12guagecody
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How do they compare as a self defense round? just got my first pistol- ruger gp100 ss 4 in barrel. which round is better?
.38+p vs. 357 mag?
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The .357 Magnum offers more velocity which give the bullet more penetration and maybe bullet expansion. However you may not want more penetration, and you get a negative trade-off in more recoil, brighter muzzle flash ( that may result in temporary night blindness in low light situations) and muzzle blast (noise). Experiment a bit and pick whichever round best fits your situation.
Be sure to clean all of the fouling out of the chambers after shooting .38 Special's before shooting any .357 Magnums.
Be sure to clean all of the fouling out of the chambers after shooting .38 Special's before shooting any .357 Magnums.
12guagecody
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why do you need to clean the fouling? is that to avoid from having the longer case of the 357 stick in the chamber?
woodsmanlw
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Truthfully I recommend the following: http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-125-gr-Critical-Defense/ It is designed to overcome some common problems you might expect. This is what my GP100 is fed these days. Note its a 125gr bullet so its not as likely to over penetrate and even though its a hollow-point it has a polymer in the cavity to help it expand and not be plugged up with clothing. Its getting great reviews.
Arkansas Paul
Member
I'm pretty sure that's what he was talking about.
Also, the .38 special was used by many law enforcement agencies for many years. It'll do just fine as a man stopper. You ask which is better. Obviously the .357 is more powerful, but as has been mentioned, there may be times that you want to tame it down a bit. The .38 doesn't get the respect it deserves IMO.
I think the .38 is a great manstopper too. The .357 is certainly quite versatile with all the different loadings offered and would get the edge from that perspective, but in the end there is no difference with regards to the size of the hole produced (and if we were talking say the .38+P vs. the .45 the difference in diameter non-expanded or expanded is very slight) Some may refer to energy transfer arguments, but IMHO they are moot at these velocities. Practice hitting what you are shooting at with a gun that fits your hand well and you've got the battle won.
Oh...and congrats on your new Ruger, a fine revolver indeed!
Oh...and congrats on your new Ruger, a fine revolver indeed!
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oldfool
Member
for myself, I think of the difference as "use enough gun", i.e., the 357 is a mighty fine self defense round in virtually any bullet type and powder loading, but it needs "enough gun" (enough barrel) to best do what it is designed to do
too short barrels yield impressive flash-n-bang, but waste too much of the potential, while making fast accurate followups more challenging
me, I would not go full load 357 with less than 5", preferably 6"
38sp always in 2" guns, 38+P in 4" guns for me
(for that matter, 38+P suits me fine even in 6" SD guns; no weak sister, yet very very shootable, indoors or out)
acknowledged, a little more powder always yields a little more velocity, but there are ever diminishing returns out of ever shorter barrels, and shootability counts for a lot in SD; many SD situations might be expected to be indoors, diminished lighting, etc.
ultimately, you just need to try it all and find your own balance points
too short barrels yield impressive flash-n-bang, but waste too much of the potential, while making fast accurate followups more challenging
me, I would not go full load 357 with less than 5", preferably 6"
38sp always in 2" guns, 38+P in 4" guns for me
(for that matter, 38+P suits me fine even in 6" SD guns; no weak sister, yet very very shootable, indoors or out)
acknowledged, a little more powder always yields a little more velocity, but there are ever diminishing returns out of ever shorter barrels, and shootability counts for a lot in SD; many SD situations might be expected to be indoors, diminished lighting, etc.
ultimately, you just need to try it all and find your own balance points
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12guagecody
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thanks guys, those hornady critical defense rounds look really good. i'm going to try out both load types to see what suits me best. i know i'm already comfortable with regular 38 special, now i just need to try out the hotter loads
The +P load is a 38 Special. It's not a 357 Magnum. It's not half way between the 38 and the 357. It's a 38 and not a very hot one. I consider the +P 38 load to be a mild target load.
The 357 has greater velocity and power in any bullet weight and in any barrel length. Max pressure for the 38 is 21,500 and the +P is loaded to 18,000. The 357 operates at 35,000.
The 357 has greater velocity and power in any bullet weight and in any barrel length. Max pressure for the 38 is 21,500 and the +P is loaded to 18,000. The 357 operates at 35,000.
Phil In Idaho
Member
In all the reading I have done of self defense there is one thing that stands out in front. Shot Placement.
It won't matter if you have a 155mm if you can't place the shots in the kill zone.
