Capacity? Yes, please.

CDW4ME · May 6, 2022

Drawing against the drop.
More than one armed attacker.
Attackers continue to shoot back after the shooting starts.
https://www.kktv.com/2022/05/05/war...-would-be-robbers-now-homicide-investigation/

Missing the point:
I don't work in a shop/store, so this example is not relevant.
I don't live in _____, so this example is not applicable.

Appropriate take aways:
More than one armed attacker is a possibility.
Capacity is advantageous.

Hartkopf · May 6, 2022

Appropriate take away #3: Get off the X. Probably kept a bullet out of his brain.

Did the shop owner need to draw? "Just being cool" did not look like a good option with so many attackers.

And yes the bad guys didn't just run away. They ran for cover and then continued to shoot. Having 17 rounds doesn't seem like much in this situation.

herrwalther · May 6, 2022

Looks like the suspect in the red jacket has a Glock (-type) with an extended magazine. Another has a 1911 looking firearm. Employee looks to have a single stack, smaller than duty sized firearm. In terms of total rounds, he was easily outgunned. Tactics played a bigger role than capacity in this instance.

Employee has on armor. Good. Because glass display cases offer neither cover or concealment in an event like this. He was immediately suspicious of the body language of 4 people coming in the shop at once. Robbers like to spread out to make employee defense harder. Animals in the wild do the same. A pack of wolves will surround a moose and attack. When the shooting started, the employee got low. Maybe because he was hit. Maybe because he figured getting below the counter edge was safer, no way to tell.

WrongHanded · May 6, 2022

Another valid point might be: If 4 attackers have turned tail and are fleeing, let them flee.

It's hard to see exactly what's going on, but it appears that once they get to the door, the clerk/guard stands up and begins firing. And it appears this caused the one moving to open the door to turn around and take cover as he and his friends then fire at the clerk/guard.

If it appears otherwise to someone else, I'll listen.

Iggy · May 6, 2022

Fifty years ago I Was in two serious social encounters. We both fired once.
Not once did I think to myself, “Gee, I am carrying too much spare ammo!”

Today I carry an EDC with 13 rounds and a spare magazine with 12 more.

Times have changed.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

Oh well, it's been a few days since we have had this discussion, so I guess it's time again...

Missing the point: That this example is hugely relevant to customers/citizens out conducting their daily lives, who are not providing protection services as part of employment, nor who are off-duty LE with an obligation to engage criminals.

Appropriate take away: People providing security at businesses prone to issues (ranging from uppity banks to sketchy smoke shops) may need to have a high level of threat response capability. How much is open to discussion.

Additional thoughts: When situations like the OP's start happening to Bob and Brenda Johnson while walking back to the car in the Applebee's parking lot, I will reassess. And no, getting robbed or car jacked is not the same as a driven, focused attack by multiple armed perps who press the engagement even after being fired upon.

DT Guy · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
Oh well, it's been a few days since we have had this discussion, so I guess it's time again...

Missing the point: That this example is hugely relevant to customers/citizens out conducting their daily lives, who are not providing protection services as part of employment, nor who are off-duty LE with an obligation to engage criminals.

Appropriate take away: People providing security at businesses prone to issues (ranging from uppity banks to sketchy smoke shops) may need to have a high level of threat response capability. How much is open to discussion.

Additional thoughts: When situations like the OP's start happening to Bob and Brenda Johnson while walking back to the car in the Applebee's parking lot, I will reassess. And no, getting robbed or car jacked is not the same as a driven, focused attack by multiple armed perps who press the engagement even after being fired upon.

You haven't seen the news reports of cars FULL of carjackers (largely in CA) stopping random folks and attacking them to get their vehicles?

I have.

https://kutv.com/news/local/multiple-agencies-involved-in-pursuit-of-alleged-carjacking-suspect

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending...t-wife-police-say/VU5XHHM24JAJNJ53Z5ZQP7BD5I/

https://www.fox29.com/news/suspecte...ng-could-be-linked-to-dozens-more-source-says

https://abc30.com/oakland-carjacking-wedding-dress-stolen-opd-woman-attacked/11711423/

Now to be fair, I'm not sure if any of the victims were named 'Johnson.'

Larry

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

DT Guy said:
You haven't seen the news reports of cars FULL of carjackers (largely in CA) stopping random folks and attacking them to get their vehicles?

