1911s suck (not my article)

el Godfather · Aug 16, 2012

From all the discussion that is going on here three questions come to mind:

1. If as stated in posts above Marines will be going through door and crawling in cave, would not it be better they carry a pistol with higher capacity then 7/8 rounds? In civil defense I understand and read arguments on how gun fight doesnt last more then few rounds, but in military operations its different ball game. I have DW vbob (and ordered Nighthawk custom) for daily ccw, but would take my H&K USP in a combat scenario.

2. Some one stated that Marines choice is partially based on the fact they have lot if trigger time on 1911. To me, this just isnt a good enough reason. Leaving the argument whether 1911 is adequate for certain role or it isnt, training on modern and better design should be a preference rather than using an older design with shortcomings.

3. If some one likes to use 1911 he should and ignore the rant. Why is there so much platform and brand conflicts? Double stack 1911 are available, but ruin the best that that I like about 1911- the grip. Trigger on 1911s are awesome, but I also like trigger on Mk23 and FiveseveN and my Beretta 92 Combat Combo and CZ Czechmate

Sergei Mosin · Aug 16, 2012

Much like Robert Farago's previous endeavour, thetruthaboutcars.com, thetruthaboutguns.com thrives on manufactured controversy, sensationalism, a holier-than-thou attitude, and the spreading of hate and discontent. Farago is often wrong, never in doubt. But he has been reasonably successful, so I guess there's a market for his brand of blogging.

Quack · Aug 16, 2012

el Godfather said:
From all the discussion that is going on here three questions come to mind:

1. If as stated in posts above Marines will be going through door and crawling in cave, would not it be better they carry a pistol with higher capacity then 7/8 rounds? In civil defense I understand and read arguments on how gun fight doesnt last more then few rounds, but in military operations its different ball game. I have DW vbob (and ordered Nighthawk custom) for daily ccw, but would take my H&K USP in a combat scenario.

2. Some one stated that Marines choice is partially based on the fact they have lot if trigger time on 1911. To me, this just isnt a good enough reason. Leaving the argument whether 1911 is adequate for certain role or it isnt, training on modern and better design should be a preference rather than using an older design with shortcomings.

3. If some one likes to use 1911 he should and ignore the rant. Why is there so much platform and brand conflicts? Double stack 1911 are available, but ruin the best that that I like about 1911- the grip. Trigger on 1911s are awesome, but I also like trigger on Mk23 and FiveseveN and my Beretta 92 Combat Combo and CZ Czechmate

The handgun is usually the secondary firearm.

Polymer melts and will deform/break easier than steel. Did you happen to see the HK that broke at the grip from a fall?

How many issues did the Gen4 Glock have when a light was mounted?

My hi-cap 1911's are a smidge thinner than a 1911 with standard grips, just blockier.

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BushyGuy · Aug 16, 2012

1911's dont suck! they just lack distance penetration past 50 yards they wont penetrate barriers well as the 9mm.

9mm FMj will penetrate alot better then the 45 at a distance but point blank range they are equal.

el Godfather · Aug 16, 2012

My H&K fell a few times no breakage.

I dont worry about melting my H&K as i do not intend to microwave and if i am in a temp where my H&K could melt, i guess i would be more worried about myself then a freakin gun.

Quack · Aug 16, 2012

el Godfather said:
My H&K fell a few times no breakage.

I dont worry about melting my H&K as i do not intend to microwave and if i am in a temp where my H&K could melt, i guess i would be more worried about myself then a freakin gun.

There's a difference between the gun falling (a Hi-Point can survive that) and the user falling with it holstered and breaking the grip off.

Rare chance of it happening, but it can happen.

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Quack · Aug 16, 2012

http://loadoutroom.com/3817/when-polymer-guns-fail-hk-p2000/

MarshallDodge · Aug 16, 2012

el Godfather said:
From all the discussion that is going on here three questions come to mind:

1. If as stated in posts above Marines will be going through door and crawling in cave, would not it be better they carry a pistol with higher capacity then 7/8 rounds? In civil defense I understand and read arguments on how gun fight doesnt last more then few rounds, but in military operations its different ball game. I have DW vbob (and ordered Nighthawk custom) for daily ccw, but would take my H&K USP in a combat scenario.

2. Some one stated that Marines choice is partially based on the fact they have lot if trigger time on 1911. To me, this just isnt a good enough reason. Leaving the argument whether 1911 is adequate for certain role or it isnt, training on modern and better design should be a preference rather than using an older design with shortcomings.

3. If some one likes to use 1911 he should and ignore the rant. Why is there so much platform and brand conflicts? Double stack 1911 are available, but ruin the best that that I like about 1911- the grip. Trigger on 1911s are awesome, but I also like trigger on Mk23 and FiveseveN and my Beretta 92 Combat Combo and CZ Czechmate

It is because the Internet knows better than anybody.

Hacker15E · Aug 16, 2012

I absolutely love reading internet "gun experts" riffing on what the Marines "need" or "should have bought".

