Defeating Without Fighting

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mortablunt

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I've noticed that there has been a lot of talk about fights and theoretical tactics here. However, I'd like to get the ball rolling on a thread about ways to identify and avoid potential troublemakers before things get ugly. How do you spot a potential bad guy. What's the best way to escape from one without opening a confrontation? Are there are sort of behavioral patterns identifiable in a person who is looking to cause trouble?
 
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Great topic, and a popular one here in S&T where our unofficial slogan is, the best gunfight is the one you DON'T have.

Try to run a search on "Situational Awareness" or "Failing the Victim Profile." Those will be good starting points.
 
i believe there is a passage in "the art of war"....that goes something like " if you can avoid a fight, you have already won"......or something to that effect.

I've noticed that there has been a lot of talk about fights and theoretical tactics here. However, I'd like to get the ball rolling on a thread about ways to identify and avoid potential troublemakers before things get ugly. How do you spot a potential bad guy. What's the best way to escape from one without opening a confrontation? Are there are sort of behavioral patterns identifiable in a person who is looking to cause trouble?
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as much as i hate stereotyping people.........we forget that stereotypes sometimes exist for a reason.

throw political correctness out the window.......being PC wont help one bit when you are being attacked because you didnt want to offend anyone.

if your walking down the street....and you see a group of "thugs"....and on the other side of the street, you see a pack of nuns.......guess which side of the road im walking on...

now of course the "thugs" could in reality be a group of chior boys coming from a costume party.......and the nuns are criminals in disguise........but honestly, how often do chior boys go to costume parties....

quite simply, go with your gut.



as to escape a situation........simple......just walk/ run away.

if something seems "off", just leave.....

try to stay in well lit, and populated areas.



behaviors of people....

look for people who are constantly looking around, constantly fidgeting, trying to look inconspicuous.

people who "have a chip on their shoulder"

again, go with your gut......if something just seems "off" about someone, avoid them.
 
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A few simple thoughts:

1) LOOK at each person around you. Practice actively noticing who is in your local area. Practice actively thinking something about each one, especially something related to what he/she appears to be doing.

1a) Anyone who approaches you or changes direction to intersect with you needs extra attention right away. See them when they're 30 yds. off, not 10 feet away.

2) Extend your distance of sight. In driving class they teach you not to "over-drive your headlights." Same idea. Look more than a few steps ahead and practice actively thinking about each feature you're going to pass. Building corner, alley mouth, parked truck, wooded spot, etc. What could shield someone from your view until you're too late to change course? As you look at your path ask yourself where you'd hide or set a trap for someone.

3) If approached, put things between you and the other person, if possible. Cars, benches, even shopping carts. Anything that someone has to maneuver around to get to you may give you a second to recognize hostile intent.

4) Be as polite as possible, but not so polite that you give up your defenses. If someone's approaching you and aggressively invading your personal zone, DO boldly speak to them. "Hey, STOP. Don't come closer!" might seem rude, but a polite person with good intent will be jolted by that and stop, apologize, and later wonder why you were such a jerk. Someone of bad intent will continue to advance despite your warnings. (Doesn't mean you can SHOOT them, but gives you more information to work with.)

5) Keep your head "on a swivel." Apply the above techniques to what's going on behind you as well. You are most vulnerable from behind. Make a habit of checking your "six."

6) Look for the "other" guy. Hostile folks frequently have accomplices and part of the plan may be for one to hold your attention while another boxes you in. Don't be so tunnel-visioned on character A that you don't notice character B just out of your field of view.
 
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Mentioned frequently here, but one more time won't hurt -

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

Five Stages of Violent Crime
On this page:
Five stages of Violent Crime | Intent | Interview | Positioning| Attack | Reaction| AOI (shorthand version) | Conclusion

The Five Stages of Violent Crime is an internationally recognized system to identify if -- and determine when and if -- you are being set up for a crime or violence. The information contained on this page is from DVD/video, Street Safe: How to Recognize and Avoid Violent Crime. It is used by police, military and firearms instructors around the world as a training and teaching tool. Also the system is taught internationally in self defense and crime prevention courses(1)///snip
============

The entire nononsenseselfdefense site is well worth your while, many would say the concepts there are foundational...