It's not enough just to hit the target but place the shots in the center of mass.
Whatever you do practice,practice in as realistic environment as possible. Get into reloading to cut costs for practice ammo.
Well placed .38+P shot will out do .357 mag wild ones.
The other thing I don't think has been mentioned is what happens to your rounds when you miss?? Will the .357 whistle through a lot more stuff than the .38??
Remember YOU are responsible for your rounds wherever they end up.
It won't matter if you have a 155mm if you can't place the shots in the kill zone.
It's not enough just to hit the target but place the shots in the center of mass.
Whatever you do practice,practice in as realistic environment as possible. Get into reloading to cut costs for practice ammo.
Well placed .38+P shot will out do .357 mag wild ones.
The other thing I don't think has been mentioned is what happens to your rounds when you miss?? Will the .357 whistle through a lot more stuff than the .38??
Remember YOU are responsible for your rounds wherever they end up.
Harley Quinn
Member
The pressures are really high in the big performance rounds...357 is one 10mm is another...
45 acp and 38 are similar in pressure...So is the 400 Corbon and yet is is very close to 10mm in performance, great round...
The 9 mm is a very popular round, it was hotter in the machine gun +p type...
For most people the +p will be uncomfortable to shoot, but not as uncomfortable as the 357...
Shooting target many use the 38 for that in 357...Lead and shooting it is a clue...
Velocity at over 1000 does some heavy fouling in barrel...
The +P is a good choice imho faster second round shot etc...
Bullet type is important, Jim Cirillo wrote a book called Guns, Bullets and Gunfights...Good read...
The smaller 2", will not handle them well...
Regards
45 acp and 38 are similar in pressure...So is the 400 Corbon and yet is is very close to 10mm in performance, great round...
The 9 mm is a very popular round, it was hotter in the machine gun +p type...
For most people the +p will be uncomfortable to shoot, but not as uncomfortable as the 357...
Shooting target many use the 38 for that in 357...Lead and shooting it is a clue...
Velocity at over 1000 does some heavy fouling in barrel...
The +P is a good choice imho faster second round shot etc...
Bullet type is important, Jim Cirillo wrote a book called Guns, Bullets and Gunfights...Good read...
The smaller 2", will not handle them well...
Regards
TraditionalCatholic
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Last weekend, I had my Smith and Wesson Model 19 6" out on the range, and fired all three types of rounds. Federal American Eagle Lead Round Nose 158gr .38 Special, Remington UMC 125gr SJHP, and Remington UMC 125gr .357 Magnum. I loaded two of each type of round to compare. The .38 Special has a very mild recoil, and no visible muzzle flash. It's plenty quiet enough to fire without hearing protection outside a few times. I wouldn't want to do it all the time, but it certainly wasn't enough to disorient or bother me.
The .38 +P had a little bit sharper recoil, and was definitively louder, but you could probably still fire it in a self defense situation without too much difficulty.
The .357 Magnum, on the other hand, had a visible muzzle flash and a slight flash out the side of the cylinder/barrel gap. The recoil was obviously quite sharp, and follow-up shots would be difficult if necessary. Based on the muzzle energy of each, I would think a .38 +P should still be able to drop someone pretty quickly without too much difficulty, and to me, it's just not worth the extra recoil, muzzle flash, and muzzle blast of firing .357s for self defense purposes. Just my opinion. Here is the ballistics information for each of the rounds from a 4" barrel revolver:
Federal American Eagle .38 158gr: 202.694 lb/ft, 274.802 joules
Remington UMC 125gr SJHP .38 +P: 248.587 lb/ft, 336.903 joules.
Remington UMC 125gr JSP .357 Magnum: 583 lb/ft, 790.44 joules
The .38 +P had a little bit sharper recoil, and was definitively louder, but you could probably still fire it in a self defense situation without too much difficulty.
The .357 Magnum, on the other hand, had a visible muzzle flash and a slight flash out the side of the cylinder/barrel gap. The recoil was obviously quite sharp, and follow-up shots would be difficult if necessary. Based on the muzzle energy of each, I would think a .38 +P should still be able to drop someone pretty quickly without too much difficulty, and to me, it's just not worth the extra recoil, muzzle flash, and muzzle blast of firing .357s for self defense purposes. Just my opinion. Here is the ballistics information for each of the rounds from a 4" barrel revolver:
Federal American Eagle .38 158gr: 202.694 lb/ft, 274.802 joules
Remington UMC 125gr SJHP .38 +P: 248.587 lb/ft, 336.903 joules.
