AG Holder held in Criminal Contempt

Well, hopefully justice is served in this case.
Hopefully the government will be forced to reign in the loose cannon that is the ATF, and they will force the ATF have some accountability for once.

You can call Mexico whatever you wish but I have seen enough of it to forbid any of my family to set foot across that border, my son says Uncle Sugar won't let him go there. They seem to like to bury folks in mass graves and do a little beheading to keep the peasants in line. If you think cops in the US are a PITA get hooked up in the legal system down there, your family will go broke getting you back.
If this and much more isn't worth securing against then all you have to do is head south to paradise.

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I'll bet that most people educated in Mexican schools can correctly identify First, Second and Third world countries.

I guess ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Indicating lack of knowledge ? I didnt get that.

I got alot of stuttering and dancing aroung via holder in those pages. Didnt you see that ? Heck, was written ver-batem. I keep hearing as also stated by another member in another post.. "I am not a crook!" (jowels flappin and all). Im sure they have the fall guy already in place if need be.

Holders anti-gun agenda has been long acknowleged, by his words and his actions. Cant wait to get to the real meat of this subject, all we are getting now is teasers and tickles of warm fuzziness.

Now back to executive privilige, why would Holder cry to Obama to lock it down if all the good stuff has already been released ? Any assumptions yet ? Ive got a few shared with others...but they are just assumptions as of now.

Anywho, Its gonna be good if they think we as American people will let this die without knowing the whole truth. Any assumptions on Holders deny, dely and lock down strategy ?

5 days is not timely.... especially with huge allegations. One day, two days...tops. Must have taken them 5 days to crap a good story and backcheck it before claiming ignorance.

CAVHOOAH said:

Indicating lack of knowledge ? I didnt get that.

I got alot of stuttering and dancing aroung via holder in those pages. Didnt you see that ? Heck, was written ver-batem. I keep hearing as also stated by another member in another post.. "I am not a crook!" (jowels flappin and all). Im sure they have the fall guy already in place if need be.



Now back to executive privilige, why would Holder cry to Obama to lock it down if all the good stuff has already been released ? Any assumptions yet ? Ive got a few shared with others...but they are just assumptions as of now.

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I particularly liked the part where Dem. Rep. Cummings got slapped down by Issa for lying.

I remember seeing on C-Span when Holder tried to explain why he had lied -oops! presented false information to Congress. I believe that much of it is available on YouTube. His explanation, was at best, unconvincing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nssa3wqDBwM

I am not sure they have a fall guy picked out yet, I think it may go too high up for there to be a politically acceptable fall guy, at least not before the November elections.

The Congressional record can be accessed directly on the internet back to 1989. It makes fascinating reading if you have the stomach to wade through a lot of B.S. Just be aware that the record does not necessarily match what you see on C-Span, as the members can "correct or extend" their remarks.

That's fantastic! Hope something more comes of it.

CAVHOOAH said:

Indicating lack of knowledge ? I didnt get that.

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It's rather explicit in the transcript regarding who is implicated as being privy to the operational details as a matter of the T-III request process: A deputy of the Assistant Attorney General of the Criminal Division of the DoJ.

Now back to executive privilige, why would Holder cry to Obama to lock it down if all the good stuff has already been released ? Any assumptions yet ? Ive got a few shared with others...but they are just assumptions as of now.

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There's the assumption that because Obama has covered internal communications after February 2011, that there is evidence of wrong doing by Obama. This takes advantage of the assumptions that some have made that Obama was directly orchestrating OF&F, despite the lack of evidence for such as described by Issa.(http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...tisan-contempt-vote-against-holder-this-week/)

It's an ingenious methodology when observed from the strategic view. They just need to request information which would never be available to them under normal circumstances(the communication processes of the executive branch when responding to the legislative). If the president uses executive privilege, they can make the claim that the evidence that they imagine must be contained in the protected paperwork and use that to prop up a position that Obama must have been behind it. From the looks of it, that strategy was successful. If the paperwork is released, they have successfully fished for their target. Even if nothing is produced from the released documents, they can still throw the red meat to their constituents with the conspiratorial platitude that "the shredders must have been working over time" to gloss over the absence of evidence.

5 days is not timely.... especially with huge allegations. One day, two days...tops. Must have taken them 5 days to crap a good story and backcheck it before claiming ignorance.

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We've already presupposed that all high-ranking officials in the DoJ belong to a shared hive mind in which the deputies of the Assistant Attorney General of an agency under the DoJ share complete perception all the way up to Obama. With such conspiratorial capabilities, it would take one day, two day tops to fake a story, if they hadn't already planned out the story well beforehand.

