Gunsmith or Armorer?

I don't think there is a definite line between the two. And I think there is or can be a certain amount of "traffic" between the two.

To me a Gunsmith repairs, cleans, works on, builds, ect a wide range of guns. Mostly for the public.

And to my thinking an Armorer is someone who works on, repairs, ect the guns that belong to their place of employment. Whether the Military or LE.

I consider myself an amateur gunsmith/armorer. It is easier to replace a part if you can find it. I do not and likely will not have the machinist room or funds to setup a space to make my own parts. Armorers in military and law enforcement circles are mostly just part swappers.

Sadly, that’s also often the case with “auto mechanics”. Most will not take the time or effort to find a problem, or maybe they just don’t have the actual ability. They just start changing parts, hit or miss, until the problem solves itself, and still expect you to pay for all the parts you didn’t actually need.

One of the best mechanics I ever saw was in a small town in Sweden. She diagnosed a charging problem and changed brushes in a generator without even removing the generator from the car. Here, they would just install a new generator, period, at 10X the cost.

Lots here say people who can do good work on older Colt revolvers are disappearing, what will that do to the value of those guns?

Speedo66 said:

Lots here say people who can do good work on older Colt revolvers are disappearing, what will that do to the value of those guns?

Click to expand...

While I can't answer that question directly, there are definitely fewer gunsmiths that specialize in revolvers which will hurt those with older revolvers needing work. And that goes for any old quality revolver brand. That was one area I never got into. I did simple stuff with revolvers but never delved deep into them.

12Bravo20 said:

Basically an armorer is a parts changer while a good gunsmith is also a machinist. And Yes that particular person should change the description in my opinion.

Click to expand...

An armorer isn’t even a parts changer. I would have called that guy a “Gun Plumber.”

JohnKSa said:

A gunsmith should be able to make a gun in a pinch. Repairing/modifying/making parts, shortening a barrel, modifying stocks, checkering, etc. should be well within the scope of a gunsmith's skillset. They may specialize in one model or type of gun, but they should have the ability to work on nearly any gun.

Click to expand...

That's where things get complicated in modern times.

Not unlike other consumer goods, there are orders of magnitude more makers and models than 50 or 70 years ago, and the products themselves are more complex. With guns, not so much how they work, but how they're put together, with parts being cast/molded into assemblies, other parts that are pressed or heat shrink fitted and extremely difficult to R&R without damage (sometimes impossible)

People just aren't willing to pay what it costs to do the work with the time & specialty tools involved in some types of service, so we get specialization where certain people working on certain firearms become very proficient, and are able to provide service at a lower price point by doing volume with high efficiency.

There's not much I can't do, but a whole lot of things I won't, usually because it's just too disruptive to much more profitable operations. And that's the rub; the guy who can work cheap enough to have a lot of flexibility is able to do so because his investment and overhead are low, while those with a large investment in machines & tooling also need bigger buildings to house them and can't afford to spend an entire day on a $500 job. That's why I dropped a lot of services as we transitioned into full manufacturing. It was different years and years ago when I was one guy in an oversize garage with a knee mill and 2 lathes. Now I have a 2,800 sf shop with 2 manual mills, 4 manual lathes, 3, 4 and 5 axis CNC, laser engravers, TIG welding station, etc. And 2 employees. If we don't average $1,400 GP per day, we're in the red. So I'm not going to spend 5 hours making a new hammer for an old gun by hand that pays just a couple hundred bucks when I can CNC machine 25 or 30 adapters that sell for $65/ea in the same time. It ain't a matter of capability; it's one of profitability.

I do miss making one-off parts and other interesting manual machine work, and once in awhile I'll take on a job that I shouldn't just because I need to break up the monotony. But as much as I'd love to spend my days always doing different and challenging things, there are people depending on me to make decisions that keep us profitable.

When did the use of this term "armorer" get started (in the modern context)? When I hear the word "armorer" I think of a guy in a medieval workshop, painstakingly crafting chain mail out of little rings of steel.

