When to carry, and when not to carry

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SSN VET

I have the pdf from handgunlaw.us and I see where you cannot carry on school property but unless it is posted or something it does not appear to be illegal to carry in hospitals. Am I wrong?

Also, CHEVELLE472. I think that holster of yours is now considered a dangerous device under NFA and is illegal. Perhaps you should check that out.

Galco used to make and sell a pocket holster for small semi-autos but the BATFE rulled that they were "dangerous devices" as per the NFA and are now illegal to use or pocess with a firearm in them.

Check out this search I did on the BATFE web site:

http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/sear...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=atf&proxystylesheet=atf

Edit:SSN VET, I mean the Maine pdf.
 
Also, CHEVELLE472. I think that holster of yours is now considered a dangerous device under NFA and is illegal. Perhaps you should check that out.

You're thinking of the NFA Title II "Any Other Weapon" category that covers pen-guns, cane-guns, wallet-guns, and other things that don't look like firearms (along with some other types of firearms).

If you and Chevelle want to discuss this, please take it into another thread rather than hijack this one.
Update: Actually, if you check this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=546407) you'll find that this exact holster has been passed by the ATF as not an AOW becasue it doesn't cover the slide and/or hide the nature of the firearm.

So...back to our discussion...
 
Posted by fiddletown: I carry whenever I legally can. And I don't carry when I legally can't. That approach pretty much takes the guess work out of it.
Exactly.

I just don't want to be getting into the business of trying to decide whether or not I should carry or whether I might need a gun where I'm going.
If I could do that with any certainty, I would try to transfer the prediction skills to investment strategy!

First off, if I think I might need a gun, I ain't going there.
I made that decision the day I got my CCW endorsement.

Second, I'd really hate it if I made a decision not to carry, even though I could have, and that turned out to be the one time in my life I really did need to have a gun.
My thoughts exactly.

So if it's legal for me, I carry. If it's not, I don't.
I cannot see a better routine.
 
Same reason I'm carrying now. Same reason you do, when you do. Same reason I put on my seatbelt, same reason have fire extinguishers in my house, same reason I lock my doors, same reason I have a saving account, same reason I put my kids in child safety seats... (is this really that hard to understand?).

You are bad at guessing. Both times at a hospital. It wouldn't matter if they prohibited firearms or not, their policy doesn't hold any legal water in Colorado. FWIW, the hospital did NOT prohibit carrying.

Wearing a swim suit was not part of the original scenario. You asked about going to the beach. Now that we're onto a different question though, I never said I would be carrying, I said I'd be armed. See Sam1911's answer.

Why not? My wife is a very responsible person, and she can watch over it just fine.

No real difference from the beach. I go armed. Do these few and similar scenarios qualify as "several examples where it would be against the law, or impractical"?

Me too. Please rent this crystal ball to me. Please.

No personal offense, but I can now see that you are playing some games with some of your answers. For instance the comment about "your wife being responsible". My example was predicated on people going into the water, (otherwise the beach is like any other place) not having someone you could leave the gun with. I don't know too many people that go to the beach and have a gun holder to watch over it while you swim. Presumably in your take on the scenario, you would then watch the gun while your wife took a separate dip in the water.:rolleyes:
My point is/was very simple in that unless you want to chance getting your gun wet, you would have to be irresponsible by leaving it unattended while you were swimming, surfing, etc., or not carry.

As to the theme of illegal vs. legal carry, I am assuming that everyone here would abide by the law. So your comment about carrying regardless of a hospital restricting you to do so is a waste of time. You may not be arrested in your state, but you could be made to leave. To me, that would seem like a steep price to pay in a low risk scenario.


I will address other specific comments regarding my stance on when to carry based on a potential threat. However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others. So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto. You do not need a crystal ball to differentiate between the two.
 
I just peer into my crystal ball each morning to determine whether or not I'll need to fight for my life that day.
 