Remington UMC 125gr JSP .357 Magnum: 583 lb/ft, 790.44 joules
Jonah71
Member
I like the .38 spec in my Security Six over the.357. I seem to be more accurate and also get back on target faster with the .38. And I've always considered shot placement as more important than penetration. But of course there are situations and circumstances where I'd prefer the .357.
Lucky Derby
Member
I generally won't use .357 unless I have at least 3" worth of barrel. The law of diminshing returns apply. The shorter the barrel gets, the less velocity is gained and the more recoil and muzzle blast is increased.
Even whe I use .357 in 3"-4" barrels I use the Buffalo Bore Low flash tactical .357 loads. It is much easier to control.
A hit with a .38 is better than a miss with a .357
A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .454
Even whe I use .357 in 3"-4" barrels I use the Buffalo Bore Low flash tactical .357 loads. It is much easier to control.
A hit with a .38 is better than a miss with a .357
A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .454
PRM
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I have carried 38 Specials for well over 30 years as an LEO both on duty and as an off duty caliber and have always liked the round.
Never personally been a fan of the .357. My Model 60-9 is chambered for that round, but only sees 38s. Lot of recoil for a J Frame.
Shot placement is the most critical factor, and at some point you have to settle on what your comfortable with. If you feel you need a .357 ~ then go for it.
Never personally been a fan of the .357. My Model 60-9 is chambered for that round, but only sees 38s. Lot of recoil for a J Frame.
Shot placement is the most critical factor, and at some point you have to settle on what your comfortable with. If you feel you need a .357 ~ then go for it.
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Ya never know how much velocity you'll get out of a short bbl relative to what one might expect with a long bbl until you chrony that load in your particular weapon.
For instance, the Winchester Partition Gold 180gr HP makes 1100fps in the Winchester test 8" bbl.
The same load gets right around 1000fps out of my Taurus snubby. Six fewer inches of bbl and I lose only 100fps.
This is not to say that the "short bbl means less velocity" general guideline is baloney. BBL length is only one factor in muzzle velocity and those other factors (load, specific firearm tolerances, etc) play a significant role.
A chrony is a useful tool and will help make decisions like ".38spl+P vs .357mag" easier.
For instance, the Winchester Partition Gold 180gr HP makes 1100fps in the Winchester test 8" bbl.
The same load gets right around 1000fps out of my Taurus snubby. Six fewer inches of bbl and I lose only 100fps.
This is not to say that the "short bbl means less velocity" general guideline is baloney. BBL length is only one factor in muzzle velocity and those other factors (load, specific firearm tolerances, etc) play a significant role.
A chrony is a useful tool and will help make decisions like ".38spl+P vs .357mag" easier.
bsms
Member
I recommend some reading here:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special.html
For self defense against humans, you want the widest wound channel that penetrates 10-15 inches. The FBI uses 12 inches as a minimum in case the bullet has to go thru an arm first...I wouldn't reject a round for only penetrating 11 inches. Beyond 15 inches, you are probably just getting extra blast and noise.
The calibers in the 40s often expand on impact to over 0.7" in diameter, while the rounds in the 30s typically make it to around 0.6"...no one has proven the extra diameter buys you much in stopping power, but it seems plausible that it helps.
Pretty much all of the mid sized calibers (in the 30s) are capable of getting 12" penetration with good expansion in the right bullet. 38+P gets it easier than a .380, so in a .380 I'd be very picky about choice of ammo. Same with regular .38 - the right match of bullet construction and velocity will do it, but barely.
The 357 often is overkill, which is why 357 SD ammo often sounds like hot 38 ammo. Buffalo Bore says this about their 38+P:
"Item 20B/20 uses the low velocity (LV) Jacketed Hollow Point bullet that is designed to expand at as little as 800 fps, so you will get expansion out of very short barrels...Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh."
Since their ammo gets over 1000 fps from a 2" barrel, it ought to expand as reliably as anything, and 14 inches is enough.
The problem some folks have is they forget how bullet construction impacts effectiveness. You can make a bullet so hard it won't expand at all. It will give good penetration, but not as wide a hole. Or you can make a bullet that expands beautifully, but doesn't penetrate. A good manufacturer - and I think almost all the main ones are - matches the bullet construction with expected velocity.
