.38+p vs. 357 mag?

I'm not running my mouth, I just don't agree with your assessment of what is a "reasonable" SD shot with a pistol. Not because it can't be done, but b/c it is a very risky thing to do in a school or mall setting as you posed. Sure it can be done, but its kinda mall ninja-ish to think u will have to actually make that kind od shot in a SD scenario.

Your scenario is possible, so is winning the lotto.

Look- if you can hit a man sized target at 150' with a SD pistol, good on you. I am just stating that it is highly unlikley in a sd situation as an "average guy". There are better tools for that job and better tactics than taking that kind of shot in the scenarios you posed.

I'm done with this as I don't want to further take away from the OP.

To close, I couldn't care less if you don't take me seriously due to my opinion. A low post count dosent speak to someones experience, training, or knowledge.

See you around.

Drew

Well, I've got a bit of time-in-grade here, and I think Drew's point was valid.
The fact is a 50 yard pistol shot,for the average CCW holder, while under the stress of a life threatening situation, is not only very difficult, but fortunately, highly unlikely. Sure, it can and has happened, but so what, it is still the rare exception, as he stated. Meteors can and do come crashing through peoples roofs, but that fact can't be rationally cited as an excuse to construct a steel and kevlar re-enforced roof.
Realistically, most civilain self-defense scenarios involving a firearm take place within a few yards (if not feet) and only invlove 2-3 rounds,total, and, as he implied, it may be quite difficult to explain to the DA how you felt justified in shooting someone from 50 yards.

The 38 Special shows 75% one shot stops with the 158 gr SWCHP+P from a 4 inch barrel. The 125 gr JHP 357 Mag shows 95% from a 4 inch and the 110 gr 357 shows 90%. Take your pick. From a GP100 the 125 gr Magnum load feels like a light 38 Special to me. You can get the CorBon ammo that doesnt flash much at all. If I had to use a 38 Special Id get the Buffalo Bore 158 gr SWCHPGC in the +P version. The standard +P LHP only goes about 830 or so from a 4 inch. The Buffalo Bore should show better stopping power. BTW, the standard 38 Special Lead Round Nose or SWC only goes about 700 fps from a 4 inch.

A low post count dosent speak to someones experience, training, or knowledge.

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I agree with this statement 100%. However, the manner in which you present your opinion reflects more character than the words themselves.

As to the OP, what load for .38 did you get the jackrabbit with?

I have just started working on my .357 LSWC for defense/hunting/woods purposes. I wouldn't feel underarmed with my .38 load, but the extra wallop from velocity is going to make a difference. I could tell a little bit of the difference just from my target. At .357 velocity these bullets cut a clean crisp hole in the target. At .38 velocity it's the more typical raggedy edge poke.

I regularly have shot all my service grade handguns out to 100yds. I have spent a bit of time backpacking, and the ability to place rounds accurately at long range seemed like a good skill to develope.
In fact, I recently traded for a S&W J frame model 38 Bodyguard. The rifle club I shoot at has some 10" steel plates set up at 40yds. After having shot the little Airweight Model 38 at ranges from 10 feet to 20yds, I could not resist having a go at those steel plates. The first round hit just left of the plate, the second just right...the last three were hits. All five would have been hits on a bad guy. Not bad for a 1 7/8ths" barrel I had put less than 50rds through.
True, an SD shot at 50 yds is likely to never be needed...but if it is, better to have learned how to do it before you need it.

I suspect there is a reason the military doesn't qual folks on targets past 25 yards with a handgun. And from what I saw of my fellow military members shooting at 25 yards, I suspect a range of 15 is more realistic.

I've hit soda cans with my 22/32 kit gun with 4" barrel at 75 yards...and I've missed a lot more. Didn't mind trying since there was no downside to it. If I missed, I missed.

But self defense? There aren't many places in a school where the shots could hit 50 yards without serious risk to any nearby kids...and I believe guns are illegal for carry in schools anyways, unless you are law enforcement.

Mall shooting? What, from one end of the mall to the other? Self defense? And if you miss, what is the backstop? I don't spend much time in malls anyways, but I can't think of many mall scenarios that would make a 50 yard shot appropriate. Not with a handgun. And the only mall within 100 miles of me doesn't allow guns anyways...all the more reason to avoid it.

