Capacity ? Article

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There's a balance between what "should" be carried and what will be carried.

Under perfect circumstances we would all carry a caliber that started with a 4 and ended in a 5 (or a 1 and 0 respectively) in a >14 round capacity magazine and carry a couple of spare magazines.

Except most would end up not carrying at all most of the time when we tired of the weight and the limitations of how we carried it.

Some would argue that the same load-out in a caliber that started and ended with 9 would be the alternative. 3 magazines of >13 rounds of 9mm "should" be carried. Until it too became too inconvenient and we left it at home for short trips (and then longer trips).

The forensic data is that the overwhelming majority of civilian self defense shootings involve less than our firing three rounds and that caliber plays a lesser role in stopping an attack than presenting the weapon quickly and making the first shot accurately. It isn't what we on gun and self defense forums consider intuitively obvious, but it is what real life data tells us.

So, when people discuss carry and capacity, the arguments often focus on worst case theoretical situations and on "perfect" circumstances (perfectly good and perfectly bad) instead of what they will practically do in reality in a less than perfect world. The basic reality is that a good gun carried all the time is better than a "perfect" gun carried part of the time.

I started as a "some is good, more is better, and too much is just right" P14 .45 carrier loading a +2 P14 mag with two spare standard magazines. 15+13+13 (41 rounds of Golden Saber .45ACP). I then carried an 8 round Colt LW Commander with two spares. I now carry either a Colt New Agent in 9mm with a +1 base or a customized 9mm alloy P35/High Power with a "Detective" size upper on the Belgian lower half and a 17rnd mag and one spare 15rnd magazine. I've also been known in shorts and Aloha shirt to carry a .380. It does no good to have a >17 round wonder cannon as your perfect carry gun if you won't carry it.
 
My wife would not be able to quickly and effectively execute a magazine reload under the best of circumstances let alone in a combat situation but she could definitely pull a Glock out of a holster and point it at a bad guy and pull the trigger until the bad guy stopped. She understands that much just fine. Could she train more? Should she train more? Yes and yes? Is she going to train more? No. Guns just aren't her thing. Purses and nail polish are her thing. Guns are my thing. So, if it became necessary, I just want her to be able to grab that Glock and use it and never have to worry about the magazine. And I think my wife is like a lot of wives in this regard.

This response can quickly go to areas not related to this thread. Personally I would not want my wife in that situation. She can pull the trigger till the bad guy stopped, hopefully that is once, there are quite a few things that can go wrong with an automatic from feeding issues to limp wrist. Personally I would hand her a revolver much better chance of a click no bang to pull the trigger again and get a bang, chances of that with an automatic are not as high.

There are always people out there that can't do this or that fast. Now do you think that is the average person the magazine bans are pointed at? Nope, not at all. We are "told" it is for safety, yea right. Your average sideways holding gun gang banger can change mags on par with Jerry Miculek and we all know it. And we all know things like this are just theater.

Don't mistake my comments for being for limits, very far from it. My point was intended to show just how pointless it is in trying to do what "they" are telling us they are trying to do. Most of us know what the real end game is.....most.
 
Personally I would hand her a revolver much better chance of a click no bang to pull the trigger again and get a bang, chances of that with an automatic are not as high.
That's a terrible plan. Revolvers are harder to defend your self with than a Glock, especially if you're inadequately trained. I watched my wife jam a revolver as a matter of fact. She pointed it at the ground when she ejected the empties and got unburnt powder underneath the ejector star which locked the revolver up tight and rendered it useless. That's just not going to happen with a Glock and a high cap magazine.
 
You're free to make decisions based on what happens in the battlefield. I'll make decisions based on the realities of my boring lifestyle and the boring city I live in.
Sounds like you don't even need to carry a gun actually. Why even bother? here in my city, things are not boring. They shoot men, women and children all the time all over the place. They killed some guy in his car this summer and then shot up the funeral as he was being laid to rest. Tell me I don't live in a war zone.
 
Sounds like you don't even need to carry a gun actually. Why even bother? here in my city, things are not boring. They shoot men, women and children all the time all over the place. They killed some guy in his car this summer and then shot up the funeral as he was being laid to rest. Tell me I don't live in a war zone.

When you hang out with gang bangers your chances of bad things happening go up significantly. I generally avoid gang and drug related activites.
 
When you hang out with gang bangers your chances of bad things happen go up significantly. I generally avoid gang and drug related activity.
So do I but just because you aren't looking for trouble, that doesn't mean trouble isn't looking for you and it's certainly no reason to intentionally handicap yourself in the event that it finds you. And like I said, it sounds like you don't even need a gun. You should maybe carry a rape whistle or something like that perhaps. I couldn't resist. I'm sorry.
 
As a counterpoint the Active Self Protection guy has watched thousands of civilian shootings and he says he’s never seen one where the good guy needed a reload.
This is the critical question -- how often has a citizen needed a reload in a self-defense situation?

