357 Magnum

ArchAngelCD said:

Why is it considered the best man stopper? Because statistics from shooting from all over the country for decades prove it to be. From what I've read it does the job better than any other caliber carried. BUT, like I said above, I like the .38 Special for SD and carry.

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That's only because thats a very commonly carried round. Like really how many people carry .500 s&w for SD?

In another league... 500:357

Well I guess when someone asks the same ?? you can expect to end up in the same place. 500 S&W PLEASE! Why not the 50 BMG? Or lets go all the way to the chain gun!

After this ? has gone thru countless threads [think 2 are active as we speak], it always seems that the answer lies in the beholder. The BEST is what you can shoot best and that is handy when you need it. Now if that takes you to a .25auto or a 4' turkey gun; you might want to rethink your situation. If you want to lug a 500 with say 12 or 15 extra rounds, then make sure you stop by the gym frequently.

Dear THR.
What are the advantages of 357 over a 9mm and 45acp? Are there any disadvantages?
The .357 is a faster moving round. A disadvantage would be recoil and
muzzle blast. Also the .357 is generally found in a revolver.

How effective is a 357 as a SD weapon?
Very effective.

Is 357 sufficient for self defense or a step up to a 44 magnum is a better decision? 10mm is not in consideration.
The .357 is more than sufficient. The .44 magnum is not a better
decision.

Thanks

Disadvantages of the 357 mag for SD???

I have to say there are three potential ones: over penetration, recoil, and muzzle blast; especially in small carry sized revolvers.

I personally am quite comfortable with 38spl +P. Nothing wrong with 9mm and 45 ACP for self defense.

For me; .357 when trail walking or in the field where there is the occasional fanged and clawed beasty; .45ACP in town for SD vs. the unruly 2 legged variant of the same.

The one gun I've owned since the early '70s and still have is my trusty old S&W model 28. I like long barreled .357s. They shoot almost like a rifle, have a long sight radius for accuracy, S&W triggers at least on my old one are silky smooth in DA and nicely light in SA. The 6" barrel isn't nasty firing like some of the shorter barreled revolvers. The recoil in the big N frame isn't much of anything, very easy on the hand, I could shoot a couple hundred in a sitting except I'd get tired reloading. The downside is it's a BIG revolver and would be a bear to carry concealed. As a SD weapon I'd prefer it to my .45ACP just because I've had it so long and fired it a lot over the years and it's never failed, not once. It's also a lot better to use as a bludgeon if someone gets too close. If you pistol whipped someone with this gun they'd know something hit them. My .45 is a polymer framed pistol that would be a pretty pitiful club in comparison.

The 357 mag is still the top tier personal defense caliber for social miscreants. One of the reasons I carry Remington's 125gr SJHP while traveling and staying in motels is that it doesn't over penetrate, same can be said for the Federal version. I haven't chronogrphed Federal's 125 gr JHP, but Remington's 125gr SJHP has met its advertised MV/1450fps out of a M686P/4" and Dan Wesson/4" and this factory ammunition chronogrphed 1625fps from a M686P/6".

My 'duplicate' handloads achieve 1560fps through a M686P/4" loaded with AA #9 and 2400 powders, neither loadings are max.

One of the advantages of putting up with the mag's muzzle/blast and recoil is because it's a dominating incapacitation caliber. The semi-jacketed 158gr hit the market in the late 60s, basically the semi-jacket was a fancy gas check designed to cut down on the 158gr lead RN bullet that caused serious leading issues. The mag had already established its reputation as a fight stopper long before the jacketed versions were issued. Our department issued Remington 158gr SJHPs and of the few OIS that I am/was aware of, no felons survived.

The Remington 125gr SJHP saw service around 1976 (mid 70s), but many departments/agencies continued to carry the 158gr into the 80s, the 158gr SJHP is the only weight I carried. At no time did I ever feel under gunned with the mag, even when the hi-cap 9s (S&W M39/59) began being issued to some departments. In all honesty, many of us felt sorry for the officers who carried the 9 and many of them didn't like it either.

