ducktapehero
Member
There are 2 theories to handgun stopping power. "Small and fast" and "slow and heavy". Might as well have the best of both worlds. 
.45 and .357
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
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Rob96
Member
Not only that, if a revolver jams up, it's locked up. At least with the auto, you can do the tap, rack, bang drill.
Vern Humphrey
Member
We've had a lot of posts in this forum about revolvers packing up -- broken transfer bars, bolt stops, and so on, along with bullets creeping out of the case, primers backing out, crud under the ejector star, and so on.
It's no accident that virtually all armies now use automatics -- and that even elite units which can pick any weapon they want don't pick revolvers.
It's no accident that virtually all armies now use automatics -- and that even elite units which can pick any weapon they want don't pick revolvers.
The way that I see it, they're all great calibers but the bigger issues is,what do you want to do with them? I'm a reloader; therefore, I have the luxury of creating a wide variety of of ammo for the different calibers. As far as favorite calibers, my top three is: .357; 10MM and .45
Without getting into the specifics of grains and bullet weights, I'm very accurate with my S&W 686 .357 Magnum. Personally, I can shoot that gun all day. The 10MM, in my opinion is superior to the .45 (if your ammo is made properly). Again, I'm more accurate and it hits harder.
I have 2 .45's S&W 4516 and CZ 97. As far as reloading, I think that the .45 caliber is more difficult to make than any other round that I've tried.
For defense, If I'm ever in a gun fight, I would prefer the 10MM over the .45 any day of the week.
Without getting into the specifics of grains and bullet weights, I'm very accurate with my S&W 686 .357 Magnum. Personally, I can shoot that gun all day. The 10MM, in my opinion is superior to the .45 (if your ammo is made properly). Again, I'm more accurate and it hits harder.
I have 2 .45's S&W 4516 and CZ 97. As far as reloading, I think that the .45 caliber is more difficult to make than any other round that I've tried.
For defense, If I'm ever in a gun fight, I would prefer the 10MM over the .45 any day of the week.
ducktapehero
Member
I heard that SEALs will sometimes use a Smith 357 if the mission is expected to be in a nasty environment. If I'm wrong don't castrate me.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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I heard that SEALs will sometimes use a Smith 357 if the mission is expected to be in a nasty environment. If I'm wrong don't castrate me.
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I've not heard that -- although a SEAL might choose such a handgun for some reason or other. "Nasty environment" to a SEAL usually involves passing through the surf zone, which would not be good for a revolver.
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I heard that SEALs will sometimes use a Smith 357 if the mission is expected to be in a nasty environment. If I'm wrong don't castrate me.
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I've not heard that -- although a SEAL might choose such a handgun for some reason or other. "Nasty environment" to a SEAL usually involves passing through the surf zone, which would not be good for a revolver.
I own and like both the .45 ACP and .357 Mag platforms. In fact, the handguns I started out with were one each of those chamberings. These days I prefer shooting the non-magnum big bores over the .357, but I still think it is a great choice for many purposes.
I have several auto-loaders in .45 ACP as well as a S&W 625, which is a great revolver to shoot. I also enjoy shooting .44 Special and it has become more versatile with some of the currently available commercial loads.
I keep my .357 Mag revolvers now mainly because of my Marlin 1894C lever gun. The .357 really shines in a carbine, and since it is the rifle I shoot most often I just think having at least one matching revolver is a good thing.
I have several auto-loaders in .45 ACP as well as a S&W 625, which is a great revolver to shoot. I also enjoy shooting .44 Special and it has become more versatile with some of the currently available commercial loads.
I keep my .357 Mag revolvers now mainly because of my Marlin 1894C lever gun. The .357 really shines in a carbine, and since it is the rifle I shoot most often I just think having at least one matching revolver is a good thing.
rockstar.esq
Member
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- Dec 9, 2004
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- 1,475
I too have wondered about this duplicity of reason. I think the main reason the .357 revolver is so popular is that it represents the upper limit of snort and snuff from a concealable sized gun. The cylinder size of a .40+ sized chamber becomes somewhat ungainly. The 1911 however is a flat and mostly inoffensively shaped gun when you imagine it pressed against your side. Other than these characteristics, you're back to the same old arguement of icepick or sledgehammer. I have a .44 mag revolver which shares the .357's ability to serve as a "dual caliber" gun and I find that easy shooting .44 special loads are lots of fun. But for making furry things dead, I prefer the full house loads.
