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People have been EDCing revolvers and low capacity mouse/micro pistols for years. Many don't even carry a reload. I've always asked this same question whether threads like this come up: Can anyone cite an anecdotal incident where a law abiding civilian ran out of ammo in a self defense situation, and was found dead near their empty firearm? That question is ALWAYS ignored or gets deflected.

I have to agree with you on that point -- but I've already been chided for asking the question.

Does anyone know of an incident where a citizen had to reload in a defensive fight? If it has happened, the next question is how often does it happen?
 
That's not really a good reason though and, in fact, it's a very poor reason to impose such a handicap on others who have both the need and the space.
Once again, no one here is talking about imposing anything on anyone.

Those jeans are great btw. I wear a pair every day and have no problem carrying a spare magazine for my 19x in it. You hardly even notice it.
I'll bet you'd notice if you pulled the mag out and it was full of sawdust like the stuff in my pockets generally is.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm entirely in favor of folks carrying an extra magazine or two (or five or six if the situation warrants). I do it myself in certain situations. I'm just saying that at times there are legitimate reasons when carrying an extra magazine or even carrying a pistol just doesn't make sense. Threat assessment is a thing.
 
I have to agree with you on that point -- but I've already been chided for asking the question.

Does anyone know of an incident where a citizen had to reload in a defensive fight? If it has happened, the next question is how often does it happen?
This is same debate happens every week on all gun forums whether the question stems from thread discussions about caliber, revolvers, single stacks vs the new micro 9mm's, 1911s vs striker-fired polymer handguns, or whenever some police shooting comes up... It's been almost a decade of me visiting and/or being a member of dozens of firearm forums, and I've yet to see even one anecdotal.

With that said and before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't have anything against those who want to carry extra ammo and higher capacity. The arguments always arise when gun owners try telling other experienced and educated gun owners they're doing it wrong. Everyone should just carry what they want based on their perceived or conjured threat level and whatever makes them feel comfortable, and then support other fellow gun owners who are doing the same thing. IMHO.
 
So since only loonies and rampage shooters carry more than 10 rounds, I assume many of the posters here support the 10 round bans being passed in a few states lately. If I were President Biden, I would quote many here in my next speech about banning semis and high capacity magazines. They are not needed and only wanted by killers,nuts and wannabees.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I get the impression some folks would like to require the rest of us carry only double stack autoloaders.
I think that's something that often gets lost in the passion of these types of discussions. (Why folks take discussions with strangers on the internet as seriously as some seem to is a whole other topic of discussion). If you could get everyone to answer a simple yes or no (you won't get them to do that) to the question, "Do you think handgun carriers should be required to carry one specific type of handgun one specific way?", I'm quite certain that everyone here would answer a resounding "No!"
 
So since only loonies and rampage shooters carry more than 10 rounds, I assume many of the posters here support the 10 round bans being passed in a few states lately. If I were President Biden, I would quote many here in my next speech about banning semis and high capacity magazines. They are not needed and only wanted by killers,nuts and wannabees.

Please highlight those quotes you have seen, because all of them in here are discussing and critiquing the loadout common people use for everyday concealed carry, NOT what folks use for all other aspects of defense. In addition, there are no quotes stating people want to legally limit anybody else's choices. Don't fall into that weak logic trap.
 
Sufficient capacity. What is that? In order to answer, I'd have to know the specifics of each and every incident.

You know what concerns me the most? (Hint, it's not capacity or caliber.)

It's whether the first 1-2 hits are going to go where I want them to go. Accurately enough. Quickly enough. Delivered while I'm getting off the dime. Whether or not I'm using 1 or 2 hands.

Will having more rounds on tap possibly afford me the opportunity to correct any mistakes made in getting off those first 1-2 shots? Maybe. Maybe not. Kinda depends whether those first 1-2 hits are effective, and in order to hope for that, they've got to be delivered.

Multiple threats? Sure, it's been happening, especially in urban areas where gangs have been emboldened, and LE presence has been reduced (for whatever reasons). If more than 1 threat is shooting at you, though, the capacity of your favorite handgun might become a moot point. What if the threat(S) get his/their first 1-2 (3-4) hits on you first? The old saying of the Firstest with the Mostest is the Bestest may just as easily mean the criminals getting their hits in first.

Capacity is all well and good. Not nearly as high on my personal list of priorities, though. (Yes, I once had this conversation with Mas. ;)

If nothing else, it may delay having to reload as soon. Having more rounds on the body in the event of reloading being needed isn't necessarily a bad thing, but how often does the typical off-duty cop or private citizen (CCW) actually reload during the course of a shooting incident? From what's heard within the LE training industry, not as many as some folks may suspect. On-duty cops needing to reload? Sure, that's happened, and reportedly more often than for off-duty or private citizen incidents. After all, cops are continually looking for suspicious incidents/people, or being dispatched to reported or known dangerous incidents. Greater risks/odds of becoming embroiled in something when you're doing risky things every few minutes of every hour.

