Does Energy Count In Handgun Calibers?

J.Edgar Hoover carried a 32 Colt revolver if that means anything!

J.Edgar Hoover carried a 32 Colt revolver if that means anything!

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It's reported that John Browning's favored carry gun was the Colt 1903 Pocket Model.

Try getting them to explain why you can get equal expansion and greater depth of penetration with a 158 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum, yet the 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum with its higher KE is a better stopper.

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Is it actually a better stopper?

You keep upholding Marshal and Sanow's work as the one true set of data regarding actual shootings, but what you haven't mentioned is that in order to try to have a usable set of data, they threw out a large amount of shooting reports because either the target was hit more than once or was hit in a part of the body they felt disqualified the shooting from being usable in one to one comparisons.

Naturally a heavier recoiling weapon is going to be better represented in a list of single-hit stops, because an equal shooter with a lighter recoiling weapon is better able to land successive hits, giving the target less time to cease their activity before being shot again.

In the M&S one shot stop data the 125 gr. JHP in .357 is #1 and easily better than the 158 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum. The only load that rivals the 125 gr. JHP in .357 is 3 or 4 loads of 230 gr. JHP in .45 ACP. So their data does not always favor lighter faster bullets. I'll put my money where my mouth is because I use the Remington 230 gr. JHP in .45 ACP. Here in Texas the DPS used the .357 Magnum as their service weapon almost as soon as .357 Magnum revolvers became available. When Jacketed hollow-points came on the seen the DPS began using the 125 gr. JHP and did so until they transitioned to autoloaders not so many years ago. The 125 gr. .357 has a sterling record with the DPS so when they did their testing to select their new service pistol and cartridge, they looked for the round that came closest to performing like the 125 gr. .357 Magnum and the only round that passed their test was the .357 SIG. No subsonic passed the testing. Tell me, what LE agency has more actual gunfighting experience than the Texas DPS and Rangers? Nobody but the US Border Patrol and that's happened in recent years.

I keep referring to M&S because it's the only data that covers real world gun battles and not just testing theories in ballistic gelatin. Of course they threw out shootings where more than one shot was fired. How else can you compare one load/caliber directly to another load/caliber. You do the same thing when testing in ballistic gel. One round compared to one round. ALL one shot events were included in the data regardless of where the bullet impacted the perp. Don't take my word for it, anyone that's interested can go to: www.stoppingpower.net where Evan Marshall participates in his own forum.

I don't consider the one shot stop data to be the be-all end-all, but I do believe that there were enough shootings to conclude Ed Sanow's theory concerning the 400 - 600 Ft/Lb window. I also believe that Fackler got it right with the 12" minimum penetration standard. I just don't buy into one single theory where the only evidence is ballistic gel testing or cadavers that may have been shot multiple times. I believe it's useful, I just also believe the one shot stop data is useful as well. More recent ballistic experts are making claims about loads like the California Highway Patrol's success with the 180 gr. JHP in .40 S&W but the data is very skewed and does include perps that were shot multiple times. How are you going to compare one round to another when a perp has been struck by multiple bullets?

We have better bullets today for sure and there may be some that will get it done at under 400 Ft/Lbs but the standard pressure 147 gr. JHP in 9mm only develops 326 Ft/Lbs @ 1000 FPS velocity. That's just not enough for me to bet my life on. We all know that it takes more skill to control heavier recoil, but do you guys actually consider 124 gr. +P JHPs in 9mm hard to control. I cut my teeth on magnum revolvers and find the 124 +P pretty easy to control. But like I said, my carry load is the 230 gr. JHP in .45 ACP and I can shoot it as fast and accurate as I need to.

And for those that don't know, it was Martin Fackler's theories dominated by penetration that led the FBI and other LE agencies to choose the 147 gr. JHP 9mm load in the late 80s. These rounds failed to provide adequate expansion and in some cases innocent bystanders were struck by overpenetrating bullets.

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The 147gr Federal HST expands more and penetrates less than the 124gr +P GDHP. This is just further evidence that bullet construction and momentum are far more critical than energy in terminal ballistics.