It seems to me that the misapplied term is a way to upgrade a rather mundane profession (repairing guns by changing parts) in the minds of the public. (And as a side effect, raising the pay of the so-called "armorers.")

AlexanderA said:

When did the use of this term "armorer" get started (in the modern context)? When I hear the word "armorer" I think of a guy in a medieval workshop, painstakingly crafting chain mail out of little rings of steel.

It seems to me that the misapplied term is a way to upgrade a rather mundane profession (repairing guns by changing parts) in the minds of the public. (And as a side effect, raising the pay of the so-called "armorers.")

Click to expand...

Part of that comes from the military since small arms repairers are called armorers. And it also comes from firearm manufacturers too. Glock and other manufacturers who have training programs for the repair of their guns also call the trained people armorers.

With the military and actory trained individuals that only work on certain brands or types of firearms, they are only trained to trouble shoot and replace parts. They do not receive any training on machining of parts or how to build firearms. And that is the difference between an armorer and a gunsmith.

Great topic. I will say this: I am a twice factory certified Colt M16/AR15, twice certified Remington 870 and twice certified Sig Sauer P320 and "Classic Line" series armorer. I have worked on guns for decades. Cut and recrowned barrels (by hand), sight removal and installation, parts replacement, part fitment (files, stones emory cloth etc.) on all manner of handguns and long guns, trouble shoot to get running, rebuilding "basket cases" etc. I'm not a gunsmith.

To me a gunsmith is first a machinist by trade - Lathes, milling machines etc. Hand fitting, filing, woodworking etc.

Part of the problem is that most modern firearms are relatively inexpensive compared to the rates that would be charged by a well-trained and properly equipped technician. Usually, it's just cheaper to buy another firearm.

Another part of the problem is that the BATF&E tend to regard firearm techs about like the old-time Revenuers regarded legal alcohol producers: someone that must be watched carefully until a case can be built or manufactured against them.

Neither of these problems would apply to a simple part-swapping armorer.

Between these two parts, there is little incentive to become a professional gunsmith.

We didn’t have “armorers” in my agency until we transitioned to Glocks. I have a feeling part of the reason they got our contract was because they would train our guys.

As it turns out, just about the only things the armorers did was to change all our triggers to the NY++, 12lb (aka NY2)..

theotherwaldo said:

Part of the problem is that most modern firearms are relatively inexpensive compared to the rates that would be charged by a well-trained and properly equipped technician. Usually, it's just cheaper to buy another firearm.

Another part of the problem is that the BATF&E tend to regard firearm techs about like the old-time Revenuers regarded legal alcohol producers: someone that must be watched carefully until a case can be built or manufactured against them.

Neither of these problems would apply to a simple part-swapping armorer.


Between these two parts, there is little incentive to become a professional gunsmith.

Click to expand...

That's another aspect I forgot to address; as soon as you start manufacturing parts - and ATF now considers threading & chambering barrels a manufacturing operation - you're supposed to be a type 07 or type 10 FFL, not an 01 or 02. The licensure isn't much more expensive, but insurance certainly can be, and also a lot of commercial leases prohibit manufacturing, especially retail properties & units. So do a lot of zoning regs, city code and HOA rules for home based guys. And ATF does check that stuff, so if your location precludes a type 07 or type 10 license, armorer type work is all you can do legally.

As a kick, I browsed the machine gun section on GB. $150k. Sure. Problem for me was I don’t have a guy that can verify the description.

I would like to thread the barrel on my 308 Savage. A simple google search didn’t bring up many people in my city. The one range that will charges $200, half the cost of the rifle itself.

All this to say, I need a gunsmith sometimes and there don’t seem to be many.

4v50 Gary said:

Correct, unless the Armourer is USMC or REME (the Brits), they are the equivalent to a gunsmith who can operate a lathe and milling machine. Most armourers including police armourers are parts swappers. The US Army classifies its armorers as machinists/welders.

