Is "six" still enough for defense?

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I was a medic in the Army and believe me, people don't get "blown back" like Hollywood movies when they are shot and will keep shooting until they realize they were shot and/or see blood ... Add influence of drugs/sleep deprivation/adrenaline/suicidal and homocidal tendencies and it won't matter that they were shot and bleeding.

These are "real world, real life" videos of actual shootings and how different people react to being shot ... some attackers don't care they are shot and will keep attacking - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455078

And some care and go "crap, I got shot" and run/fall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455090

Mental and emotional responses are powerful in influencing whether attackers stop attacking but usually being shot evokes fight or flight response that triggers release of hormones that can hyper-enhance human body functions until blood pressure drop causes body to slow down ... which is an eternity in a gun fight.

Keep in mind the mentality of attackers in 2022 as what we were taught in the 60s-70s may no longer be applicable in 2022.

This is what older generations saw growing up to think/believe 6 rounds of .357 Mag will do. And how many attackers and robbers now in their 60s and 70s are going to shoot you? Not many ;)

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And this is what current generations saw growing up to think/believe about shooting ... Yes, you can get shot and still move around and shoot back ... until you bleed out and can't move ... And this is the reality we must factor when considering how to arm ourselves against threats in 2022.

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I’ve carried a gun for nearly 10,000 days, 6 rounds has been 6 more than needed every single one of those days.

Today or tomorrow, I may need 7, or 12, or 43, who knows?

The question is what are willing to limit yourself to? And that seems to be different for nearly everyone, carry what you want and don’t worry about what other people carry or say you should carry…. Your life is the one on the line, and you are the one that has to carry every bullet.
 
Well, we have never discussed this before. Tom Givens has a good handle on this.

The limited capacity gun is basically a one or two opponent gun. It has a limited time in the fight. The economically driven criminal in the mugging situation is probably most likely but NOT guaranteed. The average does not always happen.

You have to consider the tails of the intensity of critical incidents. They are rare but happen. If you want to set a criterion level in a reasonable, easy to carry more towards the more intense end of the distribution, something like a Glock 19, extra mag is seen as a good solution.

Revolvers are fun. However, in today's world carrying something as big as a SP101 or SW19 on your belt is silly. The same size gives you a G19 or similar gun. Modern revolvers like the LCR or J frames are reasonable solutions for pocket, NPE carry. Debatable as compared to the smaller 9s and 380s but that is a reasonable technical debate.

So, if you think it will be the simple mugger gun fight, you are probably ok with a 6 shot revolver (given you can shoot). If you think it might be worse, rethink it.

These threads are usually for someone wanting to justify their favorite gun. No one changes their view. Once in awhile we get a BP carry guy who is just as adamant that a BP gun is just as good as something more modern. Sure, one opponent you can shoot them.
 
LiveLife said:
I was a medic in the Army and believe me, people don't get "blown back" like Hollywood movies when they are shot and will keep shooting until they realize they were shot and/or see blood ... Add influence of drugs/sleep deprivation/adrenaline/suicidal and homocidal tendencies and it won't matter that they were shot and bleeding.

These are "real world, real life" videos of actual shootings and how different people react to being shot ... some attackers don't care they are shot and will keep attacking - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455078

And some care and go "crap, I got shot" and run/fall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455090

Mental and emotional responses are powerful in influencing whether attackers stop attacking but usually being shot evokes fight or flight response that triggers release of hormones that can hyper-enhance human body functions until blood pressure drop causes body to slow down ... which is an eternity in a gun fight.

Keep in mind the mentality of attackers in 2022 as what we were taught in the 60s-70s may no longer be applicable in 2022.

This is what older generations saw growing up to think/believe 6 rounds of .357 Mag will do. And how many attackers and robbers now in their 60s and 70s are going to shoot you? Not many ;)

​


And this is what current generations saw growing up to think/believe about shooting ... Yes, you can get shot and still move around and shoot back ... until you bleed out and can't move ... And this is the reality we must factor when considering how to arm ourselves against threats in 2022.

​
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quite the videos. thank god i’m not a cop. as a simple, grey-haired, civilian, if i were ever in such a neighborhood and caught up in such a situation i would find cover, and defend myself if attackers come to me. i would not charge to the sound of gunfire. thus i am carrying 5-6 rounds of 38sp or 7-8 rounds of 32acp or 10 rounds of 22lr because i know these platforms well and i’m actually having one on me as a ccw. slightly off topic…a 9mm pistol caliber carbine would be upfront in my patrol car.
 
LiveLife said:
I was a medic in the Army and believe me, people don't get "blown back" like Hollywood movies when they are shot and will keep shooting until they realize they were shot and/or see blood ... Add influence of drugs/sleep deprivation/adrenaline/suicidal and homocidal tendencies and it won't matter that they were shot and bleeding.

These are "real world, real life" videos of actual shootings and how different people react to being shot ... some attackers don't care they are shot and will keep attacking - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455078
Click to expand...