Parking lots? If he is 50 yards away, run. Put cars between you. If you play parking lot ninja and miss, the price might be high. And with a 5 shot Model 60, I'm not in the spray & pray mode...

As for 357 vs 38+P, a 38+P can give you 15" of penetration with good expansion. The 357 will give you a bit more penetration, but penetrating the far side doesn't help a whole lot. There is a reason the SD ammo in 357 has ballistics a lot like 38+P! Consider Buffalo Bore:

38+P = 158 grain bullet moving 1040 (2") or 1143 (3"). Their tactical 357:
158 grain bullet moving 1015 (1 7/8") or 1172 (3").

Look similar? There is a reason.

Waywatcher,
I'm sorry you don't like the manner in which I express my opinions. I speak and act with conviction.

I'll try to be more sensitive next time...

Regarding 38 vs 357 a good hit with either will do the trick. Placement trumps caliber.

Drew

I just load 38 plus P hollowpoints on mine. My house is in a subdiv , i dont want too much power to kil someone. THe .357 is way too strong im afraid it goes way over the street and enters someones bedroom window and kills a kid or parent. I be in deep **** if that happens. The .357 as much as i want it will only be loaded for hunting game or when outdoors.

38 plus P is plenty for self defense. I use SW 686 4 inch.

Drew is correct, and statistics will go along with his thoughts...

If you cant hit something close because of the recoil and inability to shoot well, how are you going to hit something at 50 yds

Revolvers are principle handler of the 357 M as a rule, but not well
In the DE it is like shooting a weak 9mm, very controlable...

I would rather be shooting the 9mm (over 38 or 357) and magazine capacity in most shooting situations to be honest Glock 17L comes to mind...They are very accurate...

Military shoots them *9mm* and at pretty good/far range if that is all you have... Don't have to worry about background as a rule in Military...
If shooting at bad folks in a city, New York comes to mind and surrounding damage is huge, at 50 yards

Regards

GP-100 in 4 inch......

It's plenty heavy and and has a decent barrel length to handle .357 Mag. It was designed to do so and does so very well. This is not a pocket revolver.

Shoot both .357's and .38's and make up your own mind based on what you have to deal with and your own perceived strengths and weaknesses of each round and how it effects your shooting.

I have a feeling you'll like a good old .357 Mag 158gr Gold Dot.

Good luck to you!

Hmmmm.....I've read on one of these Forums that the Average Gunfight is at "Under 7 yards, is 3 shots or less and is over in 15 seconds".
I'm just quoting what I've read.
I practice regularly at 25 yards, tops. But mostly at 3 yards, 5 yards, 7 yards and 10 yards, with a Ruger SP101, ,357.

On average, you will never use your carry gun.

If you want to go by statistics alone, you'll be fine without a gun ever.

If you make your practice difficult, it will improve your ability at all ranges.

It all boils down to your personal level of preparedness. If I am more serious than you, I am a "Mall Ninja" and a "Cowboy." If I am less serious about it than you, then I am a "Sheeple" and "unprepared." You make your own decision, but quoting averages doesn't mean it can't happen.

And I still stand by my intial statement, 50 yards is not very far.

Embrace the maddness!



You bought a heavy, big, 357. What 2.5 pounds, 43 oz loaded?
It's built like a tank.
158 grain bullets at 1475 fps recoil at a measly
Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps.

That same buffalobore Plus P bullet at 1040 fps recoils at
Recoil Energy of 6 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 12 fps.

That gives you a good range of recoil to decide what you shoot most accurate.

The .357 recoils more, at combat ranges also has the same effects as a flashbang grenade: huge flash, blinds the guy, huge boom deafens the attacker, and the combination stuns him. What's NOT to like about that?
I think a lot of the M&S stats are because LEO used .357 mag at close range, and, the bad guys are stunned, not due to the effectiveness of the bullet. Keep in mind that the .357 is given the same rating, 97% as a .308 rifle, and I'm REALLY not buying that one.

I have a friend that was SWAT, and, if they shoot you with a .308, it's going to be a head shot, and we know how those turn out with a .308 rifle. They don't miss, either.

My point being, the .357 is an excellent handgun round, but, due to close range, and the flashbang effect, it's given mythical properties that don't exist
as far as effectiveness as a stopping round.