I find my the minimum end of my 'comfort zone', as a retired cop, to be when I carry a concealed retirement handgun that has 5-8rd capacity. 9-10 is arguably better ... but then I have to balance a slightly larger size and weight in my overall risk assessment for that day/evening.

While I could've filled my safe with all manner of pistols that used 'standard capacity' mags - using my peace officer exemption to my state's mag capacity restrictions, before I retired - the only pistol I own that came with 'high capacity/LE-Only mags' only uses 12rd mags. I carried the same capacity handguns off-duty in the days I had an active badge, as I do in retirement ... and with the exception of the 1 pistol that uses 12rd mags, I use 6-10rd mags in the rest. Come to think of it, I have a couple G27 factory + mags, from the federal ban days when Glock considered them to be 11rd mags, so they had to be marked and sold as restricted in states like mine, since the manufacturer stated they held more than 10rds. I also ended up with a G19 mag from those days, but I never carry it in my G26. The 9rd & 10rd mags are fine by me.

As most members here will probably remember, I often carry one of my J-frames, and even one of my LCP's, depending on my planned activities, areas of travel, manner of dress, and just how I may feel on any particular day. I don't denigrate anyone else (private citizen or cop, working or retired) who thinks differently, though. Their life, their experience (whatever the sum of that may be) and their call.

How well and quickly can they get those arguably critical first 1-2 hits accurately and effectively on a threat, though? ;)

If capacity is being used as a substitute for accuracy and skill? May not be the best strategy. Not my problem, though. :)
 
I don’t know what “NCE” means. Sounds fancy.

I have a buddy who flew helicopters for a living. He was shot down and chased / hunted by an individual with a semi auto rifle through the woods after he safely landed and got out of the aircraft. This lasted a couple hours, until help arrived. This was not a military event. The perpetrator was some mentally ill person. This happened in the US. All my buddy had was a small Glock pistol. He wished he had more ammo.

Never say never.
 
If all I have is a 5 shot revolver, I can extend those rounds in any given bad situation I might find myself in. If I have a couple more reloads, 15 total, I know I can do a little more if I have to and use those rounds to an extent within my perceivable limits. Its always better to have more ammo, but I'm not going to be walking around town, as a civilian, with a large personal arsenal (30 rounds +) unless I have very little skill as a shooter or I know that I'm going to be dealing with some bad stuff today( which, as a sane citizen, I never have to).
Personally, I'm not worried about the guy carrying over 30 rounds of ammo, whether its a no good wannabe gang banger or a insecure self defender who road rages and believes himself to be a peace keeper and is constantly looking for trouble makers and harrasing people that are breaking traffic laws. A 5 shot snubby is all I need to fight guys like that.
Even if I was looking for trouble, a 5 shot snubby is all I need, just in case my 10 inch knife doesn't cut it.
 
I bet this whole thread would end quickly if a pistol the size of, say, a Ruger LCP or LCR could be made to carry 30 rounds.

it’s not the principle of carrying that amount of ammo that causes debate, it’s the trade off of size vs capacity.

Or some other trade off.
 
I have not seen anyone here state that no one should be allowed to carry extra mags. I haven't even seen anyone say you shouldn't, though several insist that you must. You can carry a single shot .22 or a 10mm with 5 extra mags. What you do is your business, not mine.

The point of my earlier post was that there are "experts" who come up with these situations which could- but are extremely unlikely- to happen. Thus, my example of rouge SEALS stealing your bread sticks. New gun owners take this stuff to heart and think they MUST carry their gun and lots of extra ammo at all times- it is an all or nothing decision. After a few days of lugging around a full size auto and extra mags, they decide the answer is "nothing", when a compact semi or small J frame could have been a reasonable compromise.

I don't carry every time I leave the house (gasp!). Running to the local hardware store in the middle of the day in my rural, low crime area? Nope. Running to Cleveland or Columbus on business for the day? Yep. I have no need to venture into the high crime areas of Cleveland where I was an LEO years ago at 2AM. But if I did, then yes, I would carry my full size Sig and an extra mag or two.

My point is do not listen to the webernet experts who say you MUST carry everywhere at all times and you are not prepared unless you have a full size autoloader and 3 extra magazines. If I took everything Ayoob says to heart I would never let my family leave the house out of fear that the deer in my field are actually militant, AR carrying, armored heroin junkies in disguise.