It's easy to postulate or imagine situations where a lot of rounds are needed -- but how often does it actually happen.

That said, I carry an M1911 with an 8-round magazine plus one up the spout, plus two 10-round magazines on the belt.

I also take exception with the claim that improvements in ammunition have closed the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP. Anything that has done to improve the 9mm can also improve the .45 ACP. A .45 caliber155 to 180 grain wonder bullet at 1200 fps will outclass the best 9mm.
 
There is a lot to unpack in this discussion.

Before I say anything else I want to say that I've seen the video , I respect Mr. Ayoob's opinion on most things and I generally agree with what he's saying in the video .

Here comes the BUT,

The last 15 years of my working life I worked as a security guard. I was required to carry with me daily at work a great big Motorola brick radio( Which later became a cheap Samsung Galaxy), a small first aid kit, a flashlight, pepper spray, handcuffs, in some instances a taser and whatever the issue weapon happened to be and two reloads. In addition I always carried multi-tool and a pocket knife and my phone. Of course, I didn't have to conceal any of it and I didn't have to concern myself with NPEs.

Before I say anything else I want to be very clear that I only ever had to draw my gun at work two or three times. I never had fire shot and I most assuredly never had to reload. The majority of the time My OC spray was more of a deterrent than my gun.

I got used to carrying all that stuff so when I was off the clock even though I had to conceal it, carrying a Glock 19 and two reloads plus my pocket knife and multi-tool and OC really didn't seem like all that much. Especially since I didn't have the brick, I didn't have the big flashlight, I wasn't lugging around two phones and I didn't(occasionally) have a taser.

Here's the BUT

BUT after a while reality gets in the way

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^ there is a lot of Truth in this meme^

On October 21st of 2021 I retired. The insanity of the last couple years has changed my life dramatically. 90% of the time when I leave my home it's to go to a VA appointment or it's to go to the gym.

Before I say anything else I want to make it absolutely clear that I abide by the law and I do not carry firearms at the VA.

In both instances I'm usually wearing sweats. When I'm at the gym I'm always carrying a Glock 43 and one reload.

So I said all that to say that while I agree a Glock 19 and two reloads is great sometimes life happens and you can't.

When I'm out in the mountains I carry a glock 19 and 2 reloads. I carry the same thing when I go to church but that's twice a week. When I'm at home I have a Glock 26 with a 12 round magazine and one reload.

But most of the time when I'm out of the house it's in my VA / gym clothes and I'm bundling trips to Walmart or other necessary stops in with that.

So most of the time I've got my glock 43 and 13 Rounds and a can of OC Spray.

You do you Boo.
 
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This is the critical question -- how often has a citizen needed a reload in a self-defense situation?

It's easy to postulate or imagine situations where a lot of rounds are needed -- but how often does it actually happen.

That said, I carry an M1911 with an 8-round magazine plus one up the spout, plus two 10-round magazines on the belt.

I also take exception with the claim that improvements in ammunition have closed the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP. Anything that has done to improve the 9mm can also improve the .45 ACP. A .45 caliber155 to 180 grain wonder bullet at 1200 fps will outclass the best 9mm.
The best thing you can do to improve your chances based on ammo is, how well and easily you shoot it, and can put it where it needs to go, on demand.

The difference between 45, 9mm, 38, ect are meaningless. A similar hit with any of them will still bring about the same result. Same goes for a miss. There are no magic bullets.
 
I also take exception with the claim that improvements in ammunition have closed the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP. Anything that has done to improve the 9mm can also improve the .45 ACP. A .45 caliber155 to 180 grain wonder bullet at 1200 fps will outclass the best 9mm.
the same can be said of the .500 Smith and Wesson. But there is only so much in the way of terminal ballistics that is useful in defense against humans, and the rate of controlled fire is the offsetting factor.
 
Apparently about 300 people in the U.S. are struck by lightning each year. That seems to be much greater than the number of armed citizens who need to reload during a gunfight.

Just to be on the safe side, I'm going to worry about reloading as much as I worry about being struck my lightning.
 
Apparently about 300 people in the U.S. are struck by lightning each year. That seems to be much greater than the number of armed citizens who need to reload during a gunfight.

Just to be on the safe side, I'm going to worry about reloading as much as I worry about being struck my lightning.
Go stand outside in a thunderstorm and your chances of getting struck by lightning increase dramatically.
 
Go stand outside in a thunderstorm and your chances of getting struck by lightning increase dramatically.

If you're not in one of the following states your chances decrease dramatically .

Florida, Texas, Colorado, North Carolina, Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Missouri, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania have the most lightning deaths and injuries. Florida is considered the “lightning capital” of the country, with more than 2,000 lightning injuries over the past 50 years.

Similarly, if you're not in Chicago or Detroit or some of the other high crime locations and you're not a criminal and you don't associate with criminals the odds of your gun ever even being needed are almost zero
 
Go stand outside in a thunderstorm and your chances of getting struck by lightning increase dramatically.