We'll leave out that M&S so-called data set is seriously flawed, fails under scientific scrutiny, and was very likely fabricated.

probably not so much in the smaller ones. those basically push a hole into its target, allowing blood to leak out. but in the big, hunting guns it definitely does.

I keep referring to M&S because it's the only data that covers real world gun battles and not just testing theories in ballistic gelatin.

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Your beliefs about "just testing theories in ballistic gelatin" are incorrect:

Of course they threw out shootings where more than one shot was fired. How else can you compare one load/caliber directly to another load/caliber.

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See - "Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement" at - http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/article421.htm

In regard to the OP's question: Does Energy Count in Handgun Calibers?


And...

ugaarguy said:

The 147gr Federal HST expands more and penetrates less than the 124gr +P GDHP. This is just further evidence that bullet construction and momentum are far more critical than energy in terminal ballistics.

We'll leave out that M&S so-called data set is seriously flawed, fails under scientific scrutiny, and was very likely fabricated.

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Well said.

It is good see that there are others who "get it"... I mean, besides Shawn.

kokapelli said:

In regard to "QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION" I remember a test done sometime back that showed JHP rounds that did not expand in gelatin would frequently expand in water, which brings into question "how reliable is shooting into water" a good gauge of bullet expansion?

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That's a good question.

In their respective books, Schwartz (QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION) and MacPherson (BULLET PENETRATION) both explain that so long as both test mediums (in this case gelatin and water) have equal densities, the dynamic pressure (P = ½V^2) that initiates and drives expansion is also equal.

On the first page of Chapter 2 of his book, Schwartz does a good job of satisfying this claim-

"Through comparative analysis, the dynamic equivalence (in terms of respective density and internal speed of sound) of water and calibrated 10 percent ordnance gelatin as ballistic test mediums will also be established."

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-and actually shows his work (the math) which allowed me to further understand why both mediums are valid without talking waaaay over my head. There's also a supporting reference to Applied Wound Ballistics: What’s New and What’s True written by Dr. Fackler that states-

"Water can be used as a tissue simulant and causes just slightly more bullet deformation than gelatin or soap; the Firearms Training Unit of the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation uses it as a screening mechanism to decide which bullets expand well enough to merit further scrutiny."

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From the QAS website FAQ-

"Because water produces dynamic forces on transient projectiles that are nearly identical to those produced by calibrated ordnance gelatin, it is an excellent tissue simulant. Water is insensitive to ambient environmental conditions, requires no calibration in order to produce valid test results, and can be used with little difficulty. Ballistic tests conducted in calibrated ordnance gelatin require rigorous environmental control to ensure a valid test outcome and can cost in excess of $400 per test shot. The ease of use and low cost of testing in water make it an attractive option for those individuals seeking a valid, cost-effective ballistic test medium."

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MacPherson also explains it referring to the same paper by Fackler (MacPherson also advocates water tests as a valid test method), but sometimes I found myself getting lost in the lengthy (but not quite "run-on") sentences.

Bullets do weird stuff and are unpredictable. Sometimes they don't expand in water either, but that doesn't mean that either medium is questionable. It is more likely a problem with the construction/manufacture of the bullet.

Although I have my favorite, both books are excellent reading for anyone interested in the topic.

^^^^ I agree, both books are a must read if one wishes to gain an informed understanding of WTI. There's a great amount of information to be learned by studying the IWBA articles that are available online.

FWIW, the 357 magnum attained its lethal performance reputation long before there were jacketed hollow point bullets on the market. The 158gr round nose lead bullet gave way to to the 158gr semi jacket hollow point during the mid to late 60s as I understand it. The 125gr SJHPs were developed during the mid 70s. I entered LE after returning from Vietnam and the only ammunition we carried was the Remington 158gr SJHPs.

During the peak decades of 357mag carry, we trained to keep shooting until the threat of return fire was eliminated. I've never understood the logic of one shot stops as a determining factor for bullet effectiveness, never during our training were we taught to fire one shot and wait to see if the threat was neutralized.