You are responsible for your safety and only you can make the decision on how much to carry, where, and how. It is not up to the webernet expert and certainly not me. The decision should be made by you depending on your circumstances and your risk assessment, not by some "expert" who doesn't walk in your shoes and makes a living coming up with "what if" scenarios.

As for armed groups committing car jackings, it does not happen around here. (We have a shortage of military trained heavily armed and armored heroin junkies). For those who live where it does happen, help me understand something. If you are confronted by three BG's wielding guns demanding your car, how does having two extra mags help? Do the extra mags somehow help you outdraw 3 drawn guns? Do they make you super fast so you can shoot and disable all three BG's before they can shoot you? I personally am not drawing on three drawn guns, no matter how much ammo I have. I am getting out and letting them have my vehicle.
 
I have not seen anyone here state that no one should be allowed to carry extra mags. I haven't even seen anyone say you shouldn't, though several insist that you must. You can carry a single shot .22 or a 10mm with 5 extra mags. What you do is your business, not mine.

The point of my earlier post was that there are "experts" who come up with these situations which could- but are extremely unlikely- to happen. Thus, my example of rouge SEALS stealing your bread sticks. New gun owners take this stuff to heart and think they MUST carry their gun and lots of extra ammo at all times- it is an all or nothing decision. After a few days of lugging around a full size auto and extra mags, they decide the answer is "nothing", when a compact semi or small J frame could have been a reasonable compromise.

I don't carry every time I leave the house (gasp!). Running to the local hardware store in the middle of the day in my rural, low crime area? Nope. Running to Cleveland or Columbus on business for the day? Yep. I have no need to venture into the high crime areas of Cleveland where I was an LEO years ago at 2AM. But if I did, then yes, I would carry my full size Sig and an extra mag or two.

My point is do not listen to the webernet experts who say you MUST carry everywhere at all times and you are not prepared unless you have a full size autoloader and 3 extra magazines. If I took everything Ayoob says to heart I would never let my family leave the house out of fear that the deer in my field are actually militant, AR carrying, armored heroin junkies in disguise.

You are responsible for your safety and only you can make the decision on how much to carry, where, and how. It is not up to the webernet expert and certainly not me. The decision should be made by you depending on your circumstances and your risk assessment, not by some "expert" who doesn't walk in your shoes and makes a living coming up with "what if" scenarios.

As for armed groups committing car jackings, it does not happen around here. (We have a shortage of military trained heavily armed and armored heroin junkies). For those who live where it does happen, help me understand something. If you are confronted by three BG's wielding guns demanding your car, how does having two extra mags help? Do the extra mags somehow help you outdraw 3 drawn guns? Do they make you super fast so you can shoot and disable all three BG's before they can shoot you? I personally am not drawing on three drawn guns, no matter how much ammo I have. I am getting out and letting them have my vehicle.

I agree with much of your post. I think people get way to fixated on the gun as the sole tool for self-defense. I lived on the border between Cleveland and East Cleveland for several years, living in a very rundown apartment in a rough neighborhood, commuting to school on a mountain bike. At the time CCW was not an option in Ohio. I still managed to survive a multitude of interesting encounters. The gun is the great equalizer and I appreciate that but it is not the only way to survive bad areas. It is but one tool in what we hope is a very large tool box. Do not fall victim to the weakness of weapons...
 
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I bet this whole thread would end quickly if a pistol the size of, say, a Ruger LCP or LCR could be made to carry 30 rounds.

it’s not the principle of carrying that amount of ammo that causes debate, it’s the trade off of size vs capacity.

Or some other trade off.
This is an internet gun forum. No thread about this gun vs that gun ends quickly. ;)
 
Life is a matter of balance and compromise. Mas has experience and wisdom, but he is not telling us what to do. He is suggesting that we consider that threats are evolving, concealed gun designs are evolving, and we should keep these in mind. If we have the option to carry 12 rounds in the same form factor as a 6 round handgun, perhaps a change is worthy of consideration. It's fine if we don't want to change, but we should at least periodically evaluate our approach to see if it is still the best solution.
 
I agree with much of your post. I think people get way to fixated on the gun as the sole tool for self-defense. I lived on the border between Cleveland and East Cleveland for several years, living in a very rundown apartment in a rough neighborhood, commuting to school on a mountain bike. At the time CCW was not an option in Ohio. I still managed to survive a multitude of interesting encounters. The gun is the great equalizer and I appreciate that but it is not the only way to survive bad areas. It is but one tool in what we hope is a very large tool box. To not fall victim to the weakness of weapons...