OTOH, the application is different with armies than with a personal defense weapon. Armies have other armed people close by to neutralize a threat. Personal defense means you might be there all by yourself with no backup. An auto does require more maintenance, is more vulnerable to the vagaries of mag springs and lips, lubrication, carbon fouling, etc. Plus you've got to stay on top of the manual of arms for an auto. Where is the safety, do I pull the hammer back or rack the slide first? A revo can sit in a drawer or carried daily and be good to go in .05 seconds. Aim, squeeze and bang.
The revolver hung on for quite a while in a very serious military--ours.
When we didn't have enough 1911 autos to go around in the trenches of France in WWI, Colt and S&W stepped up with the M1917 revolver in .45ACP. There aren't any historical horror stories about them.
The Smith Model 10 M&P hung on well into the 1980s until the M9 & M11 replaced everything but some elite units' 1911A1s. I remember them being issued to flight crews and saw them on the Air Police guards at the gates of Hickam AFB in Hawaii. No SAO ND problem with those revolvers is my personal theory about why they were still in use that late in the day.
Then again, how could an auto as excellent as the 1911 not replace most revolvers in US service? That particular pistol is that good.
Looking abroad, when one surveys the revolvers that most of them had, one I daresay, would almost rather have almost any autopistol instead. Nevertheless, the British Webleys were common in WW2 and everyone else's service revolvers were so gawdawful that their pre-WW2 replacement by the High Power, Lugers, and Walthers was all but inevitable. I am almost certain that the Soviets were using anything that banged given their extreme circumstances between 1942-43.
When we didn't have enough 1911 autos to go around in the trenches of France in WWI, Colt and S&W stepped up with the M1917 revolver in .45ACP. There aren't any historical horror stories about them.
The Smith Model 10 M&P hung on well into the 1980s until the M9 & M11 replaced everything but some elite units' 1911A1s. I remember them being issued to flight crews and saw them on the Air Police guards at the gates of Hickam AFB in Hawaii. No SAO ND problem with those revolvers is my personal theory about why they were still in use that late in the day.
Then again, how could an auto as excellent as the 1911 not replace most revolvers in US service? That particular pistol is that good.
Looking abroad, when one surveys the revolvers that most of them had, one I daresay, would almost rather have almost any autopistol instead. Nevertheless, the British Webleys were common in WW2 and everyone else's service revolvers were so gawdawful that their pre-WW2 replacement by the High Power, Lugers, and Walthers was all but inevitable. I am almost certain that the Soviets were using anything that banged given their extreme circumstances between 1942-43.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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OTOH, the application is different with armies than with a personal defense weapon. Armies have other armed people close by to neutralize a threat. Personal defense means you might be there all by yourself with no backup. An auto does require more maintenance, is more vulnerable to the vagaries of mag springs and lips, lubrication, carbon fouling, etc. Plus you've got to stay on top of the manual of arms for an auto. Where is the safety, do I pull the hammer back or rack the slide first? A revo can sit in a drawer or carried daily and be good to go in .05 seconds. Aim, squeeze and bang.
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Let me take this up from experience. My first tour in Vietnam, I brought two personally-owned weapons, a M1911 (not an A1) with a little customization, and a Colt Model 357. I mostly carried the .357 and used it seriously twice. My second tour, I carried an issue M1911A1. I also saw a lot of .38 Special S&Ws carried mostly by aviation types.
Generally, revolvers faired worse than automatics in a combat environment. In the case of my OWN revolver, of course I babied it -- something Joe Tentpeg is unlikely to do with his issue sidearm.
The shortcomings of automatics are matched by the shortcomings of revolvers -- for example, a backed out primer will not tie up an M1911, nor will a bullet that jumps crimp under repeated recoil. An M1911 will shrug off the amount of crud and grit that will take a revolver out of action (especially if it gets into places like the ejector star.)
Manual of arms issues are critical only if you are untrained, or handle a bewildering variety of handguns. Yes, it takes a bit more training to handle an automatic (although I would argue it takes more training and practice to shoot a revolver double-action in a combat or defensive situation.)
And you can leave a loaded automatic OR a loaded revolver in a drawer for years -- either will function when pulled out. And people have carried automatics daily for years (I've carried one for over 40 years on that basis) and they shoot just fine.