Posted by fiddletown: I carry whenever I legally can. And I don't carry when I legally can't. That approach pretty much takes the guess work out of it.

Thread winner!!

As for the beach, I did not carry when I went there or thw waterpark.

As for the hospital. It's illegal to carry on hospital property here, that ends that.

I am not allowed to carry at work per their policy either.
 
i personally dont leave my house without my kevlar vest, at least 2 handguns, and a 6" tanto........if i think something serious might go down, i may sling my rifle over my back before i head out......i dont take any chances.

I don't know if you are saying that tongue in cheek, or you are serious.:confused:

Obviously I do not know what you do for a living, nor where you live, but it seems like you perceive that you are in constant danger. Personally I could not live like that unless there was no other choice economically.
 
To me, that would seem like a steep price to pay in a low risk scenario.

Please define "low risk".

However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others.

Once again, how is that obvious? I can provide instances of violence occurring in virtually any environment, regardless of it's percieved "safety". It only takes one time for a previously "safe" place to become a crime scene.

So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto.

Based on your opinion. As stated, crime can and does occur anywhere. People have been assaulted and killed in hospitals, schools, shopping malls, and myriad other public, "low risk" areas - just as they have been in crime-ridden ghettos.

Carrying a weapon in a "safe" area is exactly the same as carrying in an unsafe one - it is there if you need it. No more, no less.
 
I carry wherever I can legally, which is when I return to NY from PA. I do not carry based on assessing a perceived threat because If I believed there was anymore danger than normal I would not go at least not without a longarm. My handgun is for when the situation is normal and a sudden issue pops up.

I change my carry based on what I can carry. Anywhere from a Glock with 15 round mag and a spare when concealable to a Glock with a ten round. I can also go to a KT P3AT with spare to just the P3AT when home for the night.

On the one hand I agree with you about not going into dangerous situation if I can avoid it. However there are times you must travel through areas that are not as safe as where you live. Where I live, a longarm is not an option because you must carry concealed.
As to different guns for different scenarios, that is my thinking as well. Now I live in a very safe neighborhood, so if I am out walking my dog at night, I normally only carry an extendable baton for other dogs. I might carry a small 9mm figuring I might need it for a stray pit that could come along, but normally I do not.
If I have to go downtown I carry something with more firepower in case I break down or am forced to stop in the area. To me the level of the possible threat makes a big difference as to what I might carry.
 
My example was predicated on people going into the water, (otherwise the beach is like any other place) not having someone you could leave the gun with. I don't know too many people that go to the beach and have a gun holder to watch over it while you swim.
In my case, we go to the beach with our children, so there are no times when everyone is submerged. I can be with the bag and the littlest while my wife is in the water. Or she is with the bag while I and the oldest are in the water. If I'm wading with the little one(s), I can have the bag with me. Worst-case scenario seems to be the gun gets wet. I'd much rather strip down and clean a stainless firearm than try to get salt water out of my cell phone -- and I'm not leaving that up on the beach unattended either! It really isn't a semantic game -- it's reality.

If I was going to the beach alone and was going to swim completely submerged, or surf, or whatever -- I'd have to make the choice to carry a gun that could handle it (and that I could conceal in swim gear) or leave it locked elsewhere. Neither is particularly appealing, but as I said, life is full of compromises and I'm not much of a beach-goer.

You may not be arrested in your state, but you could be made to leave. To me, that would seem like a steep price to pay in a low risk scenario.
But the risk of being asked to leave from some place if our gun is discovered is one that just about all of us live with every day. I don't consider a hospital (with all of its attendant emotion, and stress, and the highly interesting cross-section of society present therein at any given time) to be a "low risk" location.

However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places [strike]are[/strike] SEEM safer than others.
Seem safer ... If you need to defend yourself, whatever place that need arises just became not a safe place to be. Again, none of us can tell ahead of time. Some places may attract far more than their fair share of trouble, but no place is devoid of it.