I carry 38+P in my S&W Model 60, and rather mild 357 ammo in my 686. Since the 686 is nearly twice the weight of the 60, I can bump up to 357 without much downside - but I'm not undergunned with the 38+P.
I also like 44/45 ammo, but right now I don't shoot much because it is more expensive and I want more practice with 38/357s first. And I don't know of any real world data that shows the 44/45 is any more effective against humans than the 9mm/38/357. All just IMHO.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special.html
For self defense against humans, you want the widest wound channel that penetrates 10-15 inches. The FBI uses 12 inches as a minimum in case the bullet has to go thru an arm first...I wouldn't reject a round for only penetrating 11 inches. Beyond 15 inches, you are probably just getting extra blast and noise.
The calibers in the 40s often expand on impact to over 0.7" in diameter, while the rounds in the 30s typically make it to around 0.6"...no one has proven the extra diameter buys you much in stopping power, but it seems plausible that it helps.
Pretty much all of the mid sized calibers (in the 30s) are capable of getting 12" penetration with good expansion in the right bullet. 38+P gets it easier than a .380, so in a .380 I'd be very picky about choice of ammo. Same with regular .38 - the right match of bullet construction and velocity will do it, but barely.
The 357 often is overkill, which is why 357 SD ammo often sounds like hot 38 ammo. Buffalo Bore says this about their 38+P:
"Item 20B/20 uses the low velocity (LV) Jacketed Hollow Point bullet that is designed to expand at as little as 800 fps, so you will get expansion out of very short barrels...Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh."
Since their ammo gets over 1000 fps from a 2" barrel, it ought to expand as reliably as anything, and 14 inches is enough.
The problem some folks have is they forget how bullet construction impacts effectiveness. You can make a bullet so hard it won't expand at all. It will give good penetration, but not as wide a hole. Or you can make a bullet that expands beautifully, but doesn't penetrate. A good manufacturer - and I think almost all the main ones are - matches the bullet construction with expected velocity.
I carry 38+P in my S&W Model 60, and rather mild 357 ammo in my 686. Since the 686 is nearly twice the weight of the 60, I can bump up to 357 without much downside - but I'm not undergunned with the 38+P.
I also like 44/45 ammo, but right now I don't shoot much because it is more expensive and I want more practice with 38/357s first. And I don't know of any real world data that shows the 44/45 is any more effective against humans than the 9mm/38/357. All just IMHO.
Gunmeister
Member
Plus1 for Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP--1040FPS @379 ft lbs out of a 2" S&W Mod 60 aint too shabby. 357MAG out of a 2" barrel don't do much better than that BUT out of a 3",4" or 6" barrel, the improvement in velocity and energy is huge.
My dear old departed Pappy was a down south Deputy Sheriff in the South Florida Glades in the mid 40's, his piece was a 6 round Colt Police Positive that he bought for around $40 new, he didn't have +P rounds, speed strips or speed loaders just more 12 rounds on his belt. Pappy was one tough hombre who commanded respect just by looking at him. Oh yeah the pump 12 gauge that was constantly on his shoulder might have helped a little too. Not to mention his back up, old Blazer his 75lb Mexican Pit Bull Terrier. Lawmen were characters back in those days and had to rely solely on themselves, no back up for many miles. I could write a book about that old man, RIP Pop.
My dear old departed Pappy was a down south Deputy Sheriff in the South Florida Glades in the mid 40's, his piece was a 6 round Colt Police Positive that he bought for around $40 new, he didn't have +P rounds, speed strips or speed loaders just more 12 rounds on his belt. Pappy was one tough hombre who commanded respect just by looking at him. Oh yeah the pump 12 gauge that was constantly on his shoulder might have helped a little too. Not to mention his back up, old Blazer his 75lb Mexican Pit Bull Terrier. Lawmen were characters back in those days and had to rely solely on themselves, no back up for many miles. I could write a book about that old man, RIP Pop.
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BlindJustice
Member
After getting a S&W 686P 4" Bbl. and shooting .357 Mag in it. I just didn't connect with the recoil and 2+ feet of muzzle flash besides the
supersonic BOOM! I ended up selling it to a good buddy who
with older wrists wasn't enjoying his MOdel 29 much any longer.
I have a S&W MOdel 60-15 3" Bbl. .357 Mag. and the HD/SD load is
.38 SPecial +P 125 gr. Speer Gold Dots from Double Tap @ 1125 fps w/4"Bbl.
so much better recoil management, controllability, and I shoot it much
better than the few times I've lit off full house .357 mag in it as well as the
load being just under the speed of sound.