Neverwinter, I do enjoy listening to your opinions...although its yet to be seen what actually is going on here. Obama and his crew...must go...that much I know factually. Wonder what hes hiding, and why should our government hide anything from the people who employ them ? This must be that great "transparent" government he sold some on in his BS campaign. No taxes for the middle class ? Hmmm...healthcare. Thats not a duck..."quack"..no really thats bob, I swear..."quack"... lol. Holder came from commieville chicago right from the right hip of obama, wich means he smells of Obama armpit sweat and it sure does stink.

Got anything new ? or are you just letting me bring in all the meat to the table for you do disect ? Playing your cards like Holder..."we didnt allow guns south"....11 months later "oh, you know what information now?"..."what I meant to say was we did allow guns to head south".....Theres a generall consensus here in this forum and others like it.... some are a round peg. Got anything youd like to bring up other than trying to discredit the obvious ? I dont buy it.


One more thing to remember, the more they try to make it complex, the more simple really is. Talk is just that...talk. lets see what the cards have in store for this group after the papers are released... Im betting there are quite a few agendas that were in the works...as stated by Issa, another AWB or such was being kicked around in these emails....due to all the american guns heading south...lol. If that alone doesnt tell you the scum we are dealing with....common sense is not in your vocabulary.

Not sure how anyone loving firearms and the security the afford us could even stand to look at a picture of these whale turds...much less TRY to defend them ? WOW

Not many reasons not to release exonerating documents.

Just like a suspect who invokes his rights because talking will be harmful, or testifying will be harmful... (yes I realize that cannot be used against him in a court of law...) But...

Makes you wonder what the coverup is.

There's the assumption that because Obama has covered internal communications after February 2011, that there is evidence of wrong doing by Obama. This takes advantage of the assumptions that some have made that Obama was directly orchestrating OF&F, despite the lack of evidence for such as described by Issa.(http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...der-this-week/)

It's an ingenious methodology when observed from the strategic view. They just need to request information which would never be available to them under normal circumstances(the communication processes of the executive branch when responding to the legislative). If the president uses executive privilege, they can make the claim that the evidence that they imagine must be contained in the protected paperwork and use that to prop up a position that Obama must have been behind it. From the looks of it, that strategy was successful. If the paperwork is released, they have successfully fished for their target. Even if nothing is produced from the released documents, they can still throw the red meat to their constituents with the conspiratorial platitude that "the shredders must have been working over time" to gloss over the absence of evidence.

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But all of this could have been avoided if they never tried to hide the information in the first place (and then present false information...and then lie about that). Executive privilege was never intended to be used for this sort of thing anyways. It would be used to hide communications between the president and his top advisers for the interest of national security, etc. Since he played that card, it immediately puts scrutiny on him and he knew it would. He's not going to go out of his way to hide nothing. It's just human nature to think there's something wrong when someone his hiding something. Maybe he's hiding it to protect himself...maybe he's hiding it to protect Holder...who knows. Generally people don't hide things that show what a great job they did. It doesn't take Issa or Fox News to tell you that it's suspicious....it's just plain suspicious period.

CAVHOOAH said:

Neverwinter,
Got anything new ? or are you just letting me bring in all the meat to the table for you do disect ? Playing your cards like Holder..."we didnt allow guns south"....11 months later "oh, you know what information now?"..."what I meant to say was we did allow guns to head south".....Theres a generall consensus here in this forum and others like it.... some are a round peg. Got anything youd like to bring up other than trying to discredit the obvious ? I dont buy it.

common sense is not in your vocabulary.

Not sure how anyone loving firearms and the security the afford us could even stand to look at a picture of these whale turds...much less TRY to defend them ? WOW

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<deleted>


The request for documents is limited to find out why Holder lied, OOPS! misinformed Congress, not unfortunately the wider picture of who ordered and approved the gun walking. There is however, some reason to believe those requested documents will reveal who knew what and when. Which may be why the resistance to the subpena.

CAVHOOAH said:

Neverwinter, I do enjoy listening to your opinions...although its yet to be seen what actually is going on here. Obama and his crew...must go...that much I know factually. Wonder what hes hiding, and why should our government hide anything from the people who employ them ? This must be that great "transparent" government he sold some on in his BS campaign.

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If that's true, then we shouldn't have any problems releasing our troop movements to our citizens, since we employ them. There's a reason not to expose basic operational details, especially if releasing them reduces the ability to function. This is true whether we're talking about troop movements, or the process by which the executive responds to the legislative.

