A truly criminal gun

Ok guys, so what would you say the difference is between a gun and a drill or an awl? Are you going to use a gun as you would a drill or an awl? Or do guns really serve another purpose? The only reason to place holes in things with a gun is to damage or destroy those things for the sake of damaging or destroying them. Even if you are only shooting targets - you intend to damage or destroy the targets. It's not like you're shooting the target just so that you can put a screw or nail in it, or so that you have a hole with which to hang it on a hook on your wall. Other tools are means to ends, whereas guns are ends in themselves. Not that there's anything wrong with that - guns are very useful and important for their intended purpose. I just don't understand why you guys are making them out to be something they're not.

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Like I said, there's a moral angle to it...some things don't work well having holes in them....like Deer. Now if you're putting a hole in a deer for a reason (hunting, etc) cool...but doing it just to do it is wrong.

Putting holes in targets.....OK.....putting holes in soda cans Ok (so long as it's YOUR cans and empty....wasting the nectar of the gods is bad, mmmkay)...etc.

It IS a tool, a destructive one. The only thing separating it from a real drill is the ability to control depth and linearity of the hole bored....thus why one would not use it to hang a picture.

There's no deception here, I simply don't see it as some evil device for nefarious purposes.

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These inanimate objects are called tools......saying that they are designed for killing is foolish

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Ok guys, so what would you say the difference is between a gun and a drill or an awl? Are you going to use a gun as you would a drill or an awl? Or do guns really serve another purpose?

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Back in the days before Sawsall brand recip saws it was not unheard of to shoot a hole through the floor for the purpose of installing indoor flush toilets....To this day 8 ga. shotguns are used to shoot "clinkers" out of kilns and furnace chimneys.. I'm pretty sure they use slugs though...Rifles and shotguns have been used for generations to control vermin and varmints..Of course many firearms are used legally to harvest game and fowl...Despite the impassioned plea from another member firearms have been and are still used to dispatch certain species of large fish prior to bringing them into a small craft.

All of the above were adapted or evolved from the the very first firearm....and we may never know the motive of the first gunsmith..


Just as we will never know the motive of the first person to fix a rock on the end of a stick or the first to use an edged tool to cut something..

So, as the first crude hammer evolved into my AJC brand roofing hatchet and that first shard of glass like rock evolved into my Stanley brand retractable utility knife, that arquebus or whatever it was evolved into the multitude of useful firearms available to the enthusiast today.

Even if our hero, the first gunsmith, did invent the first firearm specifically for use in a homicide, we don't know if that homicide wasn't justifiable under todays court rulings...

In summary; Guns are tools.....Tools are not criminals.....Criminals are tools that use tools criminally......


Now before anybody gets bound up over that little tidbit consider this; If some criminally minded person used my utily knife or one like it to take over an airliner and crash it into a building, killing over 3,000. Or to cut the head off of a fellow passenger on a cross country bus....

Would that make the knife criminal?

I differ from any that would blame the knife.

W44

Atom Annie

Seems to me that real assault weapons are designed by gov'ts for gov't use.

There's an awful lot of blather in this thread. I think we get it that guns are tools and they they can be used or adapted to kill, among many other things. I think we also understand that guns themselves have no intentions, though their users and makers do. I think this latter bit is all that the OP is asking about. Are there any guns that have been made, and the maker's intent was that the gun be used for a criminal purpose? Other than homemade weapons, as some have pointed out, I doubt we'll see a bona fide gun manufacturer rolling out a firearm designed exclusively for criminals. Who would want the public derision and liability, not to mention possible criminal culpability? The closest thing I can think of may be the maker of the now-defunct Tec-9. In a lawsuit about 15 years ago, I understand that this manufacturer was sued partly because it advertised that the Tec-9 had a "fingerprint proof finish." If that was true (and I don't know that it was true, and the lawsuit itself was settled) that may evince some intent that the gun was made for a criminal purpose. Reasonable minds could differ, I suppose.

To be a stickler for technical veracity, I have to say that guns are never made or designed for the purpose of killing. Nope. Not hunting rifles, not waterfowl shotguns, nor handguns. Every gun is merely designed to activate a projectile into flight. Guns are generally designed to do this accurately. The projectile is sometimes designed to kill, but not often.

Guns were developed for killing whether it be for food, protection, or military. There would not have been any other practical application to spawn their early development. Guns were very expensive at one time and only the affluent or soldiers had access to them. As the costs of producing firearms went down people found that target shooting offered much more than just to practice killing things and competitive sport of target shooting came to be.

Just because particular firearms are built with a "sporting" purpose in mind - that doesn't mean that they aren't still designed to kill.

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Uh, yeah it does. If I buy a target rifle specifically designed to punch paper, it's specifically designed to punch paper. You can't have it both ways.

I have difficulty believing that anybody is interested in shooting only because they like to accurately send small pieces of metal flying through the air at high speeds

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Haven't met many shooters, have you? Here's a few examples of entire organizations dedicated to just that sort of thing:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

http://www.ihmsa.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISSF_shooting_events

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchrest_shooting

or that they have never considered even the most remote possibility that their "sporting" firearm could be used as a weapon.