Firearms put bladed weapons on the ash heap of history, but bladed weapons were extremely lethal in the right hands.

ndsZIfw.jpg


G1Okxpg.jpg

I don't care how hopped up an individual is, when they lose an arm, leg, or head, it takes all the fight out of them.

When Doug stabs one of these ballistic dummies in the torso, I see an immediate and massive drain of blood to fill the body cavity. I am sure the blood loss is faster and greater than the damage that any hand gun bullet can do.

Firearms won the distance battle for sure.
 
I carry a S&W 442 5-shot J frame most of the time. I usually have 2 reloads handy.
1. Is 5 rounds enough? I hope I never find out.
2. Will I be able to reload if 5 isn’t enough? I hope I never find out.
3. What if what I have isn’t enough? There is no “ what if”. There is what is.

In every video posted you have to ask yourself “What would I do differently with what I carry?”.
I am not a cop.
I am not a security guard.
I do not (will not) work in a convenience store or gas station.

I don’t often second guess myself in things regarding defense until I see videos like this and then I have to take “reality stock” of my life. Is 5 shots with 10 rounds worth of reloads enough? Would I even get the opportunity to reload and again, will 5 rounds be enough? No, maybe, yes, who knows?

I carry what I am comfortable with, using the logic that meets my every day life. Threats are not every day life. Actually, I have never had to shoot someone to defend myself but I am not the spry and scrapping young man I once was. I also no longer hang out in bars or associate with questionable individuals. I haven’t for decades.
I have made some good and bad choices in my life. Is carrying a J frame a bad choice?
God only knows.
 
I'm older than dirt and unless my attacker backs down immediately I'm gonna lose regardless of what type handgun, what caliber handgun or how many rounds I have available. Realistically if things are not decided in the first 60 seconds I'll lose.

My goal is simply to gain enough time to make sure they regret stealing my underwear.
 
People are getting too hung up on the hardware aspect these days. You can't capacity yourself enough into proficiency.

Carry what YOU shoot best. For every video and article showing a need for more than 6 rounds, a dozen more can be shown with glocks (or other autos) jamming after round number one. Bad grip angles, bloody sweaty grips, weak hand firing, sudden parts breakages.

If the balloon goes up Mr Murphy holds sway. Don't get lost in the weeds.

Choose a platform, practice and train in all environs. Tired weak hungry sore, get out there. If your number is called, you have bigger issues than six vs 10 20 60 rounds on tap. A fight isn't the range.

Don't worry about this stuff. Just shoot what you carry, shoot thousands of times. Find a good load that seems to do well with highest accuracy and penetration. Meat bones muscles and fluids aren't ballistic gel. Go hunting for perspective.

You can't miss fast enough, carry what you are confident with and shoot best with- weak hand, improper grip, etc. Try this stuff out.

I saw in another thread someone arguing that going against 4 armed thugs with a 10 shot pistol vs a 5 shot pistol matters. Eh...maybe. maybe you're John Wicke. Idunno.

I think a lot of this is wanting the latest and greatest, and a dangerous aspect is feeling safer because there are more rounds on tap in the mag.

You be the weapon, use what you are best with. Carry a reload whatever it is.
 
I would never poo-poo someone’s edc choice, like most of the internet does these days. It’s personal and this is America!

I carry snubs now. I don’t worry about caliber nor capacity. In my life experiences, dealings with thugs, and pass work experiences I believe situational awareness, immediate response to the threat, and not treating everything like a nail cause you have a hammer does more to keep me safe in a hostile event than any weapon can.

Lefty
 
Slamfire said:
Firearms put bladed weapons on the ash heap of history, but bladed weapons were extremely lethal in the right hands.

View attachment 1113199


View attachment 1113200

I don't care how hopped up an individual is, when they lose an arm, leg, or head, it takes all the fight out of them.

When Doug stabs one of these ballistic dummies in the torso, I see an immediate and massive drain of blood to fill the body cavity. I am sure the blood loss is faster and greater than the damage that any hand gun bullet can do.

Firearms won the distance battle for sure.
Click to expand...

Hard to conceal carry a sword compared to a pistola. The bad guy will shoot at Doug before Doug gets in range to use that thing.
 
chicharrones said:
My city. A criminal with a Glock switch and plenty of extra magazines against cops.

God help me if I'm confronted with that.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/houston-police-footage-shootout-twounded-officers
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The big questions I had from those videos regarded choices of weapons and tactics. Throughout the bodycam videos it appears that everything happened right near the limits of any reasonable handgun effectiveness. Were there no long guns available? Would a little extra time to get a long gun out of a trunk made a difference?

Perhaps not quite a question but rather observation. It seems that many total shots were fired in each direction. Where did they end up?
 
I probably imagine implications ("if you carry a revolver, you are an idiot") that are actually all in my mind. I'll try to do better with that.