Got anything new ? or are you just letting me bring in all the meat to the table for you do disect ? Playing your cards like Holder..."we didnt allow guns south"....11 months later "oh, you know what information now?"..."what I meant to say was we did allow guns to head south".....Theres a generall consensus here in this forum and others like it.... some are a round peg. Got anything youd like to bring up other than trying to discredit the obvious ? I dont buy it.

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You just discussed the timeline from an article that I linked, so I'm not sure what your contention regarding sources is here.

With regard to consensus, that's not necessarily a fact based process. If one is to start out with the preconception that there was a conspiracy involving a branch of government from the personnel laterally transferred all the way up to the president, I would have to agree that none of the information available would dispel that preconception. Then again, even if the documents currently covered by executive privilege are released and found not to have any culpatory evidence, the consensus would hardly be changed. Look at the rumblings in another thread,

Risky said:

And any documents that would be damaging will be destroyed before they're ever released or forced to be turned over. Its simply the way of Washington so no one should get their hopes up that any real justice comes out of this.

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. The excuses for why the lack of evidence only makes their preconceptions stronger have already been prepared. It's the reason that we still have people who believe our president is Kenyan despite two birth certificate releases.

as stated by Issa, another AWB or such was being kicked around in these emails....due to all the american guns heading south...lol. If that alone doesnt tell you the scum we are dealing with....common sense is not in your vocabulary.

Not sure how anyone loving firearms and the security the afford us could even stand to look at a picture of these whale turds...much less TRY to defend them ? WOW

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I'm going to quote Nushif on this:

Here's my issue with this notion of operation F&F being done solely to tighten gun control in the US.

While there was the chance that these guns imported into Mexico by the US government would be used in crimes and then would receive national attention, the reliability of this plan leaves a lot to be desired.
If we can't reliably track where they go, what makes us think we can reliably track which crime they will be used for? How do I know the cartel won't simply sell the nicely brand-spankin-new M4 for profit, grab themselves three UZIs and call it good? Let's face it, it makes no sense to rely on a criminal cartel to do your conspiracy work for you.

Let's face it, if I were an anti gun president, and I wanted to slap a big ol' high profile case up there to tighten up laws I'd reach for a solution that relies less on a Mexican drug cartel and more on assets I could you know ... actually control.

I do think we have to apply Occam's Razor here. And Occam's Razor tells me it is much, much, more likely that it simply was just an incredibly ridiculous plot to track some weapons to a potential kingpin and then to nail him than it is the conspiracy of a president busy with all kinds of other problems to tighten gun laws, of all things.

I'm not gonna sit here and say the executive and legislative here is innocent, but pinning some high end conspiracy with more plot twists than your average Jack Bauer show seems at least mildly delusional to me when there is the very, very easy explanation that it was just a really dumb idea that somehow made it through the system, got funding and then got assigned to someone dumb enough to want to execute it.

I know when it comes to blaming antis we ascribe to them a lot of sinister motives and endless resources, alongside the willpower and infrastructure to do absolutely anything up to and including influence in NATO circles, but let's face it ... gun control isn't popular and it is very, very much more likely that it was just an incredibly dumb plan.

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<deleted>

We are not amused, point taken and concur.

<deleted>

Ill be back when more news is released, but <deleted>.... I still have faith, not in government but The People and its not hard at all to see the hints of coverup here. Unless of course, you have a different agenda....<deleted>

If that's true, then we shouldn't have any problems releasing our troop movements to our citizens, since we employ them. There's a reason not to expose basic operational details, especially if releasing them reduces the ability to function. This is true whether we're talking about troop movements, or the process by which the executive responds to the legislative.

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This is a moot point. Issa changed his request for only information beyond the operation end date. He doesn't want the information on the operation itself anymore. He wants information on the cover up. You used the term "fishing" previously. That term was used by Holder and by the white house to describe the inquiry (probably why you like that term). This isn't "fishing". Using the term fishing makes it look like they have no direction...they are just taking shots in the dark (like there's really nothing there to begin with).

In this case, we knowingly gave guns to cartels. Innocent people were murdered (including Americans). We had no way to track where these guns went. When this is investigated, thousands of documents were withheld, false documents were submitted, Eric Holder withheld information and lied about it. They then found him in contempt.

So because we want to know why this was covered up and lied about, we're "fishing"? People are DEAD because of this. The people deserve to know how and why this happened and how far up this went. The people deserve to know why this was lied about and covered up.