I still love the 1911 but lets be honest, they need the best platform to get the job done and that isn't the 1911. Glock 21 for example will get the job done, is less finicky about conditions (sand for example), the armorer training is so easy it is a joke, and will outlast the 1911. I want my tax dollars to be spent wisely not on the latest 1911 fad.

Are you making that statement based on all the time that you spent in the Marine Special Ops world?

Some one stated that Marines choice is partially based on the fact they have lot if trigger time on 1911. To me, this just isnt a good enough reason.

Again...what basis do you have for determining what the "reason" is for a special operations unit selecting a tool they use? Unless you are part of that unit, and know what it is they need, none of us are qualified to have even an opinion on that choice.

Quack · Aug 16, 2012

at the rate Glock is going at, they'll be on Gen16 for the 100th Anniversary. :lol:

Hacker15E · Aug 16, 2012

it does need tuning, a lot of the time, tuning that joe blow can't do

Yes, this is why units that use small arms have a position known as an "armorer" (or by various other names, but the one who maintains the unit's small arms). I've never been in any military unit where "joe blow" was in charge of storing, maintaining, and issuing small arms -- it's always been someone specifically trained in that field.

Hacker15E · Aug 16, 2012

Interestingly enough, two of the top tier weapons trainers (IMHO) have made the switch from 1911 to polymers in the last 18 months, particularly in their competition and duty carry. (Glock and M&P) Actions speak louder than words.

...and Chris Costa switched over from the M&P to the Nighthawk 1911 when he left Magpul and started Costa Ludus.

hentown · Aug 16, 2012

The author of the article states he will only listen to people who have been there and done that. Unless I am mistaken Ayoob has his name on a signature edition Ed Brown 1911.

IF I'm not mistaken, Ayoob has never been in a gunfight. He hasn't "been there and done that," has he?

Quack · Aug 16, 2012

...and Chris Costa switched over from the M&P to the Nighthawk 1911 when he left Magpul and started Costa Ludus.

He was currently shooting an STI 4.0 Tactical 9mm in class last month. I asked him why he wasn't shooting his NH, he told me because his elbows are injured and NH no longer makes a 2011.

He also had a G19 and his AETi M&P, but used the STI for most (2.5 of the 3 days) of the class.

EddieNFL · Aug 16, 2012

Hacker15E said:
...and Chris Costa switched over from the M&P to the Nighthawk 1911 when he left Magpul and started Costa Ludus.

I would use whatever someone paid me (enough) to use.

Skylerbone · Aug 16, 2012

3. If some one doesn't like to use 1911 he shouldn't and stop the rant. Why is there so much platform and brand conflicts?

How'd that be?

If my thread title was Glock, the Worst Pistol Ever!!! would you ask Glock shooters to shrug and move along? Ignore the ignorance, the lies and the posturing? Would you say a forum for discussion and learning simply isn't the venue for correcting or calling to task imbeciles?

What I don't understand are the constant attacks, the same tired rhetoric and lies put forth week after week after month after year. My 1911s still haven't failed and your claim that they aren't as reliable as your Glock/H&K/XD/M&P/Sig still ain't true. 100% is 100%, no matter how many rounds you claim to shoot vs. how many you snatch from thin air about how many you think I shoot.

Help Gen 4 G17 FTE! "You're limp wristing, WWB isn't powerful enough, do you have the revised recoil set-up, Glock got a bad batch of extractors, mag spring is weak, Glock mags are cheap, you should sling shot it, are you running reloads, my Glock is good to go, I call BS Glocks never fail".

Help $360 1911 clone FTE! "Those aren't reliable".

coalman · Aug 16, 2012

Another 1911-bashing, Glock fanboy taking a break from the Glock kool-aid to stir the pot. IMO, the more simple and cheaper Glock is a better defensive gun for the masses IMO, but a good 1911 a finer and more refined tool in the hands of skilled shooters. But, let's not talk about the Glock Gen 2 AD issue, the Gen2 .40sw KB issue, the Gen2 .45acp light primer strike issue, the Gen4 9mm FTE/FTF issue, the G30sf FTRTB issue, the Gen3 .40sw FTF light issue, and so on.... afterall, wouldn't want to actually be fair or objective in our internet gun bashing.

Skribs · Aug 16, 2012

Regarding the guy breaking his HK, that fall put him in the hospital, and might have been worse if his gun didn't break. Also, just because metal wouldn't have broke, doesn't mean it wouldn't have bent out of shape.

Double stack 1911 are available, but ruin the best that that I like about 1911- the grip.

I actually don't like the grip of a single stack. Only reason I would want one is for a slimmer pocket carry pistol. I'm a gamer, and my hand is used to gripping a fat mouse, not a teensy little pistol grip.

The rest of your post seems to highlight what I've been thinking. If you're in a war, the ability to carry more rounds counts. It's one reason why we switched from 7.62mm to 5.56mm, and I thought why we switched to 9mm. Honestly, the 9mm makes more sense than the .45 in a military setting, IMO. But, like I said, I trust that the operators who are of such an elite level that they get to choose their own stuff are capable of dealing with (what I see as) the shortcomings of the platform over others.

1911Tuner · Aug 16, 2012

. Some one stated that Marines choice is partially based on the fact they have lot if trigger time on 1911. To me, this just isnt a good enough reason.