So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto.
You said "going to a..." Where is your hospital located? Most aren't in a gated community with a roving security patrol. Many are in downright unpleasant areas with very high rates of violent crime just outside their doors. Perhaps it is not unreasonable to place your sidearm in a bag with your other personal effects next to you in the delivery room -- if you feel the need to have it off of your body during the proceedings, but I don't think it is a wise choice to venture outside to get the car without it. (And probably not to pass through the emergency receiving area either, based on various news reports.)
 
Please define "low risk".

Real simple, statistics.

Regardless of the once in a blue moon example someone might post, I'd bet dollars to donuts the need for deadly force in maternity wards is next to nothing.
Now I guess if you live in urban blight and must use a public hospital to have your child delivered, the % might go up infinitesimally, but maternity wards are by and large safe places to be.
 
Quote: Vector
"I will address other specific comments regarding my stance on when to carry based on a potential threat. However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others. So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto. You do not need a crystal ball to differentiate between the two."


Your feeling of safety is entirely without data or consideration. My wife works in a large city hospital and the most dangerous part of the hospital is the maternity ward. (She had data to back it up) Apparently, there are big issues between women and often men (but mostly women) about who the father is, the color of the child, who is sleeping with who etcetera.

Vector, you are wrapping yourself into a baseless determination of what you think is safe. You do not know these places to be safe, you are assuming that they are. In fact, no place on this planet is so safe that one would never have to be concerned about their own safety. You are also attempting to condescend to other that do not share your world view, which I do not appreciate. Many of them may not understand what you are looking to achieve with this thread.

You are looking to assuage your own concerns by being able to label others as paranoid or unreasonable. After all, you decide what is safe and what is not. You want to be able to think that you are indeed taking the intellectual high road through your own flawed logic. You are wrong.

I carry everywhere I go, as long as it is not prohibited by law. Here in Pennsylvania that means I can carry in hospitals, banks, bars, supermarkets, public transit, sushi restaurants and anywhere else not prohibited. Why? Because everywhere I go I am responsible for my own safety and security. I am ultimately responsible for my safety, and thus I am responsible for it. In no situation can I delegate that responsibility to another with any type of warranty.

Where to carry is entirely up to you, and as an individual I support your right to make that choice. The decision to carry a firearm is highly personal. You have no right to judge the decisions of others concerning when and how they carry, it is their business.

I take great issue with the flawed logic of "sometimes carry" based on the presumption of risk. As many have stated before, why go where it is perceived to be risky to life and limb. That is the rub, we never know where we will face life and death or when. How many people think on a daily basis that the school they are teaching or studying in will be the location of the next mass murder spree? None of us know. To be trained and proficient with a firearm and not have one (let alone needing one at a certain point) is a tremendous waste of an ability. If you do not carry all of the time you are at risk for the rarity of violent crime... that is your risk. (Having a firearm will not assure complete success in any violent situation, but it helps)
 
I personally will not carry a gun if I have to leave it in my car. I just don't think it is responsible to do so. Cars are too easily broken into to leave a gun in there and have it end up on the street.

So yeah, no gun while surfing, running etc.

Yes M-Cameron was joking. :) Of course, anyone walking around like would be talked to by the police in an instant.

Anyhow this thread is still a couple notches down from the one a while back on "How to carry in the shower"

And yes they were totally serious. :rolleyes:

( I think the idea of using a type of plastic bag with a hanger on it to hang the gun on the shower head won out. :p )
 
sig220mw wrote:

Concealed carry laws in Texas don't allow us to carry in hospitals.

Incorrect, unless you are talking about a psychiatric hospital or a hospital somehow connected with a school.

Otherwise, hospitals in Texas (and churches BTW) must be posted with the 30.06 Statute in order to legally forbid "carry".
 
But the risk of being asked to leave from some place if our gun is discovered is one that just about all of us live with every day. I don't consider a hospital (with all of its attendant emotion, and stress, and the highly interesting cross-section of society present therein at any given time) to be a "low risk" location.