Also, to further disprove your theory about why they did not release the documents:
It is common practice to list the documents you have in your possession and then a reason why you can't submit those documents. They have refused to even hand that over. Why? It would contain no sensitive information at all....just a list and a reason. If there were an ongoing investigation that would be compromised it would say it right there. They only gave over around 8% of all the documents requested.

Just read where the two bloggers that first broke the F&F story have filed an ethics complaint against Holder. Guess they don't trust the congress critters to really follow through on all their tough talk.

Just read where the two bloggers that first broke the F&F story have filed an ethics complaint against Holder.

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The goal is to get Holder disbarred. I don't know if that would cause him to automatically lose his job as AG or not.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/07/sipsey-street-exclusive-mike.html

Here's my issue with this notion of operation F&F being done solely to tighten gun control in the US.

While there was the chance that these guns imported into Mexico by the US government would be used in crimes and then would receive national attention, the reliability of this plan leaves a lot to be desired.
If we can't reliably track where they go, what makes us think we can reliably track which crime they will be used for? How do I know the cartel won't simply sell the nicely brand-spankin-new M4 for profit, grab themselves three UZIs and call it good? Let's face it, it makes no sense to rely on a criminal cartel to do your conspiracy work for you.

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This argument somewhat ignores what the Holder "Justice" Department, along with other federal agencies, have ALREADY done in regard to painting the U.S. arms market as culpable for Mexican gang violence. Some time ago, the FedGov issued a report that 90 percent of all guns used by Mexican criminals came from the U.S. Only after scrutiny of the report raised questions did the FedGov "clarify" that the "90 percent" only referred to those guns that could actually be traced as to its national origin.

Clearly, this administration had/has a vested interest in giving the U.S. arms market a black eye. Infusing the Mexican gang market with thousands of additional "traceable" U.S. guns only adds to their narrative.


.

Only after scrutiny of the report raised questions did the FedGov "clarify" that the "90 percent" only referred to those guns that could actually be traced as to its national origin.

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Actually, I believe it was firearms which they arbitrarily CHOSE to be traced.

The 90% was a joke, many of the photos showing huge caches of weapons contained grenades, full auto weapons, and other contraban that no American can just go into his LGS and buy. There were no statistics on the number of weapons found that had serial numbers that could be traced back through channels supplying the Mexican or other Cent/So American gov agency.
The types of weapons found in Mexico could have origins from around the globe and there are plenty of dirty cops, soldiers in Mexico alone to have sold off what we or other govs. have given them not to mention the world wide illegal arms trade.
We are talking about people that literally have no limits on the money they can spend and they are in a country in which corruption allows for things we can hardly imagine. They are also the neighbor to what may be the most envied country on earth and there are plenty of people wanting to capitalize on that and are constantly working at destabilizing US.

Deanimator said:

Actually, I believe it was firearms which they arbitrarily CHOSE to be traced.

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Okay -- thank you for the correction!


.

atomd said:

This is a moot point. Issa changed his request for only information beyond the operation end date. He doesn't want the information on the operation itself anymore. He wants information on the cover up. ... Using the term fishing makes it look like they have no direction...they are just taking shots in the dark (like there's really nothing there to begin with).

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It perhaps is directed in the sense that it is the fallback when the original position, that Holder was involved in the orchestration of a gun walking plan, was shown to be indefensible using the evidence. It's the same tactic which has been used by creationists when more evidence that refutes their ridiculous claims emerges, known as the "God of the gaps." They can still fight back from the refuge that remains. More recently invoked with the Obama birth certificate, falling back to more desperate positions as more evidence that demolished their position was revealed.

The original premise of Holder orchestrating gun walking to promote gun control hasn't held water, and that much is suggested with the move to focus on an alleged cover up by Holder after the gun walking plan had already completed.

So because we want to know why this was covered up and lied about, we're "fishing"? People are DEAD because of this. The people deserve to know how and why this happened and how far up this went. The people deserve to know why this was lied about and covered up.

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The "how" isn't going to be answered with the documents from after the operation. And the "why" as being discussed in this thread is about finding the answers that the questioners are looking for, see the above section and see the posts at the very beginning which claimed that it went all the way up even though the evidence hadn't supported their beliefs.

They gave him the same treatment as the race baiters who read the first articles on Zimmerman and claimed that he shot Martin because he was black, then pointed at articles that came out later as their justification.

It is common practice to list the documents you have in your possession and then a reason why you can't submit those documents. They have refused to even hand that over. Why?

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They already had a meeting where they were briefed on the withheld documents, but any thing less than the complete documents was insufficient for their demands.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...eting-on-fast-and-furious-documents-contempt/

CAVHOOAH said:

I still have faith, not in government but The People and its not hard at all to see the hints of coverup here. Unless of course, you have a different agenda....