I have.

https://kutv.com/news/local/multiple-agencies-involved-in-pursuit-of-alleged-carjacking-suspect

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending...t-wife-police-say/VU5XHHM24JAJNJ53Z5ZQP7BD5I/

https://www.fox29.com/news/suspecte...ng-could-be-linked-to-dozens-more-source-says

https://abc30.com/oakland-carjacking-wedding-dress-stolen-opd-woman-attacked/11711423/

Now to be fair, I'm not sure if any of the victims were named 'Johnson.'

Larry

Good job. You found some cases where there were potential multiple perps.

In any of those cases, did an armed citizen return fire and the perps continued to press the engagement?

I will wait.

Kleanbore · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
In any of those cases, did an armed citizen return fire

Were they able?

JCooperfan1911 · May 6, 2022

Seems like a job for a light automatic rifle or a burp gun.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

Kleanbore said:
Were they able?

Who knows- If they weren't able to return fire, then the capacity of their weapon is a moot point.

Show me a story like this...

Bob and Brenda Johnson were on their way home from church when they stopped at a Home Depot. As Bob was exiting his new Jeep Wagoneer, a car with four men blocked him into his space. Three armed men got out and demanded his vehicle. Bob feigned compliance until had an opportunity to draw his concealed carry weapon- a S&W Model 442. Bob shot the nearest man two times and attempted to fire on the second one but ran his gun empty. Bob was then shot and killed by the third man as he struggled to attempt a reload.

JCooperfan1911 · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
Who knows- If they weren't able to return fire, then the capacity of their weapon is a moot point.

Show me a story like this...

Bob and Brenda Johnson were on their way home from church when they stopped at a Home Depot. As Bob was exiting his new Jeep Wagoneer, a car with four men blocked him into his space. Three armed men got out and demanded his vehicle. Bob feigned compliance until had an opportunity to draw his concealed carry weapon- a S&W Model 442. Bob shot the nearest man two times and attempted to fire on the second one but ran his gun empty. Bob was then shot and killed by the third man as he struggled to attempt a reload.

Is this a true story?

I’d rather have a Colt .45 automatic and plenty of spare magazines over a J-frame in such a scenario.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

JCooperfan1911 said:
Is this a true story?

I’d rather have a Colt .45 automatic and plenty of spare magazines over a J-frame in such a scenario.

100% fictional and made-up by me a few minutes ago. What I want is somebody post a real-life equivalent that does not involve somebody defending a home/business, an off-duty LE, or a criminal hit/retribution attack. The key is that this equivalent story needs to end with the armed citizen loosing the encounter primarily due to a lack of weapon ammo capacity or caliber insufficiency.

Kleanbore · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
The key is that this equivalent story needs to end with the armed citizen loosing the encounter primarily due to a lack of weapon ammo capacity or caliber insufficiency.

Analyses of civilian use of force incidents are not customarily performed to show such information, nor are the results put into a database. There may be cases in which civilian defenders have run out of ammunition, but there is no reason to believe that we would necessarily know about them.

Were the data available, I would not rely upon them to decide what my needs might be.

Defenders are trained to shoot several times, rapidly. Attacks involving two or more perps are not uncommon. Whether the attacks will continue after the shooting starts will depend on a number of variables that we cannot know in advance. For those reasons, I am not comfortable with a maximum capacity of five shots. Six are better, and more are better still, but at some point it becomes unlikely that a lawful defender would be able to employ a total capacity before being overcome.

How many? We cannot know. I do not want to lug around 17 all day. I can see 12 as a possible upper end. But I carry fewer than that, for several reasons.

DT Guy · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
Good job. You found some cases where there were potential multiple perps.

In any of those cases, did an armed citizen return fire and the perps continued to press the engagement?

I will wait.

"My God Bob, there's five of them!!

Don't worry, Brenda; they'll flee at the first sign of resistance. I know, I read it on the internet.

But Bob, what if they don't?

Nope, 100% chance they will. No need to worry, I'll fire three rounds out of my 642 and these guys will disappear."

First Google result, by the way:

This carjacker had a shootout with the cops; there's no doubt he'd have just given up if confronted by a citizen with a derringer, however:

Larry

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

Kleanbore said:
Analyses of civilian use of force incidents are not customarily performed to show such information, nor are the results put into a database. There may be cases in which civilian defenders have run out of ammunition, but there is no reason to believe that we would necessarily know about them.

Were the data available, I would not rely upon them to decide what my needs might be.