If one chooses to carry carry the mag, or 1911 for that matter, there's a certain level of training one has to buck up to in order to become proficient with the platform. As an example, Indianapolis PD reported that in 200 OIS with well placed shots, no felons were able to return effective fire.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

I am also far from an expert. But I've owned a .357 for almost three years and have shot the heck out of it every chance I can get. So, getting that out of the way, here's what I have to add to what's already been said:

The first thing that comes to my mind when considering urban and suburban defense with the .357mag is over-penetration. There is a LOT of velocity goin' on there, which brings me to two uneducated assumptions. One is that shot placement is extra-important in regards to any potential (undesirable- with any caliber) missed shots, or even with hits the possibility of over-penetration if that's indeed a factor as i assume it is. The other is that a less heavy bullet with much velocity, such as .357 mag, could be more likely to ricochet or veer off in a wild direction if glanced off bone or steel etc. These two thoughts may not be true or entirely correct, they are thoughts that come to mind, and I would surely pay utmost attention to the more-experienced who can elaborate and enlighten.

When it comes to capacity, we can agree to disagree all day! I do think most would agree that six or eight absolutely dependable shots are more valuable than 15 that might jam after the first, but reloading could also be that moment that lets a threat get too close, thus the previous sentence!

Something I can certainly testify to is the CONCUSSION! The CRACK of a .357 going off, as most will already know, is like standing directly behind a tree that just got hit by lightning! It's pretty much the only caliber, including rifles, that I need plugs AND muffs to prevent a headache when shooting. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting .357 magnum very much! However in regards to noise, I find my 4" .44 mag more pleasant to shoot than my 6" .357, when firing off full-on magnum loads.

When carrying, I stick to .45acp and .44 mag, or sometimes .38 special these days (for my primary sidearm) after years of experimentation.
With the first two, I like that there is more mass to the energy equation, and with .38 special, well, what it might lack in 'power' it makes up for with ease of shot placement

Edit: I somehow forgot to read page 2 before posting

Sir Sloop that is a great photo, thanks for sharing it! I've seen ammo charts galore, and I think it's the human hand background that really puts those rounds into immediate proportion in that photo. I own .357s and have had the pleasure of shooting a .500 and to me that just immediately conveys the actual size of the cartridges to my brain. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that every time I show a less-experienced friend the size of a 7.62x54r round in the beginnings of the process of teaching them how to shoot my Mosin, I show it to them in their hand along with a .357 magnum round, and every time it's a .357 round. This due to that unique concussion I mentioned in my original post. Most of them have shot the .357 by that point, and are amazed by the difference in the sizes of the cartridges. This naturally causes them to approach the Mosin with respect, and as a result each has been consistently delighted with the lack of felt-recoil that the weight of the gun provides, once they've fired it

Also, I should have mentioned earlier in my post, that I confidently believe the .357 magnum could be a superb sidearm in a rural environment, and also in urban and suburban environments with sufficient knowledge and training.

Thanks for bearing with my run-on sentences, it's been a long day, but this is the part of the day when I get to enjoy the info-sharing of THR

.357 report is stout, especially from a shortie. 500 report from anything is absolutely thunderous!

7.62x54R vs 500? Hey I have a photos of that too

Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack. Whack.






(The sound of beating a dead horse.)

DanGuy48 said:

Probably the main thing that really catapulted the .357 Mag to stardom as a man stopper was Marshall and Sanow's study on that topic with the .357 Mag ending up with something like a 94or97% one shot stop efficiency (been a while since I read it). One shot stop was defined as taking no more than one additional step towards you or immediately breaking off attack activity on being shot.

http://www.amazon.com/Handgun-Stopping-Power-Definitive-Study/dp/0873646533

Yep, I'm aware of all the controversy around it but I think there's still some good data there.

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I love that book. I put a lot of stock in it. Real life (death) statistics.

Every shooter ought to read "Handgun Stopping Power".

Easy advantage of the .45 acp (even 9mm nowadays with the technological advances in ammunition) is it's a semi-auto platform vs. a 357 mag revolver (IMO). Now if they made a semi compact .357 mag (not 357 SIG) it would be a different story--10mm was supposed to close the gap but...