Also, trainer John Farnam cuts right to the chase, as with most things: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html . Some good advice there too.

fwiw,

lpl
 
it's almost always shown in their attitude towards me, staring at me, sneer/scowl/snarl on face, or 'wooden face" no visible reaction to stimuli. That sets off the alarm bells, sometimes, tho, it's too late to do more than draw, block, strike, step or pivot to avoid. Try to not let strangers get within 6 ft of you without your doing something about it, and watch out for "friends" if they indulge in alchohol or drugs, too. Personally, I try to avoid anyone who uses tobacco or coffee. They are addicts, too, but their addiction is legalized. Beware addicts, man, their thinking is warped.
 
This is a good time to review the "pretense of innocence," a technique often used by the criminal element to move into your personal space and attempt to take advantage before you have time to react. This is an excerpt from one of my recent writings. There are several other instructors that present information on the pretense of innocence as well.

With several years of work as a patrol officer, I can attest that deception is not only used by criminals, it is an indispensable tool in the criminal toolbox. In fact, the first class they attend at CCC (Crook Community College) is Deception 101. This should not be of any great surprise to you, but criminals lie.

Under the pretense of innocence, a criminal will not only size you up but avail themselves of the opportunity to move in close and gain an advantage. Think of it this way, rarely does a robber walk into the jewelry store and with zero forethought initiate the robbery. Does it happen? Of course, but not as a rule. Most often one or more robbers will casually walk in under the guise of being a customer, observe the layout, other shoppers, and the staff as a whole. They will likely ask to see one or more items, building trust while moving in close for an advantage. By the time the robbery is realized, they hope to have an overwhelming advantage.

Ok, you don’t own a jewelry store. Do you ever walk to your car? Have you ever had someone casually walk up to you and ask the time, getting you to look down at your watch? Ever had a stranger initiate small talk? Did you ever think it was possible that this person was actually trying to move in closer, establish trust, get you to believe that they were innocent, but ultimately had a plan to do you serious harm?

A robber or rapist is not going to announce their intentions until they perceive that they are well within their ability to carry out their threatening actions. If they did, you would flee. They generally are not going to stalk you, stepping slowly around the corner or vehicle like you may have seen in the movies. They are going to casually appear, innocently approach, gain an advantage, and then attack. By then, it may be too late to do anything about it.

Deception is only engaged by the criminal long enough to develop the ability to attack you. So how do you stop it without drawing your weapon on every person that says “hello?” You must break their process. You see, if you interrupt the development of their approach you may thereby hinder or thwart their intended plan.

There is a distinct difference between paranoia and reality. It has been said that you should accept everyone at face value while having a definitive plan on how to kill them. I may not go that far but you should temper your interaction with others, especially those with whom you do not have any formal acquaintance. Strive to make assertive (not aggressive) eye contact with those in your vicinity. Let them know that you are there and are taking note of their actions, even if it is nothing more than them walking by you on the way to their own car. If someone approaches, attempt to place an obstacle between the two of you, but at least place one foot back and bring your hands up near your midsection. You may do this in a very non-threatening manner while providing a non-verbal cue that you are not an easy target. Do not allow yourself to be roped into close contact or conversation with a stranger, even if it means offending them.
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You need to learn hand to hand combat skills, really, just to "buy" yourself the time and space needed to draw a ccw'd pistol. It will take you at least 3/4 second to react, draw and fire a chest hit at arm's length, from a ccw belt rig. A man can charge from 10 ft in 1 second, and reach you with his bare hand. If he has a club, walking stick, etc, you will befiring as he strikes you, even if you have the fastest ccw belt draw in the world. You simply must let people pass by you a lot closer than any 10 ft, so your gun is quite likely to be of no value to you if you lack h2h skills to go with it. U can be kicked in 1/4 second, so low that you can't block it. A hand strike can be as fast as .10 second. You can't react to a signal and fire an aimed in, safety off, trigger half-pulled gun in less than .20 second. An electronic shooting timer is a vital piece of training gear;.
 
1. Trust your gut.

2. Try to see it coming, avoid if possible, if not

3. Hold out weak hand, saying "don't want no trouble mister" while

4. Reaching for the draw.

5. If 1-4 doesn't cut it, and situation warrants it, draw.

You gotta keep it simple. Learning 100 different things and training for them isn't as good as KNOWING a few different things and being able to apply them in most or all situations. This is an old Kung Fu principle too.

Been in too many situations that I'd rather not have been in. Extracted myself in all of them, or else I wouldn't be here, and in all these years only had to present one time. In my youth, I tended not to follow my gut. Now that I have that straightened out, I seldom find myself in situations I would rather not be in.