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Beautiful false dichotomy. Anyone who doesn't agree to your position automatically has an agenda. Furthermore, the push to see a coverup wherever possible is not at all an agenda unto itself.

When will the parents of the murdered border patrol agent start getting some answers from holder and obama? What are holder and obama trying to hide? Why won't holder and obama release the documents? Why has the obama administration first claimed that holder didn't know anything about this program, and then had to admit after months of delay and deny that they did know about it?

Neverwinter said:

It perhaps is directed in the sense that it is the fallback when the original position, that Holder was involved in the orchestration of a gun walking plan, was shown to be indefensible using the evidence..

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Or perhaps not. We wont know until the documents are reviewd. You seem to play the "perhaps its just someting else game" but never really answer 'why dont they just turn over the documents?'

The original premise of Holder orchestrating gun walking to promote gun control hasn't held water, and that much is suggested with the move to focus on an alleged cover up by Holder after the gun walking plan had already completed.

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Uh... No. If we learn the 'what, when, whys, and hows, of the cover up, we are likely to quickly get to WHO orchestrated it as the cover up documents will point to WHO they are protecting.

Again, if there were no crimes and therefore, no cover up, Why dont they turn over the documents?

The "how" isn't going to be answered with the documents from after the operation.

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And how do you know that? If they documents show Mr. XYZ ordered it... that going to point to 'how'. It seems that you're quick to dismiss the need for the whole truth supported by all of the documents.

And the "why" as being discussed in this thread is about finding the answers that the questioners are looking for,...

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The answers the questioners are looking for is the simple truth. Again, if no crimes or cover up was committed... why not just turn over the documents?

.....see the above section and see the posts at the very beginning which claimed that it went all the way up even though the evidence hadn't supported their beliefs.

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Absent the documents... of course people are going to speculate. There's a simple solution to end the speculation; Turn over the documents and let the truth get out.

They gave him the same treatment as the race baiters who read the first articles on Zimmerman and claimed that he shot Martin because he was black, then pointed at articles that came out later as their justification.

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Lets stay on topic. This isnt related. Again, just relase the documents and let the truth be free.

They already had a meeting where they were briefed on the withheld documents, but any thing less than the complete documents was insufficient for their demands.

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As it should be! Again, it seems you're quick to dismiss wanting the whole truth.

Holder didnt remember, or recall, or was unaware of, and handfull of very important things that later came out he did. How did that happen? Documents proved it.

He has proven to not be a good witness with selective memory at best.

They've only turned over something like 10% of the documents and the AG office has selected the documents of that paltry %.

I think America deserve the whole truth and nothing but the truth instead of selective memory and selective documents.

Beautiful false dichotomy. Anyone who doesn't agree to your position automatically has an agenda. Furthermore, the push to see a coverup wherever possible is not at all an agenda unto itself.

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And anyone that disagrees with your position gets the 'perhaps it was something else' deflection and 'throw in some unrelated tangets to try rationalize it away' .


The push to see documents is nothing more than search for the truth. Regardless of political party, I support it.

I'll say again,
I think America deserve the whole truth and nothing but the truth instead of selective memory and selective documents.


This thread can keep going around in circles with unrelated diversions of analizing tactics of politics.

But were not talking politics.


So, please explain why you dont think America deserves the whole truth supported by all of the documents instead of proven selective memory supported by selective documents.

Obama told everyone that he would have an open, transparent administration, but things have changed I guess. Obama hides behind a bogus claim of privilege to prevent having to show documents regarding the administration's claim for months that it didn't know about the program. That's called lying to congress.

So when are the parents of the murdered border patrol agent going to get real, non-contrived, actually honest answers from the obama administration about what happened to their son and how it happend? By the way never, I've seen the interview with those poor parents, who are convinced that obama is trying to cover up what really happened and why it happened with the privilege claim.

While there was the chance that these guns imported into Mexico by the US government would be used in crimes and then would receive national attention, the reliability of this plan leaves a lot to be desired.

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I'm at a loss to see why people don't realize this wasn't something that was overlooked, it was the PURPOSE. Obama was on tv/radio repeatedly whining about lax gun control laws in the US resulting in US weapons going to the cartels in Mexico while he knowingly ran an operation that intentionally allowed 1000s of weapons to do exactly that. Its being pretty generous to give him credit that he overlooked the fact these weapons would fall into the wrong hands. In fact it did the most good if they DID fall into the wrong hands. The death of the INS agent would have been great for him if we weren't able to trace the weapon used to Fast and Furious.