Click to expand...

I don't know about now but the Army 45B Armorers definitely did not know how to run lathes or milling machines when I was in. My MOS was 44E Machinist and the armorers would have to bring stuff to me when machining was needed. I went through machinist school at Aberdeen Proving Ground in late 1991. All Marine machinists went to the same school and our classes were a mix of soldiers and marines. Half of our instructors where Army and the other half were Marines. The Air Force used the same buildings and machines for their machinist but they had their own classes and own instructors separate from the Army and Marines.

I was in a unique position while stationed in Germany, my brigade actually had me doing some depot level repairs on weapons versus having to send everything back stateside to one of the depots.

4v50 Gary said:

Correct, unless the Armourer is USMC or REME (the Brits), they are the equivalent to a gunsmith who can operate a lathe and milling machine. Most armourers including police armourers are parts swappers. The US Army classifies its armorers as machinists/welders.

Click to expand...

I know in Battalion our Gunner's Mates (GMG) were the armorer. They ran the armory and passed out ammo/arms for deployments and exercises. They swapped parts and trouble shot issues when they arose as well. I remember one of the Gunner's Mates told me once he was a "gunsmith".....I said not even close.

It’s just shifting terminology. When I was a kid “Science” was proving/disproving things using the scientific method, now it’s political opinions.

You can see what you are talking about here all the time. Search “rifle build” and you will see most are just buying a bunch of parts and assembling them. I suppose “build” sounds cooler?

Useful discussion. Regardless of what he should be called, he did have the ethics to tell you he could not do the work. Good on him. I accepted the word of a turd who claimed to have much more skill then he demonstrated when he screwed up a really nice rifle. Long story, but he shirked responsibility for sloppy work by saying I did not specify that I wanted the bolt to "run smoothly".

If most gun hobbyists (and hunters) perform lathe, drilling, or any such work on guns, you will see qualified, preferred gunsmiths become fewer, and fewer.

The DIY recommendations floating everywhere on the web are not helping gunsmiths get much of the challenging work. Sure, grips, springs, sights can often be well changed by many of us. If you can't afford gunsmith rates, please be safe! If you misuse or break tools, or damage a project, you might want to schedule some work with reputable, repair professionals.

In the guitar world, there's many techs, and occasionally you find luthiers. An independent, skilled luthier trains to learn a craft, and many build guitars. Some seem to prefer extensive repairs and restorations over scratch and/ or partial builds. In today's world, many techs are referred to as luthiers.
Tech is a title like salesman.

MachIVshooter said:

ATF now considers threading & chambering barrels a manufacturing operation - you're supposed to be a type 07 or type 10 FFL, not an 01 or 02.

Click to expand...

This is what was running through my mind as soon as I read the first post in this thread: even gun engravers and cerakoters are determined by ATF to need FFL’s, and barrel work has become “manufacturing,” so when a guy is told by the enforcing agency that they are a “manufacturer,” or a “gunsmith,” it sure seems to make sense that the guy would call themselves whatever it says on their license.

But let’s also be honest, gunsmiths all around the country which made money rebarreling Rem 700’s have lied to customers for decades about Ruger M77 receivers being too hard to drill and tap, or too hard to be blueprinted and rebarreled, simply because, in truth, they didn’t want to spend the time making or spend the money buying fixtures to hold Rugers. Hell, I got referrals to my door from gunsmiths in a dozen counties just to do bedding work for Rugers when I had my shingle out, all because those smiths, which DID offer bedding surfaces, simply didn’t want to take on the multi-step bedding jobs Rugers need to sink their pillars and mess with square actions and angled screws. And even for guys which DO lathe and mill work for gunsmithing, you can ask a majority of them to fit 1911 slides and get referred somewhere else, and don’t even think about having revolver work done beyond standard repairs and available parts replacements. Try asking the guy who threads and chambers your rifle barrels to set back a double action S&W or Ruger barrel to clean up loose B/C gap…

Varminterror said:

This is what was running through my mind as soon as I read the first post in this thread: even gun engravers and cerakoters are determined by ATF to need FFL’s, and barrel work has become “manufacturing,” so when a guy is told by the enforcing agency that they are a “manufacturer,” or a “gunsmith,” it sure seems to make sense that the guy would call themselves whatever it says on their license.