Yet for a lot of people a 357 mag revolver is entirely sufficient and I too have a tremendous fondness for them (magnificent caliber--I just want more capacity with the areas I navigate).

-Cheers

I'm certain it has been said but Shot placement to me is more important than caliber.
I shoot better with my 9mm Hi-Powers than I do with my .45 or my GP100.
I love the .357 round, I like the .45 round but I own them for different reasons than I do my HP's.
I have confidence in my abilities for the other guns, but I didn't buy them for Home Defense, I bought them for hunting and target shooting and have other guns I like to shoot with too. I will stick to the HP's for HD and carry.
For me the Bottom Line is this which are you most accurate with .357 or .45 or another caliber entirely?

Well let's really beat on this dh, speed is fine but accuracy is FINAL.

Well, I'm ACCURATE with my .357s. So, accurate power is even finaler...er...more final...whatever. Just because it's a MAGNUM don't mean it cannot be fired accurately. I've taken one hog at 60 yards with my .357 Blackhawk. The load is a fire-breather the likes of which no LGS sells, too. It's a handload.

I have a 3" carry that I took one hog with, 13 yard target of opportunity, head shot. I practice at an indoor range with it, but I'll admit to screwing my ear plugs in extra deep. My little Kel Tec P11 is enough and it's SOO much easier to have on me 24/7.

Accuracy is indeed important and my 6" barreled model 28 is accurate or at least the easiest pistol I own to shoot accurately except for my Buckmark with a holo sight. The long sight radius on the .370 with the excellent sights S&W put on it does the job. I only wish it was practical to carry the N framed beast concealed. If I could that would be my carry gun.

I have 3 357 revolvers that are large framed guns. Recoil is not an issue but noise is. My Smith and Wesson 627 has an 8 round capacity rivaling a 45 ACP but my reload is faster Witt a semiautomatic. As much as I love my revolvers, I'm more accurate, obviously, in single action with a 1911. For concealed carry, it is in a disadvantage to have a heavier gun since many have a hard time concealing a full sized 357, especially in the summer time.

The 357 is a solid round. Any other caliber in a bigger size risks over penetration. For handguns, I like to stick to duty pistols and 44 magnum is not in that genre for most.

For me, I'm versatile to carry and shoot any one of my pistols. Practicality is another matter.


iPad/Tapatalk

I have a 4 inch Mod. 19 Combat Magnum I won't ever part with. Wonderfully balanced, easy to shoot even fairly warm loads with. It's my field gun, loaded with a combo of snake shot and hard cast 140's or 158's. Occasionally it gets carried around town loaded with 148 gr. Silvertips or 158 gr. Norma hollowpoints.

I've worked E.R.'s for almost thirty years now. I've seen four GSW's from a .357. Two were center mass from LEO's---both dead on scene/dead on arrival. One was a mugging where the good guy took a round to the groin and hit the femoral artery. Bled out and died within two minutes of hitting the E.R. door. Another mugging victim took one to the stomach--he lived but the damage to his G.I. tract was extensive. So, yes, it is a very effective round, but it's not a gun that's real easy to conceal or carry.

In terms of power the .357 Mag. & .45 ACP are more powerful than the .9X19mm. The only real advantage the .9X19mm has over the other two are round capacity and less recoil. The .357 Mag. used in revolvers has the ability to shoot .38 Special loads as a bonus if desired.

Why is it considered the best man stopper? Because statistics from shooting from all over the country for decades prove it to be. From what I've read it does the job better than any other caliber carried. BUT, like I said above, I like the .38 Special for SD and carry.

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Perhaps it has better "one shot stop" statistics because the recoil and muzzle blast is so bad, the shooter only gets off one shot -- but that's enough.

I carry a .357 Magnum, but I keep it loaded with nasty .38 Special +P's. Usually 158 LSWCHP's, sometimes 148 DEWC's (also loaded +P), rarely 125 grain XTP-HP's. I'm OK with maybe needing 2 shots.