Defenders are trained to shoot several times, rapidly. Attacks involving two or more perps are not uncommon. Whether the attacks will continue after the shooting starts will depend on a number of variables that we cannot know in advance. For those reasons, I am not comfortable with a maximum capacity of five shots. Six are better, and more are better still, but at some point it becomes unlikely that a lawful defender would be able to employ a total capacity before being overcome.

How many? We cannot know. I do not want to lug around 17 all day. I can see 12 as a possible upper end. But I carry fewer than that, for several reasons.

That's all well and good, but we are here at THR to discuss realistic defensive situations, not fantasy. Is it realistic to repudiate the everyday carry of low- capacity and/or small caliber platforms when it's difficult to document even a few specific instances where Mr. Everyday Joe and his pocket pistol failed to prevent death or grievous injury to the armed citizen (or his family)?

How about any cases of where Everyday Joe needed to execute a tactical reload and stay in the immediate fight?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Perhaps it's easier to find cases where Everyday Joe DID actually need his 17+1 rounds in the Quickie Mart parking lot and he shot to slide lock with bullets coming the other way.

Any takers?

I agree people should carry what they want to carry, but promoting a fantasy of what threats are actually faced by citizens in normal daily life seems over the top.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

DT Guy said:
"My God Bob, there's five of them!!

Don't worry, Brenda; they'll flee at the first sign of resistance. I know, I read it on the internet.

But Bob, what if they don't?

Nope, 100% chance they will. No need to worry, I'll fire three rounds out of my 642 and these guys will disappear."

Cute, but off-topic.

DT Guy said:
First Google result, by the way:

So exactly how did this citizen's choice of defensive weapon play into his demise?

Did he put rounds on target that were ineffective due to small caliber and then get shot?

Did he empty his weapon and then get shot?

No one ever said that citizen never loose armed encounters. What we are trying to find is where the citizens weapon choice directly contributed to the loss of that encounter.

Hartkopf · May 6, 2022

I don’t understand the mindset of gun forum members who argue in favor of capacity limits. I know those exact words were not used but that’s what the antis see. If it’s easy for you to carry 15 or 17 then why not? You don’t have to use them all (using zero is always the goal anyway). If all a person can carry is a 6 round 380 (or whatever caliber) because of physical problems or age, I totally understand. Arguing it’s all any civilian will ever need seems strange to me.

Kleanbore · May 6, 2022

Look: actual data are not necessary ro determine realism. We do not have to know whether Joe "needed" something or how Joe's encounter may have happened.

There are other ways to consider such things, and that Joe's case is not described does not relegate plausible outcomes to the realm of fantasy,

Shooting 17 to slide lock may well be in the extreme end of the envelope. Is 12? !o? 8? 7? Considering the extreemly large number of variables involved and the paucity of data due to the rarity of civilian use of force encounters, trying to use actual data to draw conclusions on something so important would be foolish.

That's true in a lot of things: system design, air safety, fire protection, structural analysis....

.455_Hunter said:
What we are trying to find is where the citizens weapon choice directly contributed to the lose of that encounter.

A useless exercise.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

Hartkopf said:
I don’t understand the mindset of gun forum members who argue in favor of capacity limits. I know those exact words were not used but that’s what the antis see. If it’s easy for you to carry 15 or 17 then why not? You don’t have to use them all (using zero is always the goal anyway). If all a person can carry is a 6 round 380 (or whatever caliber) because of physical problems or age, I totally understand. Arguing it’s all any civilian will ever need seems strange to me.

It is discussed because this is Strategies, Tactics, and Training portion of a firearms forum. Its discussed because this where we engage each other on realistic defensive scenarios, not imaginary ones. Its discussed because for many people, the size of a defensive weapon is critical to their ability to remain discreetly armed, especially in an NPE. However, you are free to carry whatever your heart desires.

Hartkopf · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
However, you are free to carry whatever your heart desires.

Ok but I’ll use as few rounds as possible and I won’t spray and pray. And shot placement is critical.

So if you’re carrying a 5 shot revolver and an encounter requires 3 rounds, are you good with only carrying 2 rounds? I mean hopefully the encounter is complete over at that point because 2 might not be enough. But I will admit I don’t have videos loaded up to post where 15 rounds are needed. It just seems like a person would worry more about the stakes and not the odds. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just can’t understand your mindset arguing for low capacity. Is it a data thing only? Data on humans is usually so flawed and in this case, hard to get details of rounds used or needed and how strategies changed when a person realizes he’s near empty.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

Kleanbore said:
Look: actual data are not necessary to determine realism.

Wow.

Who decides what is realistic?