When arguing which is best in theory, we have to take into account the environment (the scenario in a theory.) When we plug in a realistic environment or scenario, the automatic seems to fare better -- which is why the revolver is not nearly as popular in either armies or police forces these days.
There are plenty of uses for revolvers -- I actually own more revolvers than automatics -- but I don't claim they have more reliability than an automatic.
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OTOH, the application is different with armies than with a personal defense weapon. Armies have other armed people close by to neutralize a threat. Personal defense means you might be there all by yourself with no backup. An auto does require more maintenance, is more vulnerable to the vagaries of mag springs and lips, lubrication, carbon fouling, etc. Plus you've got to stay on top of the manual of arms for an auto. Where is the safety, do I pull the hammer back or rack the slide first? A revo can sit in a drawer or carried daily and be good to go in .05 seconds. Aim, squeeze and bang.
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Let me take this up from experience. My first tour in Vietnam, I brought two personally-owned weapons, a M1911 (not an A1) with a little customization, and a Colt Model 357. I mostly carried the .357 and used it seriously twice. My second tour, I carried an issue M1911A1. I also saw a lot of .38 Special S&Ws carried mostly by aviation types.
Generally, revolvers faired worse than automatics in a combat environment. In the case of my OWN revolver, of course I babied it -- something Joe Tentpeg is unlikely to do with his issue sidearm.
The shortcomings of automatics are matched by the shortcomings of revolvers -- for example, a backed out primer will not tie up an M1911, nor will a bullet that jumps crimp under repeated recoil. An M1911 will shrug off the amount of crud and grit that will take a revolver out of action (especially if it gets into places like the ejector star.)
Manual of arms issues are critical only if you are untrained, or handle a bewildering variety of handguns. Yes, it takes a bit more training to handle an automatic (although I would argue it takes more training and practice to shoot a revolver double-action in a combat or defensive situation.)
And you can leave a loaded automatic OR a loaded revolver in a drawer for years -- either will function when pulled out. And people have carried automatics daily for years (I've carried one for over 40 years on that basis) and they shoot just fine.
When arguing which is best in theory, we have to take into account the environment (the scenario in a theory.) When we plug in a realistic environment or scenario, the automatic seems to fare better -- which is why the revolver is not nearly as popular in either armies or police forces these days.
There are plenty of uses for revolvers -- I actually own more revolvers than automatics -- but I don't claim they have more reliability than an automatic.
Black Snowman
Member
I'm not that guy I like big bores. After doing much research and looking into the information on the subject places like here and here my criteria for a "good round" changed quite a bit.
I sold my Taurus 669 6" 357 so I could buy a Taurus 455 Ti in .45 ACP. My 669 was, and still is, a great gun and a great shooter but I wanted something that made a bigger hole.
I also sold off my only 9mm. If I get another it will be purely a range gun. For a handgun I choose the biggest round I can get in the platform I use well. Right now that means my CZ 85 Compact in .40 S&W. I'd rather have .45 ACP +P or 10mm but I don't shoot the guns I have in those calibers as well as I do the CZ so it wins.
My priorties for a defensive weapon:
1) Reliability
2) Placement
3) Penetration
4) Everything else is gravy.
I like big bores. After doing much research and looking into the information on the subject places like here and here my criteria for a "good round" changed quite a bit.I sold my Taurus 669 6" 357 so I could buy a Taurus 455 Ti in .45 ACP. My 669 was, and still is, a great gun and a great shooter but I wanted something that made a bigger hole.
I also sold off my only 9mm. If I get another it will be purely a range gun. For a handgun I choose the biggest round I can get in the platform I use well. Right now that means my CZ 85 Compact in .40 S&W. I'd rather have .45 ACP +P or 10mm but I don't shoot the guns I have in those calibers as well as I do the CZ so it wins.
My priorties for a defensive weapon:
1) Reliability
2) Placement
3) Penetration
4) Everything else is gravy.
Wound ballistics tables and theory are interesting, and I've read them til my eyes bled. They are also somewhat inconclusive. Bullets do strange things. We all agree shot placement is #1, and COM is the target. If you create an entrance AND an exit wound COM, you've likely also punctured a lung and created a 'pneumothorax' effect; the person shot cannot draw a breath. That alone should end the fight real quick. Not to mention blood pressure drop.