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100% irrelevant. I consider the possibility that my Toyota could beat the guy in the Ferrari next to me at the stop light, but that doesn't change that fact that his Ferrari was DESIGNED to be a sports car, and my Corolla wasn't.

Sidebar: On the tec-9; Just yesterday a criminal used one to assault an officer of the law attempting to arrest him..The criminal fired twice missing the officer and then the tec-9 jammed...The officer responded with 4 shots, killing the criminal. The tec-9 was reported stolen from VA recently. I would opine that the criminal didn't own the tec-9 with criminal intent..It is obviously not manufactured to kill police officers..

W44

kingpin008 said:

100% irrelevant. I consider the possibility that my Toyota could beat the guy in the Ferrari next to me at the stop light

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Your toyota could make that guy into a pulp once he steps out of his car, too.
Which doesn't make your Toyots a weapon.

I have difficulty believing that anybody is interested in shooting only because they like to accurately send small pieces of metal flying through the air at high speeds

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Cowboy action shooters prefer slow speeds actually, and I don't think they ever shoot metal projectiles. IIRC, their projectiles are often wood, wax, or some other soft textile. Difficult or not, do your level best to believe it; there are in fact people interested in shooting only because they like to shoot at targets. Otherwise, are you saying that shooters are only enthused by their tools from the desire to kill?

A person could kill a lot of people at a busy outdoor market with a car....one day some crazy will figure this out....and people will sadly die...but I bet no one blames the car...

The Liberator wasn't designed as a psychological crutch, nor did it have any role in target competitions, driving tacks or providing suppressive fire, It was used to steal, and so arm our civilian allies with "real" guns. But to use a Liberator, getting a gun from an enemy with real guns would to my mind have required a kill with its single shot. "No second place winner". So it was designed to kill.

but I bet no one blames the car

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I will.
Those assault cars are made for nothing but mowing down strollers!

The only guns designed to kill are the ones with a shoulder thing that goes up.

I think this famous gun was designed only for killing



but not by "criminals"

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Actually I would argue the Liberator pistol actually was a mass produced true criminal gun.
Resistance fighters are criminals and terrorists.
The act that pistol was made for was a criminal act within the countries it was intended to be used. Its very possession was a criminal act.
Its primary purpose was to shoot a LEO of the nation, who was doing their job enforcing the rules of their nation. (which may include rounding up people and putting them in camps, and performing similar arrests or detentions in accordance with the law.)


If your government surrenders and agrees to terms and conditions, and citizens then choose to disobey the law, spit upon those terms and conditions, and resist the local LEO enforcing those laws, those citizens are criminals.
If someone then mass produces the cheapest gun possible for use by civilians specifically for firing a single shot to kill such LEO in assassination, they are making a cheap gun for use by civilian criminals violating the law.

France for exampled surrendered to the Nazis. They agreed to terms and conditions rather than fight and suffer any damage to Paris. Those conditions were codified in law.
Most of the people rounded up and sent to concentration camps or killed in France were rounded up not by Nazis, but by French police and militia of Frenchmen enforcing the law. They were not Germans, they were not Nazis, and the LEO were not military forces.
Most of the police were the very same police who were employed before Vichy France. Frenchmen, whose career was as a LEO continuing their career as a LEO.
It was their occupation to the enforce the law, whatever that law was, and they were enforcing the new laws.
Therefore by definition those who would illegally possess a firearm, and assassinate LEO from behind (the intended purpose of the Liberator pistol), would be by definition criminals.

Even in Germany itself, the Nazi government was elected by democratic vote of a free people. Something to think about.

The Liberator fired a single shot of a typical caliber.
It was never intended for sports, recreation or self defense.
One could not defend themselves against your typical submachine gun armed LEO squad with a single shot .45 round from a smooth bore barrel.
It was intended for offensive criminal assassination, against LEO merely doing their job enforcing the laws of the nation.
Laws we wouldn't agree with, but still the law.

So if viewed from the context of within the nations they were dropped on, they were in fact criminal guns, intended from the start to be used by 'criminals' violating the laws of their nation.

I have difficulty believing that anybody is interested in shooting only because they like to accurately send small pieces of metal flying through the air at high speeds

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Then you need to get out more.

I know a LOT of people that have NO interest in defensive uses of firearms or of hunting.

They simply want to punch holes in paper at varying distances with .22's.

So you're saying that deep down inside they harbor a need to go kill someone?

These posts are just cracking me up...

Resistance fighters are criminals and terrorists.

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That depends on which side they are on, the one that wins or the one that loses.

Every gun is merely designed to activate a projectile into flight. Guns are generally designed to do this accurately.

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This is the "guns don't kill people, bullets kill people" argument.

How about a nagant M1895 with a silencer?

A zip gun....... >MW

guns have many uses, no smart person wants to kill another person

criminal guns

A sale i attended last year had 2 pen guns on the sale list.
22 lr cal. single shot and looked just like an ink pen.
These (guns) were pulled b4 the sale started as the auctioneer stated that he could not legaly sell them at public auction.
I guess you must need FFl to own ???
Now you may say that these weapons could be used for self protection , But IMHO they would more than likely be used for assassination?

Criminal Handgun?

bigfatdave said:

Lee Roder, The Liberator was designed as much as a statement and demoralizer as it was a weapon.

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+1 Great response