That said, I picked the fastest .357 round I can shoot with any kind of accuracy at combat ranges out of my lil 357, and the heaviest. The best combination for my gun turned out to be Fioochi's 147 grain HP, at 1131 fps
out of my snub.

You made an excellent choice, in that your 4" barrel will actually get the REAL velocity that the .357 should be working at, not what I get out of a 2"
snub.

If one lives in the country, like down here in rural Georgia, a hot .357 load would be a great choice. Ditto if you are taking a trip . . . load the .357 with good ammo that can pierce a car door in the rare case when someone might shoot at you in your car.

OTOH, if you live in a town down here and the gun will be used for home defense, load .38 Special ammo that will not over-penetrate and kill some heartbroken neighbor's kid who is sleeping in their bed across the street. You'll get jail time, lose all your possessions to pay the legal fees and have your entire life ruined. The .38 Special will lessen your risk. We can NEVER "recall" a launched bullet.

BOTH rounds will give the bad guy a quick trip to the morgue if you do YOUR job with shot placement.

Umm . . . I live in a nice, quiet neighborhood . . . and all my .357s in the safe are loaded with .38 Special . . . until I head for the deer woods. If trouble comes to my door, my .38 Special in my pocket may buy me the time to grab the shotgun or the AR15.

My choice in the outskirts would be for a 10mm they are nice and the extras you have in your magazine are nice and available...I have many I can choose from, I think I'd go, with the DE in 440 Corbon thanks...But most would not spend that kind of money for what that particular item I just mentioned costs...440 is a tough barrel to come up with now, seen them sold at 1-2k...

357 is an old caliber, still ok, but limited to revolvers as a rule...If you are a revolver guy, go for it... Would not want to bad mouth it, if you can shoot it go for it... 2" LOL

They came in longer barrel length for a reason...better performance... Hunters know that and carry them in the longer barrel...Same reason I like the 10" in the DE, it is better, slight more weight and accuracy...

Funny how a rifle shooter will do quite a bit to get an extra 100' per, and a handgunner feels it is no biggie

Regards

Wow, all this from the original post?

How do they compare as a self defense round? just got my first pistol- ruger gp100 ss 4 in barrel. which round is better?

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I will chime in and say good choice on a first hand gun. I love my GP100 but, mine is a 6". Go ahead with the 38+P, if you, God forbid, have to use it, the 38+P will get the job done.

True about wandering from OP...

Back to the OP

.38+p vs. 357 mag?

Click to expand...

How do they compare as a self defense round?
... which round is better?

Click to expand...

IMO, .357 mag is a medium game round.

I own both .357 mag and .38 spl revolvers,
but feel safe with .38 spl +p in a snub-nose for SD.

In most cases, I'd use it after trying to quell
a non-firearm attack via a stick.
(See sig line)

I can do double taps with .38 spl all day.

I purchased a Model 19, .357 in a 2.5" with round butt in 1967, sure wish I still had it, but times were tough and needed a smaller one for Vice, I traded it for a Colt 38, Detective Special, several holsters and speed loaders...

I believe the Colt is worth more now than the 19... But it was a fine shooter...Very accurate, shooting wad cutters at the range, 357 was not as fast on second shot if you want good placement...Combat shooting, good sized 10 ring, it was right on for the job that needed done both in 38 or 357...

Regards

Put three boxes of Fiocchi 142 fmjtc trough my 6" 686 today.

Real thumpers. I was surprised.

# Muzzle Velocity: 1420 fps
# Muzzle Energy: 650 ft. lbs.

Very clean too.

I like the Fiocchi ammo, shot quite a bit of it in 9mm and .357 Sig...

I have also recently shot the Fiocchi 142gn FMJTC load...I tried it in both my Model 19 2.5" and my Model 686 4". I dont know if this load has an intended purpose besides the range, but after shooting it, I know what I would use if I needed to shoot through walls or car bodies...maybe even large animals.
Thanks for posting the chrono data.

I prefer the 38 special, not +p for the average situation. It's going to be hard to justify a self defense shot at 50 yds. I carry a SP101 with 357 mag only because I'm in the country, wooded area and may need to shoot thru a truck or car door. I am going to go back to a 38 pretty soon due to the weight, I've carried this heavy gun for near 10 yrs that's enough. I now stay closer to home than before and will have other guns for truck/car doors without having to carry them 24/7.