Seem safer ... If you need to defend yourself, whatever place that need arises
You said "going to a..." Where is your hospital located? Most aren't in a gated community with a roving security patrol. Many are in downright unpleasant areas with very high rates of violent crime just outside their doors. Perhaps it is not unreasonable to place your sidearm in a bag with your other personal effects next to you in the delivery room -- if you feel the need to have it off of your body during the proceedings, but I don't think it is a wise choice to venture outside to get the car without it. (And probably not to pass through the emergency receiving area either, based on various news reports.)

I just spoke about urban vs. private hospitals in my last post. However even in a public hospital, the maternity ward is not a likely place you would need to use deadly force to protect yourself.

As to be asked to leave, I should not have assumed you read the earlier post. If you are there to see your kid being born, why risk being forced to leave and missing the one time blessed event?
 
I carry. Two kids, and I was holding the wife's right leg during each delivery. There was a gun on my hip both times.

Did she try to pull your lower lip over your head?

I carry any where I can legally carry I put my seat belt on every time I get in the car even if I'm just moving parking spots
 
I don't leave my house without my gun, Cell phone and knife. No kevlar vest tho, Do i need one?

I will be using the FiF on this topic as it may incriminalate me.
Imo only an idiot will post online that they break the law of any type.
 
Real simple, statistics.

Statistics are a poor measure of the real world. But even if they weren't it takes but once for a previously peaceful location to transform into a bloodbath.

VA Tech was "safe" by your estimation - Cho changed that. The Luby's cafeteria, Westroads mall, U of MD Hospital, where the Dr. was shot...same thing. Statistically, very safe areas. In reality, just as vulnerable to attack and criminal behavior as anywhere else.

If I may, I'm curious - if you already carry, then surely you can appreciate that once you strap on your pistol, it is essentially a non-issue as you carry out your daily activities. It's not going anywhere unless you choose to deploy it in response to a threat.

How does that differ from carrying in a supposed "safe" area? Why is it reasonable for you to carry in one place, and not the other, when doing so requires nothing more than toting the thing around?
 
Regardless of the once in a blue moon example someone might post...

If this not WHY we carry? The once in a blue moon example? Look I know there are places in town I would go to which would significantly raise the risk of something happening. Unless I absolutely need to I do not go there. However, ONCE in a blue moon 2 kids went on a shooting spree in Columbine. Once in a blue moon someone shot up a McD's in California. Once in a blue moon a recently paroled felon showed up at the entrance to my subdivision (a middle class, "safe" neighborhood) and shot into 2 homes and at the dozen officers who responded. You see where I am going? Once in a blue moons happen all the time and all places. ECMC in Buffalo, NY had shooting in the hospital ER. Gaston Memorial in Gastonia, NC (pretty safe hospital) had a shooting in the ER (which was the SAME door the woman in labor used at the time).

If we only wore guns when our chances of running into trouble were high, then I am betting most of us would not be carrying.

Now in NC hospital carry is illegal so that is/was not an option for me. I wish it was however.
 
CHEVELLE427 wrote:

remember back about 10-15 years ago in Californian i think it was.
a lady was going to meet up with her mom and dad at a MC Donald's and there was a no guns allowed sign on the door, so she left her permitted to carry gun in her car.

a crazed man came in and killed 26 people it think it was. the woman that left her gun in the car got to watch her parents get murdered.

she just testified before congress a few years back about the right to carry .

now she wonders if she could have made a difference if she had not obeyed the no gun sign.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre

Sounds like the Luby’s massacre that happened in ’91 (Suzanna Hupp) here in Texas.
 
As to be asked to leave, I should not have assumed you read the earlier post. If you are there to see your kid being born, why risk being forced to leave and missing the one time blessed event?

