I can agree with that 100% based on what I saw take place back in the 1970s @ a bank robbery scene.https://gundigest.com/article/fbi-handguns-revolvers-of-the-past/amp
And, let’s face it. The Average FBI agent is, a federal investigator. It’s even in their name. They really aren’t spooled up for vicious gunfights.
Miami SWAT would likely have had a better showing. Better training, experience and equipment.
The Agents did the best they could with what they found themselves in.
The agents were ready to find and arrest. Platt and Matix were ready to kill. Everybody.And, let’s face it. The Average FBI agent is, a federal investigator. It’s even in their name. They really aren’t spooled up for vicious gunfights.
Indeed. Just for information, one of the criminals was hit early on in the encounter. Stuck in the upper torso from armpit to armpit essentially, that first hit from a 9mm pistol was a 'non survivable wound' having destroyed the tops of both lungs. However, that hit did not stop his lethal actions.sgt127 said:Mireles ended the fracas with a .38 Special.
Most of what was to learn was ignored. Being properly prepared was ignored. Tactics were ignored. Mindset was ignored. The guns and ammo were blamed.sgt127 said:Tragic loss. Lots to learn.
Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, and load your .357 with .38s, but maybe that's what happened.
Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, using handguns at all especially when at least part of your backup team is armed with MP5s but that's exactly what happened.
They are primarily INVESTIGATORS. I'm willing to bet that most of today's FBI agents have never even performed a basic traffic stop.
As an aside, when I was in the Navy Reserve, I drilled with an ATF agent. He told me once that they referred to the FBI as "Famous But Incompetent." Yes, probably some inter-service rivalry going on, and maybe a bit harsh. But based on the behavior of the FBI in the past several years, I think there is an element of truth to that.
Oh, that absolutely happened. They called in that they were on the street behind Sunnyland, which is a shopping strip at the corner of US-1 and 112th Street. They were actually about 3/4 mile away at 82nd Avenue and 122nd Street; when backup arrived at the reported location and found nothing they had to stop and listen for distant gunfire to figure out where to go.I do remember something he said about them getting lost, but he didn't go into more detail.
I agree and sometimes a good round from a powerful service caliber no matter what that may be. It doesn’t always stop a determined criminal. Even with good shot placement nothing is a guarantee. YmmvThe Miami Dade shootout boils down to one simple thing. The FBI adopted the 10mm and, shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W for one reason. They did it to deflect from the fact that the entire debacle was due to lack of training and poor tactics; not an armament failure.
The Winchester 115gr Silvertip bullet fired by SA Dove did not penetrate deeply enough to reach and pass through Platt's heart. It stopped about an inch short. Had the bullet damaged Platt's heart, and impaired its ability to pump blood, then Platt wouldn't have remained conscious long enough to murder Grogan and Dove.The Miami Dade shootout boils down to one simple thing. The FBI adopted the 10mm and, shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W for one reason. They did it to deflect from the fact that the entire debacle was due to lack of training and poor tactics; not an armament failure.
The bullet went through the upper arm on an angle for 3-4" of penetration, exited unshored (equivalent to 2-4" of penetration) under the arm, entered the chest from the side already expanded and then penetrated 7-8" into the chest. French's book has diagrams and autopsy photographs showing all that very clearly. Equivalent penetration if the upper arm hadn't been in the way would have been 12" to 16"--well within the spec that the FBI adopted after the shootout.It's a situation where inadequate equipment (ammo) directly caused the outcome.
The bullet went through the upper arm on an angle for 3-4" of penetration, exited unshored (equivalent to 2-4" of penetration) under the arm, entered the chest from the side already expanded and then penetrated 7-8" into the chest. French's book has diagrams and autopsy photographs showing all that very clearly. Equivalent penetration if the upper arm hadn't been in the way would have been 12" to 16"--well within the spec that the FBI adopted after the shootout.
Interesting isn't it. The FBI aren't really trained gun fighters, but there's an assumption that they know what equipment is best for gun fighting.
I disagree with this. Because of this incident, this is right around the time Police departments switched over from the 38/357 to high cap polymers for sidearms and AR-15s for long guns.Most of what was to learn was ignored. Being properly prepared was ignored. Tactics were ignored. Mindset was ignored. The guns and ammo were blamed.
Yes. It is around the time police firearms were changed. Which frankly is a fad. I do support the switch from shotguns to rifles, I find shotguns to be rather sloppy in use.I disagree with this. Because of this incident, this is right around the time Police departments switched over from the 38/357 to high cap polymers for sidearms and AR-15s for long guns.
I am not sure what agency has “trained gunfighters” these days, other than perhaps Air Marshals. During the academy a FBI new agent trainee shoots roughly 4K rounds of service pistol, and perhaps 500 of carbine with a couple hundred shotgun thrown in. Not as many as I would prefer, but FAR more than what I trained with in my first police academy.