnum double rifle or controlled round feed bolt action. I think .400"+ bore and 4500+ ft lbs loaded with solids is a decent qualifier.

FL-NC said:

These are reasons I don't have a 3.5" 12 gauge. The 3" is punishing enough.

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There was a episode on one of those Saturday morning hunting shows, they were Turkey hunting and the guy shot the turkey when leaning up on a tree and knocked him self out cold. I've been trying to find it for years, was Surprise they left in.

someguy2800 said:

I was introduced to the term "elephant gun" by Burt Gummer in this scene of the movie "Tremors". Burt's elephant gun was an 8 bore double rifle, but I guess I have always considered an elephant gun to be a big bore magnum double rifle or controlled round feed bolt action. I think .400"+ bore and 4500+ ft lbs loaded with solids is a decent qualifier.

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It's a William and Moore smooth bore tho. It was damaged when filming, it was supposed to have more use in the movie.

troy fairweather said:

It's a William and Moore smooth bore tho. It was damaged when filming, it was supposed to have more use in the movie.

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I didn't know it was a smoothbore, thats interesting. He did shoot it a few more times later in the movie to no affect. Its one of my favorite movies, I have a snip of developed film from the original filming in my gun safe.

Not sure if it's been brought up yet but one of the most prolific elephant cullers/hunters in history, W.D.M Bell I think, used a 7x57 almost exclusively.

Some of the old guys, Greener thought an 8 bore was about right and that a smoothbore was adequately accurate for the 40 yard shot. He thought the .450 Nitro was OK, too; but you had to be sure your Nitro express is built right to stand the strain. They were still learning about containing smokeless pressures. He said if you were shooting a .303 on safari, take two because they are not as durable.

John "Pondoro" Taylor, an admitted ivory poacher, added an extra category, the medium bore in the .40s, adding that the .375 H&H performed as well as the .450-400, the previous all around rifle. He thought the .577 was best for "fighting elephants in the bush" with higher velocity and better bullet shape than the .600.

Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell was famous for killing elephants with small bores. He liked the .256 (6.5 Mannlicher) until he got a bad lot of ammo and went to the .275 Rigby aka 7mm Mauser. I saw at a gun show once, a .275 of his, with a letter to Rigby, concerned that their promotion of the High Velocity 140 grain semi-spitzer might lead them to a slower rifling twist than his standard 175 gr full patch called for. I don't think it did; both loads are listed in my 1939 catalog. He eventually went to the .318 Rigby and was heard to say late in life that the then-new .308 Winchester would be a good gun if given proper bullets.
He owned one or another big bore express rifle, but you don't hear much about it among the small bore publicity.

But, he was a good shot, knew the anatomy, and was hunting naive game that did not know to fear a white man with a rifle.
Lots of pukka sahibs tried to emulate him with less success and got stomped, gored, or clawed.

jmr40 said:

I suppose I'm "that guy".

For the record WD Bell killed over 1100 elephant in his career. His preferred cartridge was a 7X57 and he used that cartridge on the majority of them. I have no idea how that number stacks up against other cartridges. He did use other cartridges, most of them would be considered inadequate.

I've never implied that 7X57 was an adequate elephant cartridge. My point has always been that if a cartridge that small could be used to take the largest game animals on the planet that it, and similar cartridges, were more than adequate for the biggest game animals in North America. I'm sorry you missed that point.

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And to put that number into total shame, the vast majority of the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of elephants, rhinos, and all manner of Bush meat animals poached in the past century have fallen primarily to fmj 7.62x39. It certainly does not make the little Soviet round an ethical hunting choice for the big 5. I'll stick with the classic controlled feed bolt or double rifle in 9.3x62 / .375 HH or larger as the contemporary definition of an elephant gun.

I am NOT a pukka sahib, but like Will Rogers, all I know is what I read on the internet. Or in a gunzine before the home Internet was common.