I suppose I could go stand on the corner in South L.A. with an "all lives matter" sign too. Neither is a good argument for being rude to people who don't feel the need to carry dozens of rounds on their person.
 
That's a terrible plan. Revolvers are harder to defend your self with than a Glock, especially if you're inadequately trained. I watched my wife jam a revolver as a matter of fact. She pointed it at the ground when she ejected the empties and got unburnt powder underneath the ejector star which locked the revolver up tight and rendered it useless. That's just not going to happen with a Glock and a high cap magazine.
yea....right.
 
I watched the video & notice he left out one point, a lot of gang members have military training. And have brought back their training to the rest of their gang. Do you feel safe when you are up against a drugged out military trained bad guys with almost unlimited fire power with your 6 or 8 shot pistol. Yes I have seen videos of solders in Iraq shooting an M2 at a drugged out bad guy, he had to almost cut the guy in half to get him to stop shooting. So what's your pistol going to do. Most gang members that know they are out to do harm are carrying AKs & ARs now not pistols & knives like years past.
To me my carry pistol is just to keep their heads down until I can get to my rifle.
 
If you're not in one of the following states your chances decrease dramatically .
Sure. And similarly, if you happen to live in just about any large city, your chances of being murdered increase compared to the person who lives in the sleepy little country town. Of course, there are certainly more examples of people being murdered in sleepy little country towns than people being struck by lightning on calm sunny days. Continuing with the analogy, there is just no guarantee that you won't find yourself forced to walk around in a thunderstorm at some point in your life even if you have previously never experienced anything but bright sunny days.

Things can change and permanently limiting your options to protect yourself in an uncertain future just because your past has been pretty certainly uneventful is a bad plan. There should be a very good reason for such a bad plan but there isn't. There's only a bunch of specious arguments and outright prevarication which only makes me more inclined to resist the measure.

And it isn't as if we're just talking about magazine bans when we talk about magazine bans. There's a lot more that is being attached to the magazine ban, like a ban on semi-automatic rifles for example. More deceptions. Hell no to any of this.

ETA: and it's even more ridiculous when you consider that you're not only limiting YOUR ability to defend yourself in an uncertain future, you're arguing to ireevocably reduce your children's options and your grandchildren's options to deal with an uncertain future.
 
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It's easy to come up with examples where having a gun was beneficial. When asked about examples of where a civilian needed a reload, all you hear is hypotheticals and discussion about how violent crime is so much more worse today than it was back in the good old days.

The rate of violent crimes being committed fell by 49% from 1993 to 2019. Violent crime rates are lower than they were for most of the 1970's and 1980's. The biggest difference from now and then is that there is constant streaming of crazy stuff on the 24/7 news cycle that you didn't hear about 50 years ago.

It is all a big circle. In the late 1980’s-early 1990’s people got sick of crime and voted to hold people accountable. Then people forget about it and relax accountability. Now, in a dozen more years when people get fed up with crime start voting out the woke crowd, the cycle will repeat itself and violent people will be held accountable again. And thirty years after that, people then will say, “crime is down xxx% over 2030 levels, so now we need to….”

Stay safe.
 
Magazine failure or you accidentally eject your mag is another reason to carry a spare …
 
It's easy to come up with examples where having a gun was beneficial. When asked about examples of where a civilian needed a reload, all you hear is hypotheticals and discussion about how violent crime is so much more worse today than it was back in the good old days.

The rate of violent crimes being committed fell by 49% from 1993 to 2019. Violent crime rates are lower than they were for most of the 1970's and 1980's. The biggest difference from now and then is that there is constant streaming of crazy stuff on the 24/7 news cycle that you didn't hear about 50 years ago.
This is it. People used to hear rumors about things that happened one town over less than we hear about what happens in other countries. Let alone in the big cities near us.
I generally carry somewhere between 5 and 10 rounds. I generally need one. But armadillo, opossum, and skunks don't shoot back... Well I guess skunks do.
Work your skills, shooting and conversation alike. Most situations can be deescalated before they become a gunfight. Hesitation at the wrong time will kill you before lack of ammo.
 
If you have some applicable examples of EDC John Q. Citizen's use of an elevated capacity magazines capabilities, please share. And no, the story of some proprietor of a pawn/jewelry/gun store isn't what we are looking for, nor some home invasion scenario.
That guy in Indiana used ten rounds to stop the mass shooter. And, probably would have used more if it were required.

That woman in the Colorado church used 10 rounds to end a church shooting spree.

In these two cases, I believe that 10 rounds was all they had in the magazine.

Because they are not related to public EDC by John Q. Citizen. However, an incident involving an armed customer at a shop would be applicable.

And we will continue to say that they have limited relevance to the topic at hand.
And, because cherry picking the data will always get you the win, right?
 
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