Since I was growing up in the 1960's I've heard "the sky is falling" and "everything is headed straight for Hades in a handbasket" over and over, for many different reasons, but most things still seem about the same to me.

Violent crime actually peaked in 1991 or so, declined after that, and has recently risen back up to mid 1970's levels (low).

It's cool if folks want to carry high capacity pistols. I'm glad they found something they like.

But Youtube videos are just Youtube videos. Don't panic. The sky is not actually falling.
 
It's well researched that:
1. Most carriers don't train, haven't taking a class beyond a mandated CCW state class.
2. The smaller guns are harder to shoot.
3. Most carriers if trained probably haven't trained with a smaller carrier gun in somewhat realistic scenarios. Folks compete with a big ol' gun. Ever compete with a J frame, LCP or taken a class focusing on those?
4. Most folks are riding the Dunning-Kruger bus on their abilities if they haven't tested them in a serious manner.
5. Shooting a group at the square range under no pressure or a rock at the 'ranch' isn't a real test.

Do most DGUs work out for the defender, probably - does that suggest or support the thesis that a less than optimal gun and minimal training is enough - probably? Your call.
 
357smallbore said:
bangers doing a spray and pray shooting…Psycho mental people doing mass shootings.
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The problem with this is it has little – if anything – to do with the capacity of a handgun.

The “bangers doing a spray and pray shooting” is known as a drive-by, shooting from a moving vehicle – they’ll be gone before you unholster your weapon, or you’ll be dead.

In a mass shooting, the best thing to do is leave the venue to a safe location and not try to confront the shooter, which is a stupid, reckless thing to try to do.

Indeed, one isn’t going to get into a prolonged ‘gun battle’ with an attacker, one isn’t going to be crouched behind a parked car exchanging gunfire emptying a 15-round magazine and needing another – that’s just silly.

Using a handgun in self-defense will involve neutralizing the attacker with one or two rounds at very close range; indeed, one will likely be in physical contact with his attacker.

This is why a revolver with five-rounds is ideal for self-defense, where reliability is the most important factor.
 
WrongHanded said:
The better question, is why limit yourself to six, when you could have 10 or more?
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And that's something to test oneself with.

I know people aren't talking about pocket shooters in this thread, but my last trip to the range shooting my Ruger LCP Max 10+1 vs. my lowly DAO Charter Arms .32 mag 6-shot proved an embarrassing point to myself.

I went into that range session thinking the Max would be king as it certainly had the capacity advantage. I mean, that's why I bought the Max, to supplant other lower capacity pocket guns I have.

The result was that I could put 6 on target with the DAO Charter Arms effortlessly where the Max was so much harder to hit with. Effectively, the Max was a 6 shooter as well due to 5 shots going stray from the intended POA . . . repeatedly. Not off paper, just not able to stay on a scaled down head shot consistently at 10 yards.

I'm not getting rid of the Max because I think I can practice my way through the issues this gun presents to me. But only time will tell for sure.
 
My opinion only…
For at home protection no reason to limit yourself to six or a small handgun.
Concealed carry I personally would be comfortable with six. A lot of the bad guy mag dump drawn out firefight videos seem to happen between bad guys or between bad guys and police.
Now that said, I don’t think there’s any downside of carrying more ammo but you need to decide how heavy and bulky the gear you are willing to tolerate.
 
chicharrones said:
And that's something to test oneself with.

I know people aren't talking about pocket shooters in this thread, but my last trip to the range shooting my Ruger LCP Max 10+1 vs. my lowly DAO Charter Arms .32 mag 6-shot proved an embarrassing point to myself.

I went into that range session thinking the Max would be king as it certainly had the capacity advantage. I mean, that's why I bought the Max, to supplant other lower capacity pocket guns I have.

The result was that I could put 6 on target with the DAO Charter Arms effortlessly where the Max was so much harder to hit with. Effectively, the Max was a 6 shooter as well due to 5 shots going stray from the intended POA . . . repeatedly. Not off paper, just not able to stay on a scaled down head shot consistently at 10 yards.

I'm not getting rid of the Max because I think I can practice my way through the issues this gun presents to me. But only time will tell for sure.
Click to expand...

Okay. But you're comparing two different guns - one of which you are more familiar with - and then making a judgement about capacity based on how well or poorly you personally shoot each gun.

Now comparing how well you shoot one gun to another in an effort to determine which one your should carry, is certainly worthwhile. However, it's critical that whatever gun we choose to carry, we ensure we can shoot it well.

Many people, myself included, have worked hard to become as competent with higher capacity tupperware as we were with 6 shot revolvers. And we've done it because we realize the potential value in the extra onboard capacity (and other features that are not covered in the OP). But we also realized that we needed to be competent with the new handgun first.

So assuming you're willing to work hard to become competent with the firearm and reach your own minimum proficiency requirements.... would you rather have more than 6 rounds in your gun?
 
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