The 147gr Federal HST expands more and penetrates less than the 124gr +P GDHP. This is just further evidence that bullet construction and momentum are far more critical than energy in terminal ballistics.

We'll leave out that M&S so-called data set is seriously flawed, fails under scientific scrutiny, and was very likely fabricated.

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In the case you cite, the 124 gr. Gold Dot +P has both higher energy and momentum compared to the 147 gr. HST.

When you say the M&S data is flawed you should consider the source of it's biggest detractors. Most of 'em have an axe to grind because M&S data showed that sometimes a faster lighter bullet is more effective. In Fackler's case, his early models that the FBI used resulted in three ammo failures where they had to go to something else at taxpayer expense. After the Miami Shootout fiasco the FBI selected the poor expanding and overpenetrating 147 gr. JHP in 9mm. At the same time there were two very effective loads used by the Illinois State Police and the Secret Service as well as some other LE agencies. The loads were 115 gr. JHPs loaded to +P+ velocity with conventional JHPs and had stopping records above 90% effective. The FBI ignored them. The testing they use today is not that relevant for civilian shooters unless you really think you'll be involved in a gun battle where you'll need to shoot through sheetmetal or autoglass. 4 layers of denim is the necessary standard most shooters are likely to encounter. The 180 gr. .40 S&W load they use today may be more effective after penetrating barriers than say the 165 gr. "Medium Velocity"they were using, but in both cases the loads are subsonic and there are better loads out there for civilian use. Particularly the 165 gr. Golden Saber at around 1150 FPS.

I'm starting to think that some of you guys haven't been at this very long or haven't developed the skills to accurately shoot the higher energy loads, and in the case of the 165 gr. Golden Saber, it has considerably higher momentum to that of a subsonic 180. I enjoy good mathematical data as much as anyone else and can perform all of it. I just don't awe at it. In my work, I consult to engineers, so let's not go there. I'll suffice it to say that good engineers are not manufactured in our universities. The best of them and particularly design engineers have God given aptitude for their profession. Frankly I find it hard to understand how an engineer at the top of his craft would have the time to devote to writing up his opinions on wound ballsitics.

As far as Roberts and MacPherson, most of their opinions and theories are based on ballistic gel testing. When they have used actual shooting cases the perps were shot multiple times.

FWIW, the 357 magnum attained its lethal performance reputation long before there were jacketed hollow point bullets on the market. The 158gr round nose lead bullet gave way to to the 158gr semi jacket hollow point during the mid to late 60s as I understand it. The 125gr SJHPs were developed during the mid 70s. I entered LE after returning from Vietnam and the only ammunition we carried was the Remington 158gr SJHPs.

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As I said, the Texas DPS has been using the .357 Magnum nearly as long as it's been around. The DPS started using 125 gr. JHP loads about as soon as they were developed. No other state in the US has more highways to patrol than Texas. No other state comes close to the gunfighting experience of the DPS. There are more LE personnel and agencies in some counties of Texas than there are the entire state of Arizona. Harris, Dallas and Tarrant county for example. And as I've stated, the load they used for around 25 years was the 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum. Now they use the.357 SIG. You really think they haven't done their homework? Combined, the DPS Troopers and Rangers already have more actual experience than the FBI is ever likely to have. They don't find a need to consult Fackler, Roberts or MacPherson either.

In the case you cite, the 124 gr. Gold Dot +P has both higher energy and momentum compared to the 147 gr. HST.

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First you complained that 9mm 147gr JHPs overpenetrate and don't expand enough. Now you're complaining about one of the largest expanding 9mm loads of any bullet weight not having enough momentum. What else do you want?

I'm starting to think that some of you guys haven't been at this very long or haven't developed the skills to accurately shoot the higher energy loads, and in the case of the 165 gr. Golden Saber, it has considerably higher momentum to that of a subsonic 180. I enjoy good mathematical data as much as anyone else and can perform all of it. I just don't awe at it

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Actually, you're so awe struck with the energy numbers of exterior ballistics that you've been blinded to any rational discussion of terminal ballistics.