But let’s also be honest, gunsmiths all around the country which made money rebarreling Rem 700’s have lied to customers for decades about Ruger M77 receivers being too hard to drill and tap, or too hard to be blueprinted and rebarreled, simply because, in truth, they didn’t want to spend the time making or spend the money buying fixtures to hold Rugers. Hell, I got referrals to my door from gunsmiths in a dozen counties just to do bedding work for Rugers when I had my shingle out, all because those smiths, which DID offer bedding surfaces, simply didn’t want to take on the multi-step bedding jobs Rugers need to sink their pillars and mess with square actions and angled screws. And even for guys which DO lathe and mill work for gunsmithing, you can ask a majority of them to fit 1911 slides and get referred somewhere else, and don’t even think about having revolver work done beyond standard repairs and available parts replacements. Try asking the guy who threads and chambers your rifle barrels to set back a double action S&W or Ruger barrel to clean up loose B/C gap…

Click to expand...

I can understand some not wanting to work on certain types or brands if that requires purchasing more fixtures and/or tooling. Fixtures and tooling can add up quickly in price. I Know what molds and stamping dies cost to make and also to repair and that is not cheap.

As a machinist working with unit armorers, I fixed a lot of different weapons and weapon systems. I also made a few from scratch too. That being said, revolvers were not in the Army inventory so I have very little experience outside of normal/easy repairs. I don't like working on revolvers for that reason when cylinder gaps or timing needs to be adjusted or other repairs that require more expertise are needed. Yes I can machine all the parts and make the tooling/molds required to make the parts but I don't have experience building revolvers so I leave working on them to others.

My point was rather that we can’t pretend all gunsmiths have to be capable of all gunsmithing tasks for all firearms brands and models - and this isn’t anything new.

Hell, the gunsmith under whom I apprenticed had never hot blued a paid job in his entire career - he took the work in regularly, and shipped them out to another gunsmith for “bluing service.” I still would do the same, I ship out blueing and cerakote work, as it’s simply not worth my burden to equip to do it myself, and I can pass through the service costs while still profiting from the work I perform.

There might be instances where I’d criticize a gunsmith for not taking on certain work - for example, I asked a couple local smiths a few years ago to D&T a revolver top strap for me while I was traveling for my day job and didn’t have time to take it on - and two said “I don’t do revolver work.” Um, dude, it’s D&T… clamp it in the table, indicate, drill, and tap… doesn’t really matter what was the firearm model, it’s just a D&T job… so they don’t get work from me anymore on principle.

I can definitely appreciate that some local AR builder and gunwrench might not have a barrel vise and action wrench to pull a bolt gun barrel. Or maybe they misunderstood and thought the OP wanted the new barrel threaded and chambered - meaning lathe work, which they may not own and operate.

Tinker-S said:

I will have the damn action in my safe collecting dust!

Click to expand...

I can relate. I’ve had a CZ550 with a Rigby boltface sitting on my shelf for like 2 years, and now I have a massive Bat Machine action holding down the shelf beside it - won’t have a stock for that one for 9mos or more.

I do like having action rods and a barrel vise and blocks on hand to pull my own barrels. I like to have multiple barrels made at the same time, and a couple of my actions take shouldered prefits, so I can change my own barrels at my leisure. Doesn’t cost much to have a barrel vise around, and R700 action wrenches are cheap - most action rods are at least reasonable. I think I have 6 different action rods/wrenches currently - so yeah, maybe I have a bunch of money invested there since I have too many types of actions.