Anyone who rode a bike through the 44103 for years and lived to tell of it is an expert in awareness and self defense as far as I am concerned!

You make a VERY good point. The grey matter between our ears is the best self defense tool we possess.
 
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It's whether the first 1-2 hits are going to go where I want them to go. Accurately enough. Quickly enough. Delivered while I'm getting off the dime. Whether or not I'm using 1 or 2 hands.
:)

Best statement in the entire thread.

When I took over training for my department many years ago, I immediately realized there was a lot of sprayin' and prayin' going on. I developed an exercise where I sent the officer downrange with 2 rounds to engage two targets. This forced them to concentrate on making the first hits count rather than hoping a round would eventually land in the right place if they keep hitting the happy switch. All the ammo in the world is of no value if the BG hits you with his first shot while you are relying on having 46 chances to get him back.
 
So since only loonies and rampage shooters carry more than 10 rounds, I assume many of the posters here support the 10 round bans being passed in a few states lately. If I were President Biden, I would quote many here in my next speech about banning semis and high capacity magazines. They are not needed and only wanted by killers,nuts and wannabees.
Don't put words in other people's mouths. NO ONE has expressed support for banning magazines.
 
So since only loonies and rampage shooters carry more than 10 rounds, I assume many of the posters here support the 10 round bans being passed in a few states lately. If I were President Biden, I would quote many here in my next speech about banning semis and high capacity magazines. They are not needed and only wanted by killers,nuts and wannabees.
That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've read on a forum. Discussing the merits of different weapons and accessories and when and where they are best used has nothing to do with advocating for banning them. I think every American has a responsibility to own and train with a detachable magazine fed semi or full auto rifle or carbine. That doesn't mean that I think that bolt actions should be banned.
 
The subtle nature of what I said, is this. If I were a gun banner, I would quote the 3,3,3 folks and show me a case folks to argue that the mag bans are legitimate. The gun world or some denizens of it, clearly state that higher capacity guns and mags are not needed. Thus, banning them to keep them from nuts, lunatic rampages and wannabees is defensible. Why should they exist?

That you folks don't get that your statements can be turned against you is rather sad. Here is instrument that is not needed for self-defense. It is used in rampages. There are research studies indicating the higher kill count in instances with higher cap guns and mags. Thus, the antigunners have a case to ban them, in their eyes.

You say you don't support bans. I'm sure you don't. But then you give ammunition, so to speak, and legitimacy to the position that they are not needed.

It's that simple. Remember Joe argued for double barrels and wants to ban all semis. If more is not needed and those are dangerous, how do you convince the public to support their existence. In Oregon, half the voters went for a ban. What do you say to sway them. SHOW ME A CASE WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED? 3,3,3!

That's your argument.
 
The subtle nature of what I said, is this. If I were a gun banner, I would quote the 3,3,3 folks and show me a case folks to argue that the mag bans are legitimate. The gun world or some denizens of it, clearly state that higher capacity guns and mags are not needed. Thus, banning them to keep them from nuts, lunatic rampages and wannabees is defensible. Why should they exist?

That you folks don't get that your statements can be turned against you is rather sad. Here is instrument that is not needed for self-defense. It is used in rampages. There are research studies indicating the higher kill count in instances with higher cap guns and mags. Thus, the antigunners have a case to ban them, in their eyes.

You say you don't support bans. I'm sure you don't. But then you give ammunition, so to speak, and legitimacy to the position that they are not needed.

It's that simple. Remember Joe argued for double barrels and wants to ban all semis. If more is not needed and those are dangerous, how do you convince the public to support their existence. In Oregon, half the voters went for a ban. What do you say to sway them. SHOW ME A CASE WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED? 3,3,3!

That's your argument.
No, that's YOUR interpretation. We have First Amendment rights, too you know. We can debate anything we choose, and attacking people for their positions and trying to silence them is a left-wing tactic
 
SHOW ME A CASE WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED? 3,3,3!

That's your argument.
And I would show them Pol Pot, and Hitler and Mao Zedong. One of the major problems with the "gun community" is that, for decades, they've focused on justifying ownership of certain firearms and accessories based on the need for self defense from civilians. The fact is, statistically, it's extraordinarily rare for civilians to "need" standard capacity magazines larger than about 7-10 rds or so to defend themselves from other civilians. It happens occasionally, but it's exceedingly unusual. Acknowledging that fact doesn't mean I want to ban a certain size magazine, and pretending that fact doesn't exist in some sort of odd attempt to sort of "fleece" anti freedom folks into thinking that "high" cap mags are regularly needed in defense against civilians is a fools errand. They aren't that stupid.
 
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