Well...I guess you'll just have to accept that it's a good enough reason for them. After all, they'll be going through the door and into the cave, etc. Hey...If one of'em turned to me and asked for big red lollipop before he hit the door...I'd be scramblin' around lookin' for a big red lollipop.

Again...what basis do you have for determining what the "reason" is for a special operations unit selecting a tool they use? Unless you are part of that unit, and know what it is they need, none of us are qualified to have even an opinion on that choice.

And we've got another winner! Give that man a big seegar!

el Godfather · Aug 16, 2012

Ummm the farmer down stream has been using sling shot for past fifty years so he and other decided upgrade their sling shots but refused to go with Remington 870. I cant argue with them either. Lolz.

Enjoy.

Jeff White · Aug 16, 2012

IF I'm not mistaken, Ayoob has never been in a gunfight. He hasn't "been there and done that," has he?

Are you inferring that unless you have been unfortunate enough to have been in a gunfight you bring nothing to the table?

Boyd, the father of modern dog fighting was never in a dog fight, yet everyone in the fighter community is taught the TTPs he developed. Hiw thoughts on mindset are applicable training for any kind of combat.

The Army that rolled up the Iraqis in 1991 was almost completely taught bby officers and NCOs with no combat experience. Most of those with leadership experience during Vietnam having long retired and SOF was the only repository of recent combat experience.

By the time the war on terror rolled around in 2001 those people with combat experience in the first gulf war who were still in uniform were in senior positions and not sharing their experiences directly with the troops except for the most part through articles in professional publications.

Yet we did pretty well for ourselves. Of course we have a good institutional memory.

Just because someone has "seen the elephant" doesn't mean he is the know all/be all when it comes to combat. What you need to know is what he did when he saw the elephant. Many people get through on luck alone.

I'm truly sorry that the USMC Special Operations unit didn't select your favorite pistol be it a Glock or Hi Point. All that means is that given a thorough review of their mission requirements they bought what they thought they needed to accomplish the mission.

If your favorite pistol didn't make the cut, well that's just tough. When you are organizing, training and equipping your unit, feel free to choose your personal favorite. Make sure you draw on the institutional knowledge you gained from whatever organization you were associated with before you were tasked with forming a unit.

I swear some of you guys think that decisions like these are made in a vacuum or that the people who wrote the requirements picked up a copy of Custom 1911s at the PX and used it as their sole source document. :scrutiny:

tipoc · Aug 16, 2012

Yankeegunnuts over at www.thetruthaboutguns.com knows something that some of us may not (and that many radio talk show hosts have known for years)...that the more hits you have on your website the more the advertisers pay you for renting space on that site. So if you purposefully write articles filled with half truths and distortions it generates controversy and more hits on your site and more revenue.

Now that youtube is paying out cash for some hits to posted vids there we see more goofy stuff there about guns as well. Above and beyond the regular goofy stuff.

It's interesting to see how many fellas agree with the points in the article yet themselves know next to nothing about 1911s and admit it. It's sometimes helpful to at least know something truthful about what you are speaking about.

tipoc

meanmrmustard · Aug 16, 2012

Skylerbone said:
How'd that be?

If my thread title was Glock, the Worst Pistol Ever!!! would you ask Glock shooters to shrug and move along? Ignore the ignorance, the lies and the posturing? Would you say a forum for discussion and learning simply isn't the venue for correcting or calling to task imbeciles?

What I don't understand are the constant attacks, the same tired rhetoric and lies put forth week after week after month after year. My 1911s still haven't failed and your claim that they aren't as reliable as your Glock/H&K/XD/M&P/Sig still ain't true. 100% is 100%, no matter how many rounds you claim to shoot vs. how many you snatch from thin air about how many you think I shoot.

Help Gen 4 G17 FTE! "You're limp wristing, WWB isn't powerful enough, do you have the revised recoil set-up, Glock got a bad batch of extractors, mag spring is weak, Glock mags are cheap, you should sling shot it, are you running reloads, my Glock is good to go, I call BS Glocks never fail".

Help $360 1911 clone FTE! "Those aren't reliable".

Excellent post.

tipoc · Aug 16, 2012

Jeff White,
I'm quoting here from the original post linked to in the beginning of this thread. After a rant against Jeff Cooper the author says:

If you have documentation about Cooper’s real-world experience, please drop me a line. I am happy to revise my opinion. I have no doubt that he was qualified to teach people how to shoot on a range. Beyond that, a grain of salt is required. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that; Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, etc. Am I a qualifications snob? No, I am an results snob.

This is where the references in this discussion to Ayoob had there beginnings. I don't think anyone here was dissing Ayoob. The author of the rant against the 1911 was unaware of Ayoobs positive writings on the 1911 and seemed to think Ayoob had been in numerous gunfights. Or possibly he just did not care about the facts and was trying to stir up a fight.

tipoc

mavracer · Aug 16, 2012

Jeff White said:
Are you inferring that unless you have been unfortunate enough to have been in a gunfight you bring nothing to the table?

I don't believe that was hentown's point, but the point of the original article's author

1911s suck (not my article)

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