If you like Sun Tzu and such, check out Miyamoto Musashi. Considered the greatest swordsman and samurai that ever lived. His life WAS the warrior way. Come to think of it, he practically invented the warrior way.
 
a lot of gun/shooting issues go away if you are skilled at hand to hand. You need not shoot the 12 year old with the paring knife, the drunk with his pocketknife, etc, you see. you can handle it with H2h, with your gun in your hand in case you screw up.
 
a lot of gun/shooting issues go away if you are skilled at hand to hand.
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Some do, some don't.

Not everyone is a trained martial artist, in good health, in the prime of life, and with full control of their faculties.

Not everyone is confident that grappling with someone wielding a knife is a very good idea. In fact, those here who ARE well-trained in the fighting arts will pretty much say that when faced with a knife, you SHOOT. There's no heroism in bleeding out on the sidewalk with an unfired gun.
 
You need not shoot the 12 year old with the paring knife, the drunk with his pocketknife, etc, you see. you can handle it with H2h, with your gun in your hand in case you screw up.
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While I also advocate unarmed skills as part of the skill set, I have seen the results of too many trained folks who thought they could handle the person with a knife...it wasn't pretty.

I've had more than one edged weapon instructors tell me that, if given the choice, it is much preferred to shoot the wielder of an edged weapon...it is highly defensible n court
 
How do you spot a potential bad guy.
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Slightly tongue in cheek, but I look for...

1. Location
- Know the areas with a higher propensity for violent crime. They are usually easy to spot as they are areas that are unkempt, decrepit, vandalized, graffiti laden, etc...
- When a "community" shows they don't respect property, or simply don't care to maintain it, that is a good sign that they don't respect the law, or people either.

2. "Uniform"
- If you do a quick video search, you will find that violent criminal acts are rarely performed by criminals wearing business suits. Most involve some elements of the current "thug" uniform prevalent in our society.
- Attire and appearance is another form of non-verbal communication, learn to interpret what people are trying to communicate about themselves by their attire, whether they do so intentionally or not.

3. Behavior
- This is THE big discriminator.
- While an individual may be "wearing the uniform", it may simply be a "costume", and they are not legit.
- Humans, like animals, exhibit behaviors that can betray their intent. Predatory behaviors are pretty easy to pick up, and "usually" can be shut down by demonstrating to the predator that you are NOT "easy" prey. There are far too many sheep out in the world, so a predator is not likely to waste their time on anything that could present a challenge.


What's the best way to escape from one without opening a confrontation?
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Be polite, CONFIDENT, and ASSERTIVE, and go about your business. Criminals generally look for people they can intimidate as they see it as a sign of weakness. When that weakness is not present, they are likely to look for another target.

Are there sort of behavioral patterns identifiable in a person who is looking to cause trouble?
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Absolutely.

Staring you down / assessing you. Closing the distance and invading your personal space. Unsolicited questions meant to test your confidence / resolve. Attempting to gain positions of advantage. Distracting you for another individual.

Basically, the same predatory behaviors found in the 4 legged animal kingdom.

Mentioned frequently here, but one more time won't hurt -
Click to expand...

Have not seen that link before, thanks.
 
"How do you spot a potential bad guy?"

First, you can't spot them if you're not looking. It's a struggle that most of us face--daydreaming, checking our smartphone for messages, focusing on the ever-so-interesting construction project down the street--and that lack of focus has at least two consequences. First, it's fairly easy for the would-be assailant to spot someone who's in la-la land. Second, it prevents you from identifying a potential threat until it's on top of you.

There is something to the way people dress, but it's only one factor. What a guy in his mid-fifties (like me) thinks is gangster apparel may be nothing more than fashion that I just don't get. I'm always a little more tuned in to groups of young guys, particularly if you start seeing other cues. But, for me it's all about body language. The eyes are the most telling, but an individual's overall way of moving--a swagger, if you will--is often part of their intent to intimidate.

Finally, and perhaps most important to me, if they approach too aggressively or get too close it's time to act. My response, which has worked more than once, is to place a hand toward them, palm out, and say in a loud voice, "Stop." I've never had a person fail to back off when I did that, but if they continued to advance, I'd take that as a clear escalation.
 
Did any one mention Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense, I'd guess it's still sold by Paladin Press.
Best,
Rob
 
I'm polite in a formalistic, Japanese sort of way, but I'm by no means friendly toward strangers. I don't have the slightest difficulty in rebuffing sketchy people. The last time I had to do it was a few Christmases ago in the Cleveland Amtrak station.