FWIW, the 357 magnum attained its lethal performance reputation long before there were jacketed hollow point bullets on the market. The 158gr round nose lead bullet...

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The original .357 Magnum cartridge was loaded with a 158-grain LSWC. If there was ever a 158 LRN commercially loaded in the caliber, I'm not aware of it.

so awe struck with the energy numbers of exterior ballistics...blinded to any rational discussion of terminal ballistics.

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I think that pretty well sums it up for most people. I hear far more arguments for the "best" based on velocity/energy figures than anything else.

To me, it's a little like using the top speed as a basis for the selection of a new pickup truck

You're putting incorrect words in your own mouth. Today's 147 gr. JHP in 9mm expands much better than the 147 gr. JHP in 9mm of the late 80s that didn't expand. I've said that if you bothered to read the post in its entirety. But at 326 Ft/Lbs I'm not gonna count on it to work as well on some adrenalin charged criminal as it does in gelatin, are you? As far as I am cocerned any rational discussion of terminal ballistics should at least consider actual gunfight performance in the M&S data and not just on theoretical models or examining perps corpses that where shot multiple times with whatever.

I think that pretty well sums it up for most people. I hear far more arguments for the "best" based on velocity/energy figures than anything else.

To me, it's a little like using the top speed as a basis for the selection of a new pickup truck

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Well, I don't know about that analogy but I don't buy self defense ammo based on energy and velocities alone. I have said it repeatedly now that this is where ballistic gel testing can be useful. M&S also use ballistic gel testing that correlates to their one shot stop data. What they found is that the round that came closest to the 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum is the 230 gr. JHP in .45 ACP at the mid or upper 90 percentile so they are not stuck on the light/fast issue at all. I happen to agree with this and since I switched to autoloaders for defense a good number of years ago I have found that the 230 gr. JHP in .45 ACP works best for me. The only thing better in autoloaders IMO is a 230 gr. JHP +P in .45 ACP. LOL. It provides both the energy and the momentum in all the quantity anyone should need for a self defense round. For practice I shoot a handloaded 230 gr. JHP .45 ACP load at 900 FPS.

I also think y'all should look at the poll numbers. The overwhelming majority believe that energy in handgun rounds does matter!

You're putting incorrect words in your own mouth. Today's 147 gr. JHP in 9mm expands much better than the 147 gr. JHP in 9mm of the late 80s that didn't expand. I've said that if you bothered to read the post in its entirety. But at 326 Ft/Lbs I'm not gonna count on it to work as well on some adrenalin charged criminal as it does in gelatin, are you? As far as I am cocerned any rational discussion of terminal ballistics should at least consider actual gunfight performance in the M&S data and not just on theoretical models or examining perps corpses that where shot multiple times with whatever.

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You, like M&S, are correlating the incorrect variables. Every year in North America ice cream sales are at their highest in the months of June through July. During those same months, drowning deaths are also at their highest each year. Clearly consumption of ice cream leads to drowning if you ignore that recreational swimming is also at its highest during those months.

In the same way, the older 9mm 147 gr JHPs had poor terminal performance, and they have lower energy than some rounds with better terminal performance. Yes, they had poor expansion. So obviously they needed to be driven at higher velocity (which would result in more energy) to get better terminal performance. Right? Wrong - they were already being driven fast enough that had sufficient momentum to completely penetrate a human torso. Higher velocity (which would result in greater energy and momentum) wasn't what was needed. Changes in bullet construction allowed 9mm 147gr JHPs to reliably expand at their standard velocities and in turn greatly reduce over penetration risk.

Energy is not a wounding mechanism in handgun ballistics. Handgun rounds simply don't have the energy to impart hydrostatic shock in quantities sufficient to create a shock wave that stretches tissue beyond its elasticity limits to create a permanent wound cavity.