Some say a bullet should stop inside the target, thereby dumping all its energy; others say an exit wound, 'two holes for the price of one' is more effective.
Some say a bullet should stop inside the target, thereby dumping all its energy; others say an exit wound, 'two holes for the price of one' is more effective.
Easy answer.
While I really like my 1917 Colt .45 ACP revolver, its cylinder is a half inch wider than my 6 shot .357 Magnum Carry.
You cab put six rounds of .357 into a much smaller package than 6 of .44/45.
Mind you I prefer shooting the big 1917, even with its pre-war grip gap and heavy wieght, makes it a pussycat. Now a FACTORY chopped "Fitz" Special will only set you back few grand, and is about about as ugly as a weapon can get. But a lot of 'serious' folks carried those big bore Fitzed revolvers.
Shooting full house .357's out of that Magnum Carry is a little spooky... feels like the trigger will cut your finger. These days you can get a svelte Scandium or Ti revolver that makes my little Colt seem like a brick.
Both are GOOD calibers. The .357 is a really versatile platform, if your wheel gun and you are up to the task.
It's not that we don't like big bores, but they do have some limitations.
While I really like my 1917 Colt .45 ACP revolver, its cylinder is a half inch wider than my 6 shot .357 Magnum Carry.
You cab put six rounds of .357 into a much smaller package than 6 of .44/45.
Mind you I prefer shooting the big 1917, even with its pre-war grip gap and heavy wieght, makes it a pussycat. Now a FACTORY chopped "Fitz" Special will only set you back few grand, and is about about as ugly as a weapon can get. But a lot of 'serious' folks carried those big bore Fitzed revolvers.
Shooting full house .357's out of that Magnum Carry is a little spooky... feels like the trigger will cut your finger. These days you can get a svelte Scandium or Ti revolver that makes my little Colt seem like a brick.
Both are GOOD calibers. The .357 is a really versatile platform, if your wheel gun and you are up to the task.
It's not that we don't like big bores, but they do have some limitations.
I own a 357 revolver and i'm glad for the 38/357 interchangability. I've also wanted a 45 but i went for the 357 because i'd bought the same for my wife (her first and only defense weapon) which i bought for many reasons including simplicity, reliability, stopping power, and interchangibility.
Oddly, i knew they existed but never thought to buy a 45 revolver. Now i want one of those too.
I've avoided the 45 auto because of the cost of the ones that i want (colt,kimber) and the rumor that the glocks are blowing up.
I wanted a 10mm delta they first came out when i was younger but i talked myself out of it in my youth. I still don't know whether i made the right choice but i still sure would like to have one of those also.
Oddly, i knew they existed but never thought to buy a 45 revolver. Now i want one of those too.
I've avoided the 45 auto because of the cost of the ones that i want (colt,kimber) and the rumor that the glocks are blowing up.
I wanted a 10mm delta they first came out when i was younger but i talked myself out of it in my youth. I still don't know whether i made the right choice but i still sure would like to have one of those also.
Ivy Mike
Member
I have always been of the belief that bigger is better...bigger magazine that is. 
Make mine double stack 9mm or .40. I'll add 10mm to that list after the holidays.
That being said, I'd have no problem carrying a .45auto or .357mag provided it was reliable AND the only thing I had. I made due with my Makarov in .380 for quite some time as my sole carry gun. She went bang every time and I was fairly accurate with it. That is the key my friends.
Put the rounds where they do the most good.
Make mine double stack 9mm or .40. I'll add 10mm to that list after the holidays.
That being said, I'd have no problem carrying a .45auto or .357mag provided it was reliable AND the only thing I had. I made due with my Makarov in .380 for quite some time as my sole carry gun. She went bang every time and I was fairly accurate with it. That is the key my friends.
Put the rounds where they do the most good.
I can trace it back to my father's influence. He always told me trust your life to either the .357 or the 45acp. During his 23 year career as a cop he carried the S&W M28, M65 and finally the S&W 4516. I was a kid and I looked up to my dad (still do). Now I'm a cop and I carry the Sig 220 in 45. It's a good round and it works. No it isn't perfect, but it's a proven performer. I wouldn't have any problem with carrying my 686+ as my duty weapon either. The round also has a proven history.