There was a guy wandering around the station waiting room begging money with a sob story about him and his kids living in his car. He scared some of the women into coughing up cash, then hit on me. I looked him straight in the eye with my best "Josey Wales" stare and quietly said, "I've got nothing for you." He sized up the situation and moved on quickly. Of course it probably didn't hurt that I was wearing my NRA instructor's cap and reading the book "Combat Handgunnery". Only moments later, an Amtrak cop showed up, noted that he'd recently thrown him out and was about to do the same thing again.
 
Everything said is correct, but will it work for you? I could list what I would advise but it would be like writing a book. I suggest you find an instructor who teaches basic dirty fighting and the aspects of it. It is more of Canadian combato combined with the WWII methods taught forgetting holds, high kicks, ground fighting unless absolutely necessary and anything goes. I find everyone finds what works for them hopefully before it is needed and a gun is the solution and can be the problem, just depending.....
 
Thanks for the insight and resources! I have been trying to find ways to share these kinds of things with my wife without intimidating her or making her paranoid or tuning me out, saying that I am paranoid. Keep it coming!
 
From "Enter The Dragon" starring Bruce Lee.

Parsons: What's your style?
Lee: My style? You can call it the art of fighting without fighting.
Parsons: The art of fighting without fighting? Show me some of it.
Lee: Later.
[Parsons grabs Lees shoulder as he turns away]
Lee: Don't you think we need more room?
Parsons: Where else?
Lee: That island, on the beach. We can take this boat. :D

Best,
Rob
 
Lessons learned from growing up as the only person of my race in a rough neighborhood, and traveling to some of the worlds toilets:

1. Don't associate with stupid people, doing stupid things, in dangerous places. Especially if you are drunk. This takes care of most issues.

2. Go to rough neighborhoods in the morning. Troublemakers are generally not out at 9:00am.

3. If you are standing still, stand with your back to a wall so that you can see what is going on, and nobody can sneak up on you. If you are carrying a gun. This also prevents someone from seeing if you are printing, and/or grabbing your gun.

3. Stay in well populated/guarded areas. i.e. walk around to the front of the restaurant, instead of cutting through the back alleys.

4. In unsafe areas, keep an eye on people's eyes from a distance. If a couple of 20 somethings eye you up, converse, and then one tries to walk in a big circle to get behind you, walk into a restaurant, or back up to a wall and stare at him if you can't get away. Listen for running foot steps, and fast moving shadows.

5. Understand how different people will rob/attack you. A dishevled stinky drunken/drugged homeless guy is not going to sneak up on you and pick your pocket. A gypsy with her baby will.

6. When you stop at a red light, leave extra space in front of you so you can take off if necessary. And keep an eye on your blind spots.

7. If you get gently rear-ended from behind in a bad neighborhood, don't get out of the car. Pull over, leave space and the car running, so you can get away. Call the police.

8. Keep an eye on the areas BG's can come from.

9. If you have a problem, run scream and make as big of a scene as possible. So people pay attention, BG's hate attention.

10. Don't help suspicious people-trust your gut. If you live in suburbia and a random guy wants to use your bathroom, or your bicycle pump - tough.
 
I was taught and thus taught my children -

1 - direct eye contact with everyone

2 - stand tall (head up shoulders back), walk with purpose and pay attention to what is going on around you (I like to call this walking big)

3 - avoid going into areas that are questionable by yourself

4 - Probably the one that gets most: There is nothing lost by walking away from a situation... if you can. Pride and ego will get more into trouble than not.

It is my experience that direct eyecontact and walking big will keep most predators away (they are looking for sheep not sheep dogs) - do not make yourself an easy mark and you have already taken the first steps to win without fighting
 
Be aware of your surroundings.
Be prepared to be blunt and rude if your radar goes off.
Be polite to everyone you meet and have a plan to kill them if need be.
Stand Tall and Walk Confidently; you can do this even with a cane.
 
The following link shows video taken from a gas station where an Ohio citizen had to recently defend himself from a criminal and an accomplice.

http://fox.daytonsnewssource.com/shared/newsroom/raw_news/videos/vid_47.shtml

Location issues?
- Gas stations in "the ghetto" can definitely be a danger zone.
- Time of incident was after midnight, ie, past the witching / thug hour.

Uniform?
- Criminal was NOT wearing a business suit...go figure.
- If it's wearing a thug uniform....

Behavior issues?
- This thug was a complete stranger to the citizen.
- His behavior is NOT normal and should be assessed as the threat it turned out to be.

More often than not, the potential criminal will telegraph hostile intent in some way shape or form BEFORE they execute their attack. This criminal certainly did.

Look for the signs, recognize them, and act on them as necessary.
 
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