Gunsmith or Armorer?

Basically an armorer is a parts changer while a good gunsmith is also a machinist. And Yes that particular person should change the description in my opinion.

What type/brand of bolt action rifle do you have?

Anything based on the Remington 700 and Savage rifles are pretty easy to change barrels. You will also need GO and NOGO gauges though.

There are precious few truly full service gunsmiths around anymore.

A typical “gunsmith” these days is one who may only work on polymer pistols, ARs, and may do coating type refinishes. Maybe work on 1911s or install cartridge style triggers or spring kits.

Real gunsmiths will do anything from rebluing a screw to doing a full on custom firearm from base parts.

Granted, even a good gunsmith cannot do everything to the same level of skill. They may be able to polish up triggers and adjust extractors or do a nice bluing job but cannot make a custom stock out of a walnut log.

Even good gunsmiths contract out niceties like checkering and engraving.

It would take too much time for me to do so but it would be fun to make a list of gunsmith services from easy and basic to complicated and advanced.

For example, very easy would be to detail clean a firearm and very advanced would be to regulate the barrels of a double rifle.

My FLG related how in his first go-round, a lathe was indispensable
Bolt action rifle barrels were chambered a bit long, headspace adjustment by setting them back. A Go gauge would do but a lot were set to accept the brass on hand.
No library of reamers required.

It does seem that these days one generally needs a "specialist" even for what used to be non-specialized jobs. I have one guy for revolver work, another guy for semi-auto stuff, yet a different guy for anything requiring milling, and so on.

That may result in better quality than we used to expect from the "general practitioner" but it still is kind of frustrating for those of us just trying to farm out routine work.

As an aside, I still marvel at the fact that in my neighborhood we have several local "gunsmiths" - actual brick-and-mortar shops - who won't take on any work beyond the "advanced hobbyist" level, and who apparently make a fine living installing scopes and changing out recoil springs.

earlthegoat2 said:

There are precious few truly full service gunsmiths around anymore.

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There are very few skilled craftsmen and trades-folk of any type it seems. I was reading an article a few days ago, during the pandemic there was a big shortage of fridges due to the lack of microchips. Freakin' fridges! That's the world we live in, the toaster now has to have a computer in it. 90% of consumer goods are not designed to ever be repaired, just thrown away at the end of "service life." It can even be a difficult and expensive proposition to work on cars. The parts of a motor today could be figured out by a time traveler from 1940 for the most part, until you get to the computers. Even very skilled and well equipped shops sometimes can't service these things. Consolidation down to a handful of multinationals and the relentless drive to depress all the costs to maximize the profits has led most of them to build disposable products. And the modern culture of consumerism means that many products will be replaced long before they're worn out. Your game console or phone might last five years (a really impressive feat for a phone considering the environment it operates in and the abuse it takes daily!), but a high percentage of users will bin that perfectly-operationally bit of kit the instant a new model arrives.

It might be even worse with guns. The stats I've found seem to indicate that the percentage of the population engaged in hunting has declined steeply over the last fifty years. I think that plastic guns and cheap ARs have been a good thing overall, widening the amount of people interested in shooting and lowering bar of entry price-wise to a point where there's a decent, functional firearm to be had at virtually every price point. Of course, that probably means the market for "Fudd guns" and those who's trade is working on them is probably a shrinking pool. A monkey could be trained to do most armor-level maintenance on an AR or Glock so why waste your time and money learning to work on a small pool of guns that won't make you much money?

As a guy in my early 50s I guess I kind of straddle both worlds. I don't really have any Fudd guns (well, I guess my BHP and my old Ruger MkI might qualify) although I can certainly admire a finely figured wood stock. Years ago I realized that beautiful woodwork was wasted on me as I invariably ding up a pretty wood stock within a few trips. It's sad to see some of the old beauties of the past fall out of favor and fade away, but realistically guns are a bit like cars. Some are gearheads and obsess over old classics but most people just want to get where they're going with as much comfort as safety as they can, ideally for cheap. As much as I'd love to have an old Yenko Super Camaro my Subaru Crosstrek is a lot more practical (especially when we get three feet of snow in a day like we got last Saturday).