Kleanbore said:
Considering the extremely large number of variables involved and the paucity of data due to the rarity of civilian use of force encounters, trying to use actual data to draw conclusions on something so important would be foolish.

Your are right. It is important to understand what is realistic and what is not based on what actually happens. Civilian use of force encounters are not a zero data set.

Kleanbore said:
That's true in a lot of things: system design, air safety, fire protection, structural analysis.

Yeah- I work in some of those direct fields, and we use applicable data as much as possible to drive conclusions.

Kleanbore said:
A useless exercise.

Interesting.

Investigating scenarios where civilian weapon performance has led to undesirable outcomes is a useless exercise for defensive study.

Jeff White · May 6, 2022

No one can predict how many rounds will be necessary for any gunfight. The best any of us can do is carry the handgun/ammo loadout that best fit's their needs and lifestyle. Obviously a plate carrier with 12 mags loaded to 28 rounds for your carbine and 4 17 round magazines for your Glock isn't going to fit most people's lifestyle.

I hate these threads because they are based on a shooting incident that will never happen again. How many rounds is enough for your gunfight? No one knows because no one can predict what your gunfight will be.

When I started in LE I was issued a S&W Model 65 and 18 rounds of duty ammo, I added a Colt Agent revolver with 6 in the cylinder and 6 in a speed strip in my shirt pocket. I never felt that I didn't have enough ammunition to handle any situation an officer on patrol might encounter. Later we were issued S&W 5906s and I had 16 in the weapon and another 30 in the two spare magazines and my Colt Agent as a BUG. The fact that I was carrying more ammunition made exactly zero difference in how I did my job. I didn't think; "I can go into a more dangerous situation because I have all of this ammo."

You base your tactics on what your capabilities are. Your capabilities include how much ammo you are carrying. Obviously if you only have 5 rounds in your snubby then YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ENGAGING IN A PROTRACTED GUNFIGHT!

I don't know why everyone defines "victory" as standing over their dead assailant(s) after prevailing over them in a shootout that makes LAPD SWAT's gunfight with the SLA look like a minor skirmish. Victory might be successfully breaking contact and escaping uninjured. How many rounds does that take?

Your fight (if you are unfortunate enough to have one thrust upon you) will be what it is and you will fight it with whatever you have on you when it comes. Victory for the private citizen is escaping the situation, it's not winning a gunfight. Real life isn't a western movie. No one says you have to stand and fight. You certainly aren't going to get any extra credit for engaging in a gunfight that you could have avoided.

If you look hard enough you can come up with an example where a hundred rounds wasn't enough. If you want to carry a hundred rounds because you think you will need them, fine, do it. If you think 5 rounds in the snubby in your pocket is enough, fine. There is no right answer to this question. No one has ever written an armed citizen SOP that includes a basic load of ammunition. No one ever will either. Everyone is different, everyone has different threats to face. What gun and how much ammunition to carry is different for everyone.

.455_Hunter · May 6, 2022

Hartkopf said:
It just seems like a person would worry more about the stakes and not the odds.

The challenge is that there far more that goes into the calculation of what to carry besides caliber and capacity.

Do you drive an economy car, a Suburban, or an F550? If a hydroplaning semi-truck hits you on the interstate, you want to be in the F550, so why would not pick it as your daily driver?

Hartkopf said:
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just can’t understand your mindset arguing for low capacity.

I am not arguing for low capacity (or any sort of legal restriction- good grief). I am just asking, in the wealth of knowledge possessed by the defensive community- all the blogs, SMEs, and recognized trainers, that there are some examples of when a civilian CCW carrier's "poor" choices in armament directly led to his/her downfall.

It doesn't even need to be enough for statically significant "data", just some real life examples that can be reviewed.

Hartkopf · May 6, 2022

.455_Hunter said:
I am not arguing for low capacity (or any sort of legal restriction- good grief). I am just asking, in the wealth of knowledge possessed by the defensive community- all the blogs, SMEs, and recognized trainers, that there are some examples of when a civilian CCW carrier's "poor" choices in armament directly led to his/her downfall.

Good grief that’s the exact argument anti gunners use when pushing for capacity limits. I mean the odds say you’ll never need a gun. But you still carry?

I drive a corvette because I can avoid anything and stop on a dime. And the chances of a roll over are WAY less than in a truck. I drive defensively with a high degree of alertness during daylight time only so I’ll never need the size and girth of a F550.

Capacity? Yes, please.

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

member

Member

member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Similar threads