Still my 60 is a backup for the 1911/.rt ACP
I think with the slow burning powders and higher pressure in .357 Mag
it;s a cartridge that works better in larger framed revolvers with
at least a 5" or preferably 6" Bbl. length to ensure more complete
burn of the powder.
Randall M.
supersonic BOOM! I ended up selling it to a good buddy who
with older wrists wasn't enjoying his MOdel 29 much any longer.
I have a S&W MOdel 60-15 3" Bbl. .357 Mag. and the HD/SD load is
.38 SPecial +P 125 gr. Speer Gold Dots from Double Tap @ 1125 fps w/4"Bbl.
so much better recoil management, controllability, and I shoot it much
better than the few times I've lit off full house .357 mag in it as well as the
load being just under the speed of sound.
Still my 60 is a backup for the 1911/.rt ACP
I think with the slow burning powders and higher pressure in .357 Mag
it;s a cartridge that works better in larger framed revolvers with
at least a 5" or preferably 6" Bbl. length to ensure more complete
burn of the powder.
Randall M.
357reloading
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blind justice . i purchased a Taurus 8 3/8 barrel model 608 357 mag. . what a pleasure to shoot. Is an older model and trigger pull, lock up etc. is better than any 8 hot smith i have picked up at a dealers counter.
Great fun to shoot with the long barrel. Same ammo in my sp 101 2.25 barrel is not fun. I see people at the indoor range buying and shooting the light weight smiths with full loads. most are complaining, but like all guns . some love the recoil. what ever works.
Great fun to shoot with the long barrel. Same ammo in my sp 101 2.25 barrel is not fun. I see people at the indoor range buying and shooting the light weight smiths with full loads. most are complaining, but like all guns . some love the recoil. what ever works.
roaddog28
Member
Here is what I use for SD/HD. Buffalo Bore SWCHP 38+P 158gr.Again, shot placement is key and the 38+P will get the job done. Here is a comparion on ballistics of the 38+P. You can see the Buffalo Bore will get the job done.
Howard
http://handgunsandammo.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=calibers&action=display&thread=9567
Howard
http://handgunsandammo.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=calibers&action=display&thread=9567
41magsnub
Member
I fired a 357 j frame once and that was enough. when I bought my j frame last year I got .38 special only model airweight. I shoot the speer 135gr short barrel optimized rounds. If that is all the gun I am carrying in the woods I change to the BB 150gr hard cast wadcutters. I don't feel under armed either way.
However, in my 4" Security Six I use either a 180 gr Federal hard cast 357 in the woods or 125gr .38 +p gold dots for house duty.
However, in my 4" Security Six I use either a 180 gr Federal hard cast 357 in the woods or 125gr .38 +p gold dots for house duty.
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Edwin Marshall and James Sannow did a study on handgun stopping power several years ago. They put out a book (Amazon) that listed the loads that got the best results based on their research. Basically they called around to hospitals and morgues looking for examples of "One Shot Stops" in which the person was stopped with one shot instead of running around shooting for 20 minutes while bleeding out. A lot of the shootings were police shootings and very well documented.
I don't remember all of the details but the .357 Magnum got a 97% chance of one shot stops with 125 gr JHP. I don't remember the manufacturer or if it was +p. The .40 S&W got a 96% chance of one shot stops with 180 gr JHP by Corbon. Again, I don't remember if it was +p. The .38 Special only scored in the 60-70% range. I believe it was in the low 60's.
Feel free to correct the % if you do the research. I haven't seen the summary in a few years.
Ammo tech changes just like everything else. I'm sure that today's hollowpoints are better than they were 7 or 8 years ago when I read about Marshall and Sannow's work.
I don't remember all of the details but the .357 Magnum got a 97% chance of one shot stops with 125 gr JHP. I don't remember the manufacturer or if it was +p. The .40 S&W got a 96% chance of one shot stops with 180 gr JHP by Corbon. Again, I don't remember if it was +p. The .38 Special only scored in the 60-70% range. I believe it was in the low 60's.
Feel free to correct the % if you do the research. I haven't seen the summary in a few years.
Ammo tech changes just like everything else. I'm sure that today's hollowpoints are better than they were 7 or 8 years ago when I read about Marshall and Sannow's work.
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