It is sad. We are going to lose the last of our famous revolver smiths here pretty fast. One or two Classic Colt revolver fixxers. left. The once plenty true TC Contender / Encor smiths are closing up. There is NO BODY for the classic Finish lions and other Scadinavian small bore target rifles. Larry Carter, Don Nygord, Neil Johnson target .22 pistol smiths gone. Pac-Nor has said that it might close up shop. BOWEN / REED / CLEMENTS gone or retiring. Power Custom, New England firearms. The last true OLD word gunsmith able to hand fit parts to broom handle Mausers and Lefever, Greener, Parkers brothers out at the airport in Enid, Ok ... Gone. It is truly sad.

JohnKSa said:

A gunsmith should be able to make a gun in a pinch. Repairing/modifying/making parts, shortening a barrel, modifying stocks, checkering, etc. should be well within the scope of a gunsmith's skillset. They may specialize in one model or type of gun, but they should have the ability to work on nearly any gun.

An armorer can properly maintain and perform in depth upkeep on some firearms, perhaps only one type, one brand, or maybe even only one model or range of models. An armorer can diagnose problems and either replace parts to get the gun back up and running or know when it's time to pass the gun along to a gunsmith for more involved repairs. They should be able to provide comprehensive information to the users of the guns they are trained to work with on proper user maintenance and use.

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Very true. And finding a tool and die maker is equally as difficult. We’ve lost that in America. We’ve exported or flat out eliminated an extremely important, highly technical niche.

Anchorite said:

Very true. And finding a tool and die maker is equally as difficult. We’ve lost that in America. We’ve exported or flat out eliminated an extremely important, highly technical niche.

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I ended up switching from working as a tool and die maker to industrial maintenance machinist when the company I worked for as a tool and die maker had a big layoff. It was hard to find another job as a tool and die maker. I got my ASE certification for automotive machinist while in the Army, then went through the civilian apprenticeship program for a machinist with credit for my military experience. After that I went through the apprenticeship program for tool and die makers and mill wrights. Gun smithing came along with everything else while in the Army. I worked a lot with the unit armorers to fix weapons. When I was stationed in Germany it was faster and cheaper to have me work on things versus sending stuff back to the state side depots.

Sadly I don't have access to any machine shop equipment now that I am retired. I gave up my FFL back around 2003 - 2004> I had a Type 2 Pawn Broker FFL and I was done with dealing with all the hassles associated with the pawn business.

Yep this is why I have a lathe and chamber reamers and just figured it out myself.
Rather than deal with someone else's 2 to 3 year backlog or find someone who sounds like they're probably retired and convince them to work on my stuff....

If you decide to get a lathe and et into machining, I suggest taking actual courses at a community college or tech school along with trying to apprentice with an old timer. Schools will only teach you the basics but you will learn more specific details during an apprenticeship.

I had to learn a lot of different stuff for tool and die making that just isn't taught in any machinist course. As a mill wright I also had to learn how to be an electrician which helped broaden my experiences for working as an industrial maintenance machinist.

Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

Tinker-S said:

But the sad thing is, I just need the barrel removed from the action!
No monkeying around with power tools, just a vise and basic gunsmithing wrenches! As is, I have purchased enough things to be a somewhat good armorer, so I was not willing to spend $400 bucks on more tools, but...
If/when I get settled in a more permanent location, I will take classes and dip into the lathe and things. I could make some gas money on the side as well!

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Me too, I took some 1x1.25 solid mild steel bars, drilled them to accept "power custom" receiver and barrel blocks.
As a Power custom wrench and vice protectors set will run you about $300.

Myself and others could write books on this subject and too much to post all at once. And one down side is that quality lathes are expensive new or used. And with used lathes you have to really know what you are looking at when inspecting them. The same goes for milling machines too. Scraping the ways on lathes or mills is an art form all unto itself. Scraping worn out ways gets them back to being flat so there is no wobble on carriages or tables.

In your case with your rifle, you are ahead of the game already by having Go and NOGO gauges. If you can't find anyone to do the work, then look into getting the proper tools or making the tools yourself. You can find decent vice blocks, action wrenches, and barrel wrenches without spending a lot if you shop around.

Blocks for holding round actions or barrels are easy to make. I have made them out of wood and metal. What you do is take two pieces of material and then put a thin 0.005" to 0.010" shim between them and then bore your hole to exact size. The shim allows the precise hole to be slightly oval which helps hold things. It is the same principle as scope rings.