I certainly did read it. And I've replied extensively on my views of the perception of safety surrounding a hospital. I risk being asked to leave any number of places. I've carried in police stations while being fingerprinted, while on roller coasters, in my employer's vehicle going to client meetings, on the beach, at religious services, weddings, etc., etc. I am comfortable with that risk. I weigh that risk against the more compelling risk of reaching for that gun in a moment of need and not having it there.

(I admit, again, that I did not risk getting kicked out of my children's births. Heck, I delivered the last one myself (wife helped a little) and my wife didn't seem to care much at the time where my guns were... ;))
 
Quote: Vector
"I will address other specific comments regarding my stance on when to carry based on a potential threat. However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others. So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto. You do not need a crystal ball to differentiate between the two."


Your feeling of safety is entirely without data or consideration. My wife works in a large city hospital and the most dangerous part of the hospital is the maternity ward. (She had data to back it up) Apparently, there are big issues between women and often men (but mostly women) about who the father is, the color of the child, who is sleeping with who etcetera.

Vector, you are wrapping yourself into a baseless determination of what you think is safe. You do not know these places to be safe, you are assuming that they are. In fact, no place on this planet is so safe that one would never have to be concerned about their own safety. You are also attempting to condescend to other that do not share your world view, which I do not appreciate. Many of them may not understand what you are looking to achieve with this thread.

You are looking to assuage your own concerns by being able to label others as paranoid or unreasonable. After all, you decide what is safe and what is not. You want to be able to think that you are indeed taking the intellectual high road through your own flawed logic. You are wrong.

I carry everywhere I go, as long as it is not prohibited by law. Here in Pennsylvania that means I can carry in hospitals, banks, bars, supermarkets, public transit, sushi restaurants and anywhere else not prohibited. Why? Because everywhere I go I am responsible for my own safety and security. I am ultimately responsible for my safety, and thus I am responsible for it. In no situation can I delegate that responsibility to another with any type of warranty.

Where to carry is entirely up to you, and as an individual I support your right to make that choice. The decision to carry a firearm is highly personal. You have no right to judge the decisions of others concerning when and how they carry, it is their business.

I take great issue with the flawed logic of "sometimes carry" based on the presumption of risk. As many have stated before, why go where it is perceived to be risky to life and limb. That is the rub, we never know where we will face life and death or when. How many people think on a daily basis that the school they are teaching or studying in will be the location of the next mass murder spree? None of us know. To be trained and proficient with a firearm and not have one (let alone needing one at a certain point) is a tremendous waste of an ability. If you do not carry all of the time you are at risk for the rarity of violent crime... that is your risk. (Having a firearm will not assure complete success in any violent situation, but it helps)

Don't take this personally, but I am literally laughing at your second paragraph about irate fathers in maternity wards. :D

Lets assume for the sake of argument you are right, and many fathers are questioning the paternity of their newborn child. How many of them are going to whip out a gun and start killing everyone?:rolleyes:
I'd very much like you to provide the data to back up that claim, because it seems absurd to me.

As to me being condescending, my response to you is the first time. :p

Seriously, I have not once called anyone paranoid or unreasonable, it is just that I do not understand some peoples thinking. That does not mean I think they are idiots or nut jobs, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what motivates them. I might disagree with their way of thinking, but I do not think I have been disparaging. I am just attempting to have a mature and rational discussion on the subject.
 
I carried a CZ 70 .32 auto SOB when my son was born. It was my backup, and I was called straight from work when he was taken via C-Section. The primary sidearm was in the trunk, slung in there with the duty belt as I was racing away from work that day!
Carry everywhere? Yes, except work, there I carry Dept issued sidearm or the inside-the-wire non-lethal stuff. No beaches, and I don't walk around in shorts, flip flops bare chested. Gah, what an ugly thought....
Yes, the maternity ward was set up as a safe room with auto lock doors and extra security. There was a gunman running from PD next to the hospital once, but that was the closest it got. The wife was armed in the NICU with my son when they slammed the doors when that happened.
 
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