Penetration and expansion crush tissue, which is the only way to create permanent wound cavity when dealing with handgun ballistics.

I also think y'all should look at the poll numbers. The overwhelming majority believe that energy in handgun rounds does matter!

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Which simply proves that the majority of the people who voted are uneducated or undereducated on terminal ballistics of handgun rounds.

I will admit to having changed my mind in this. I believed all the stories. Then I did a little bit of homework and testing. Among the service calibers, the amount of energy expended makes little difference if any in the terminal performance of the bullet.

I do believe energy plays a part in effectiveness, particularly when expanding bullets are used. Once expanded, a bullet relies on bullet weight and remaining velocity (energy) to continue penetrating.

Put me in the camp of energy "counting" when expanding projectiles are used ( and less so with RN-FMJ style handgun rounds).

Just for the record, I have always rejected the idea of hydrostatic shock from a typical service round. However, if a bonded 147gr 9mm jhp were driven 300 fps faster from a 9x25 Dillion, I DO believe (presuming all other variables remained the same) it would likely be a "more effective" round.

I have said it repeatedly now that this is where ballistic gel testing can be useful. M&S also use ballistic gel testing that correlates to their one shot stop data.

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Using ballistic gelatin to "prove" or predict a bullet's behavior and performance in living tissue is petty much a crapshoot...and continuing along the lines of my pickup truck analogy...rather like predicting a Corvette's real-world cornering ability by having a professional driver wring it out on a skid pad. It pads the lateral G force numbers for advertising purposes...a little like velocity numbers for revolvers derived in an unvented test barrel. Looks good on paper, but none of it accurately represents what will happen on a real road or in a real revolver.

Ballistic gelatin...or any other homogenous medium...is mainly useful in comparing the performance of different bullet/cartridge combinations at various ranges. Gelatin simulates muscle tissues, so the results in that medium carry a little more weight than in water or duct seal.

Ballistic gelatin...or any other homogenous medium...is mainly useful in comparing the performance of different bullet/cartridge combinations at various ranges.

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And while it may be a crapshoot it's far more telling than energy numbers.
Energy is a poor way to compare rounds as it really doesn't corralate to permanent wound channel size. more energy doesn't always equate to a larger/deeper hole. If you look at large differences in mass IE 500 ft.lbs with a 100gr bullet is going to make a much smaller permanent wound track when compared to a 250gr bullet with 500 ft.lbs. because of the huge difference in momentum.

I'm going to vote no, because I lean towards the "bullets make holes" school of thought so I'm more worried about the average penetration and expansion of any given defensive round than I am about the energy level of the round when comparing bullet A to bullet B.

But, that doesn't mean I discount energy levels entirely. I just don't know how much of a factor they are.
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Same here even though I do believe that for certain cases energy does matter but as a whole if you are talking about how much more deadly is a .357 Mag. to an intruder's skull or vital organ area to a .22LR HV round........ it's well known fact a .22 short can kill.

But at 326 Ft/Lbs I'm not gonna count on it to work as well on some adrenalin charged criminal as it does in gelatin, are you?

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I'm going to count on it to perform (expand and penetrate) as well as it does in gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth.

I don't expect any bullet to be effective at producing rapid incapacitation unless it damages tissues that are critical to immediate survival.

Placement and penetration are the keys to rapid incapacitation. A bullet must be placed so it will pass through vital structures and it must penetrate deeply enough to reach and damage them.

Rapidity of incapacitation depends on which vital tissues are damaged and how much they are damaged. The damage (wound trauma) produced is the only proven mechanism that can be counted on to be reliable in producing rapid incapacitation.

Once expanded, a bullet relies on bullet weight and remaining velocity (energy) to continue penetrating.

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This is a great example of folks not understanding the physics. First, velocity does not equal energy. Second, once a barrier - like a large mammal for example - is encountered it's momentum, not energy, that allows the projectile to penetrate. This is because energy is conserved only in plastic collisions, and not in elastic collisions. That's why momentum is far more important than energy when discussing the terminal ballistics of projectiles in a self defense context.