Gunzine writer Layne Simpson said that any time he heard the safari story
Bubba: "Those buffalo are really tough, had to shoot that one seven times."
Simpson: "What were you shooting, a .375 H&H?"
Bubba: "Why, yes, how did you know?"

Steve S. said:

It is just about time in this thread when “that guy” types that there were more elephants killed with the 7 x 57mm Mauser than all other calibers combined - it’s coming, wait for it.

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Based on the poachers I’d wager that 7.62x39 is actually the frontrunner, unfortunately.

To me, an "elephant gun" is a rifle powerful enough to stop a charging elephant. Killing and stopping a charge are two entirely different situations.

Any magnum rifle cartridge that starts with a 4 definitely has my attention.

If you want to include poachers, you should count every military rifle ever made AND the wire snare.

I am sure there were a number of elephants attempted with .577-450 Martinis and .303 Enfields by off duty English officers in colonial Africa. Probably some with 8mms in German colonies. A 215 gr .303 or 226 gr 8mm FMJ is probably not significantly different from a 175 gr 7mm or 250 gr .318 when it comes to elephant heads.

Mosin Bubba said:

Any magnum rifle cartridge that starts with a 4 definitely has my attention.

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My buddy's 416 Remington Magnum sure enough got my attention the first time I fired it!

.455_Hunter said:

Big bore (.400 and up) on a "Magnum" performance level (>4000 fpe). Minimum would probably be the .450/.400 Nitro.

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This is the correct answer from a regulatory perspective (although I believe one of the 9.3s are allowed in some jurisdictions as a hold over from the German colonial era?).

And while that defines the cartridge/energy requirements, there are other attributes to an elephant gun that a PH would likely require.

Since only a relative handful of people actually legally shoot elephants annually, many people are unaware just how dangerous it actually is and the attributes required of a proper elephant gun. First, most PH will want their clients taking the shot at what we consider absurdly close range: definitely under 50 yards, and generally 25-30 yards. At that range, fine accuracy is not a priority. So, quite open leaf sites, essentially tuned to the intended ammo with a 25 yard zero are the norm. While ammo test barrels are often 24”-26” long, actual rifles in the field tend to be 20”-22”. And, given the cartridges used, 375 H&H may be legal but most rifles used will be chambered in 40 - 50 cal., elephant rifles want to weigh quite a bit, generally 11 lbs +. Finally, shooting an elephant at 25 yards places a premium on reliability. The double rifle offers this as a primary characteristic. Otherwise, one is usually looking at some kind of magnum length Mauser derived receiver and an in-line magazine. Hemingway accurately described a proper elephant gun as “the graceless tool of the professional” with good reason.

Steve S. said:

It is just about time in this thread when “that guy” types that there were more elephants killed with the 7 x 57mm Mauser than all other calibers combined - it’s coming, wait for it.

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Are referring to Walter Kokomojo something Bell?

Maybe he includes the Boers.

Both caliber and bullet weight should be 3-digits long
The first should start with a '4' and the second with a '5'

Velocity should be 4-digits long, and start with a '2'

One YOU HAVE killed an elephant with.

It's whatever this guy is carrying...

458 Lott??

Steve S. said:

It is just about time in this thread when “that guy” types that there were more elephants killed with the 7 x 57mm Mauser than all other calibers combined - it’s coming, wait for it.

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I thought that was the .22 LR? No, wait, was it the 30-30? Or the…

Stay safe..

In Africa the famous Mojo Bell supposedly used a 7x57 mm Mauser.

Did his shot placement (temples?) quickly kill those elephants?

earlthegoat2 said:

My impression is also that the term “elephant gun” refers to black powder rifles of 8 and 4 bore.

I am not sure if this carries over to black powder cartridges or not but in modern times folks have made black powder cartridge 8 and 4 bore rifles

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This. The term elephant gun implies huge bore so the 4 bore is what is generally referenced.