There is a big distinction between a classical, full service gunsmith and the more common modern gunsmith. Do I think you should need a full machine shop to advertise yourself as a gunsmith? No. But you certainly do need one if you want the capability of actually building a durable, accurate firearm from nothing but bar stock.

Modern specialization of Labor has rendered the do it all one stop gunsmith essentially obsolete. It simply isn't reasonable to expect a single person or any small business to have a full machine shop, woodworking shop, injection molding equipment, 3D printing, and all manner of other specialized equipment to be able to replicate the factory quality work that is expected from a modern firearm of any type.

General Geoff said:

There is a big distinction between a classical, full service gunsmith and the more common modern gunsmith. Do I think you should need a full machine shop to advertise yourself as a gunsmith? No. But you certainly do need one if you want the capability of actually building a durable, accurate firearm from nothing but bar stock.

Modern specialization of Labor has rendered the do it all one stop gunsmith essentially obsolete. It simply isn't reasonable to expect a single person or any small business to have a full machine shop, woodworking shop, injection molding equipment, 3D printing, and all manner of other specialized equipment to be able to replicate the factory quality work that is expected from a modern firearm of any type.

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And that is a reason that guys like me are a dying breed.

Definitions of words like "gunsmith" are often subjective. I personally agree with the statement that a gunsmith is a specialized machinist, while a parts changer is really an armorer.

Just like "real deal" machinist, gunsmiths are indeed a dying breed. If you have the knowledge and skills, you can make more money and have fewer headaches working as a tool and die machinist than a gunsmith, as everyone working in the firearms industry is under attack and faces the potential of being demonized, demonetized, sued, arbitrarily prosecuted, or legislated into oblivion.

An example of how ugly it can be:
One very capable and popular pistol smith who used to do 1911 to 2011 conversions back when they first became a thing (which is serious machine shop work), got caught up in the first AWB and overnight was unable to ship finished (or nearly finished) conversions back to his customers without commiting a felony. These people had paid thousands of dollars and were obviously pissed off and his name was dragged through the mud and he was sued. My understanding is that he pretty much lost everything trying to make his customers whole. Then to add insult to injury, the ATF shifted the subjective line betwixt "gunsmithing" and "manufacturing", and went after the guy for "manufacturing" without a Type 7 FFL. The "deal" offered him to avoid prosecution was to surrender his FFL. So he lost his career to boot.

As a mechanical engineer who knows his way around the machine shop and has a decent mill and lathe, I dabble in hobby pistol smithing (only for myself) and would very much like to do it for hire on a small scale as a retirement gig. But everytime I weigh the pros and cons, the cons stack up much higher.

Give it another ten years and there may be fewer than 100 'real' gunsmiths left in the entire country. I doubt there are 500 now.

Yeah my southbend 9c needed a lot of work to make it use able.

Heck, If you do manage to find a good gunsmith it's likely gonna cost you more than the gun is worth in most cases. Cheaper to just go buy new. But, I guess that's the way it is with pretty much everything else. We've priced ourselves out of the market, too lazy to do anything or too good to get our hands dirty anyway so we just have someone else, somewhere else make everything cheap throwaway and just buy another.

Jim Watson said:

My FLG related how in his first go-round, a lathe was indispensable
Bolt action rifle barrels were chambered a bit long, headspace adjustment by setting them back. A Go gauge would do but a lot were set to accept the brass on hand.
No library of reamers required.

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I give up. FLG could mean 'finger licking good' but I doubt that is what you mean.....please, for my edification, what does it mean? Thanks in advance.

All of the above is most of the reason I bought my first lathe 50 years ago. Bought my antique milling machine 45 years ago. But I soon learned that there are no rich gunsmiths and few who are well-to-do. I was a machinist for 10 years, but programmers have mostly replaced set-up machinists.

I have never been an armorer because I have stayed away from semi-autos of every sort. I have however made trigger mechanisms, sights, threaded and chambered barrels, polished and blued guns, made stocks and made a bolt action and a break action rifle from scratch. But I don't do work for others and I'm 74. Not going to start now.

We are eliminating the need for humans.