Now I own mostly 45's and .357 revolvers not only because I prefer them, but also because of economics. I reload 45 and I can get 38 special ammo for a very reasonable price. Isn't it nice that the .357 shoots the 38?
I've played with the idea of getting a 44 but I don't hunt or shoot shilloutte and ultimately it dosen't hold my interest like the .357 or 45. However I do own a Hi-Power just because I've always liked that model. Plus the 9mm is pretty affordable as well.
Now I own mostly 45's and .357 revolvers not only because I prefer them, but also because of economics. I reload 45 and I can get 38 special ammo for a very reasonable price. Isn't it nice that the .357 shoots the 38?
I've played with the idea of getting a 44 but I don't hunt or shoot shilloutte and ultimately it dosen't hold my interest like the .357 or 45. However I do own a Hi-Power just because I've always liked that model. Plus the 9mm is pretty affordable as well.
mack69
Member
Re:
I'm one of those!!! My 2 favorite guns are my Ruger GP100 4 inch 357 and my Dan Wesson PMA-S 45... Superbly accurate, fun and cheap to shoot. Proven calibers for all purposes needed. Regarding why the 357?? Though I love big guns...I don't feel the need to hurt myself with something else. And I can very comfortably and accurately shoot either the 45 or 357 from a dead sleep. mack
I'm one of those!!! My 2 favorite guns are my Ruger GP100 4 inch 357 and my Dan Wesson PMA-S 45... Superbly accurate, fun and cheap to shoot. Proven calibers for all purposes needed. Regarding why the 357?? Though I love big guns...I don't feel the need to hurt myself with something else. And I can very comfortably and accurately shoot either the 45 or 357 from a dead sleep. mack
shermacman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,751
Allegedly, mack69 said:
"And I can very comfortably and accurately shoot either the 45 or 357 from a dead sleep."
I am sure that there are more details to follow!
"And I can very comfortably and accurately shoot either the 45 or 357 from a dead sleep."
I am sure that there are more details to follow!
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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"And I can very comfortably and accurately shoot either the 45 or 357 from a dead sleep."
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That would explain the bullet holes in the bedroom ceiling.
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"And I can very comfortably and accurately shoot either the 45 or 357 from a dead sleep."
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That would explain the bullet holes in the bedroom ceiling.
moxie
Member
The S7W and Colt M1917s and S&W 625s have been mentioned for shooting .45 ACP if you like that round and like revolvers too. I love my 625, but it is too big for concealiblility and really for all day carry. But as a house gun and fun for target shooting it can't be beat.
If you like the .357 but are a die-hard auto fan, no has mentioned the Coonan .357 auto. Based on the 1911, it was a wonderful pistol but is, alas, out of production.
If you like the .357 but are a die-hard auto fan, no has mentioned the Coonan .357 auto. Based on the 1911, it was a wonderful pistol but is, alas, out of production.
Smythe77
Member
Here in Canada all we civies can do with h/guns is target shoot. So natch a .22 like High Standard Victor or Trophy are to my liking though I like the few S&W 41s some of our members have.
Now into center-fire that is where I like my two Full House PPC revolvers of 38Spl for with all the mods done to them THEY is darn accurate. Be it with 148 gr WC or anthing from 150 to 162gr SWC.
Still I have two Custom make Browning Action 45s. One made by the pistolsmith & second one again made by him only to my specs. Deadly accuracy & like one chap back a bit mentioned using a cast 185gr SWC to 200 to 230 grn.
Fact is I have the idea to have the same pistolsmith churn out ANOTHER 45 for me though do not have it all figured out what I want in all parts & how I want the gun made though my two PPC revolvers & two 45s have proven to be trouble free for far longer then one would expect & are used constantly two days a week & of every week of the year.
Now into center-fire that is where I like my two Full House PPC revolvers of 38Spl for with all the mods done to them THEY is darn accurate. Be it with 148 gr WC or anthing from 150 to 162gr SWC.
Still I have two Custom make Browning Action 45s. One made by the pistolsmith & second one again made by him only to my specs. Deadly accuracy & like one chap back a bit mentioned using a cast 185gr SWC to 200 to 230 grn.
Fact is I have the idea to have the same pistolsmith churn out ANOTHER 45 for me though do not have it all figured out what I want in all parts & how I want the gun made though my two PPC revolvers & two 45s have proven to be trouble free for far longer then one would expect & are used constantly two days a week & of every week of the year.
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