You knew it would not take long for the thread to develop into:

Caliber Wars

If the .357 is such an anemic round, any weight of bullet, why has it been the choice of shooters for so many years? Why has it been the angst of any caliber out there being shot today? Because it still works! I'd be safe in saying, most BG's shot with .357's aren't around to argue this point any longer, not trying to say, nor imply any other caliber hasn't had its share also, just a statistical fact. AND, as stated above in many remarks made, for HD rounds, +P .38's are also used in many varieties of .357 revolvers, just not wanting that extra "bang for the buck" inside the house. YMMV, but the .357 has its place, and my home has 3 of them.

In terms of power the .357 Mag. & .45 ACP are more powerful than the .9X19mm. The only real advantage the .9X19mm has over the other two are round capacity and less recoil.

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There is one HUGE advantage of a 14 ounce 11 shot 9x19....pocketability. If you're going to rely on a handgun for self defense, you'd dang sight better have it when you need it. Such is not the case with a big gun. I walk around the house with my 9, always have it, never leave home without it. No matter where I am or what I'm doing, I have my 9. Even in bed it's beside the bed. It produces 410 ft lbs from a 3" barrel. It's pretty impressive on trapped hogs, too. I trust it will do the job just fine.

The real hit with .357mag, as far as I'm concerned is the versatility. Any gun that can shoot .357mag can also shoot .38spl, for low cost, low recoil, fun range time.

a good .38spl +P can also serve as an adequate self defense round. Once again, even in merely .38spl guise, we see a lot of versatility from 110gr. low recoil SD rounds, to 158 gr. Semiwadcutter +p rounds designed for deep penetration as a "woods gun."

Then we get into the meat and potatoes here. The mighty .357mag. It can be loaded to .38spl type velocities (ie. the Speer Gold Dot short barrel 135gr. load that doesn't even break 1000fps), all the way up to loads like the 158gr. hollow points that Buffalo Bore and Double tap load to get 1400fps out of a 4" bbl revolver. You can even get 200gr. lead slugs for sooooper deep penetration. So with one platform, you can shoot loads as light as 110gr. all the way up to 200gr. Of course, being a revolver, you don't have to worry about failures to function due to variances in pressures, velocities, bullet weights or shapes, etc...

Now, of course, the other wonderful thing is that you can get a .357mag lever or bolt action carbine that not only has all the same versatility as the revolvers, it has even more because its top end is so much higher. that same 158gr. load that can do 1400 fps out of a 4" bbl revolver is doing over 2000fps out of the 18" bbl of a carbine. The velocity does drop off rather quickly, so I'd want to keep shots at around 75yards or under, but it's perfectly doable. With the new Hornady LeverEvolution ammo, you could even take that out to around 125 yards. We're nipping at the heels of the .30-30 at this point.

I realize that .45acp also can be loaded into various PCCs but it does not see gains anywhere near the level that the .357mag does.

So in the end, the .357mag can be an appropriate chambering and loading for anything from a pocket gun, to close range deer rifle and everything in between.
That versatility, to me, is the magic of the .357mag.
If I could only have guns chambered for one cartridge for the rest of my life, the .357mag would be it.

What are the advantages of 357 over a 9mm and 45acp? Are there any disadvantages?

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I think 20-30 years ago, there was a clear performance advantage to the .357 over the 9mm or 45ACP. Now, with modern bullet designs I don't think the difference is nearly as great as it was. IMO nowadays any of the three will provide good SD service.

Now, as far as the guns they are chambered in, a semiauto in 9mm/45ACP is going to have more shots per load, and be easier and faster to load. Some people also find flat semiautos easier to conceal than fatter revolvers.

A .357 revolver is arguable more reliable than a semiauto, and some people are more comfortable carrying a loaded revolver than a loaded semiauto.

In the end, much of it just comes down to personal preference.

How effective is a 357 as a SD weapon?

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Very effective. It's a well proven round in both police and civilian hands.

Is 357 sufficient for self defense or a step up to a 44 magnum is a better decision?

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The .357 is more than "sufficent" and I think stepping "up" to the .44Mag would be a mistake. There is more to a good SD gun than pure numbers. While the .44Mag has more pure power, its also generally chambered in larger guns (harder to conceal), has more recoil (slower follow up shots) and arguably exceeds the optimum handgun performance. Of course, lots of people like the .44 Special as a SD round, but this is more of a step... "sideways" than "up" in performance.