The concept of 380 vs more powerful rounds

WvHiker, who said

Carry whatever you want, I'll carry whatever I want, and the next guy can carry whatever he wants. I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up about what other people carry.

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has a true libertarian approach to the question. Bravo!

Does anyone who thinks a .380 isn't good enough willing to be shot by one?

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Does anyone here want to get splashed in the face with warm cat urine?

I would not be terribly surprised if someone, somewhere has successfully defended against an attacker by just that method, or something similar and equally obnoxious. (Although I suspect the overall OSS rating would be pretty low for warm cat urine.)

Shot shells loaded with rock salt served very well until we learned from movies and the Internet that a .45ACP round will blast as assailant through three walls and into the street.

According to the FBI, non-LEO shooters are most likely to be attacked at less than seven feet, under low-light conditions, and by an unarmored assailant, in a frontal attack.

What is all of this about heavy clothing? Many parts of the United States have average temperatures well above freezing throughout the winter. Here, in Northern Georgia, the average winter temp is 47 degrees. Heavy clothing isn't in abundance.

If one is in such a cold climate, they will have ample opportunity to carry a more powerful caliber. The same clothing that makes it necessary to carry heavy also provides ample places to carry it in.

This is part of the problem with these threads. All that "wisdom" forgets that not everyone faces the same living conditions, laws, and personal abilities. Ever wonder why the actual shooting schools aren't caliber fixated? Perhaps because not everyone, and certainly not everywhere, needs the same capabilities.

As for the " get the XXX in 9mm, it's the same size" is a bogus statement. The bigger gun will be slightly larger, and weigh, when loaded, slightly more. Then again, if you think that a Kahr in 9x19 is better then a Kahr .380, then why not just jump up to the P45? That gives you a still larger bullet, only loses one round, and weighs 3.3 oz more. Or the P40?

AFDavis, barring things like mindset and placement (which are pretty much universal) penetration > expanded caliber. So when I look at the difference between .380 and 9 in a gun that I'd spend more than 20 rounds at the range at a time, they're about the same size and capacity, and I feel them kick about the same, but in order to get the same penetration in a .380 you have to get a failure to expand (or FMJs), which results in a wound channel of significantly smaller diameter.

9mm, .357 magnum, or .45 ACP designed for SD will all penetrate to about the same depth and all expand to ~0.1" of each other. That's why I carry a 9 instead of some of these others.

Now, when you get into LCP range, sure you're not likely to find a 9 that size. I also don't believe that you need an LCP for pocket carry (I've pocket carried a M&P compact without trouble). Some people in this thread seem to think that your options are either a pocket .380 or a Glock 17. There are small 9mm pistols, too.

Lobo9er, 8 inches, regardless of where it comes from, might fail to hit vitals if shooting the target at an odd angle.

Shot shells loaded with rock salt served very well until we learned from movies and the Internet that a .45ACP round will blast as assailant through three walls and into the street.

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Can you explain to me how the FBI stats requiring 12" penetration or the old army tests where they chose the .45 ACP for the requirements in the 1911 have anything to do with movies?

JR47, you're from Georgia, I'm from Washington state. Let me tell you - heavy clothing can be a big deal for 10 months of the year.

My rock salt and 45s comment was meant to call out the futility of the argument, nothing more.

Heavy clothing a factor?...I do remember an instance where I was confronted by thee Eskimos wearing Kevlars...

My rock salt and 45s comment was meant to call out the futility of the argument, nothing more.

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Well if the Army and the FBI both consider caliber selection to be an important consideration, then shouldn't we - who are also using our guns to stop threats if the situation arises - give the same level of consideration?

Unfortunately the caliber selection by our armed forces cannot be relied upon as their choices are dictated by politics and logistics. Why leave the more effective. 45 ACP in FMJ and go to the 9mm FMJ?

JR47 said:

As for the " get the XXX in 9mm, it's the same size" is a bogus statement. The bigger gun will be slightly larger, and weigh, when loaded, slightly more.

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Depends on which two guns you are talking about. If you check out this link you can find 9mm guns that are smaller than 380s. http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

By the way, I own five 380s and they are all bigger and heavier than my 9mm Kel-Tec P11

Unfortunately the caliber selection by our armed forces cannot be relied upon as their choices are dictated by politics and logistics. Why leave the more effective. 45 ACP in FMJ and go to the 9mm FMJ?

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I didn't say we should go with what they choose, especially because their applications may be a bit different than ours. I did say that we should look at why they look at caliber selection (ability to stop a target, among other factors) and realize that it is an important consideration.

lobo9er said:

To each his own.

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That was my point and why I said "What concerns me most..." Never said that anyone else was constrained by that concern.

If you check out this link you can find 9mm guns that are smaller than 380s.

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I don't see any 9mms smaller than the Seecamp and none are lighter than the LCR or Keltec.

By the way, I own five 380s and they are all bigger and heavier than my 9mm Kel-Tec P11

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And they're probably easier to shoot accuratly faster.

mavracer said:

I don't see any 9mms smaller than the Seecamp and none are lighter than the LCR or Keltec.

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Is your carry gun a Seecamp? If so I assume you decided that it was enough smaller and lighter than a 9mm to be worth the decrease in power. My point was that not all 380s are smaller and lighter than some of the small 9mms. So as the original question asked, I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest someone looks at pocket size 9mms when they ask about carrying a 380.

Oh, and I'm sure I could shoot some of my 380s faster than the Kel Tec. But that's just because the 380s are all single action and the Kel Tec is DAO.

Well, it's certainly not uncommon to see some folks get all worked up over what other people may choose to lawfully carry for a dedicated defensive weapon.

While I've not made it my business to denigrate what other LE choose to carry for off-duty weapons (as long as it's within policy), or what non-LE folks choose to use for lawful CCW application, I've had my own thoughts on the matter over the years.

Until recently, the last .380 I'd briefly owned and carried was about 25 years ago, and that was a Beretta M84. Large for the caliber, thick (dbl stack mag) ... and nowadays I have 9's about as small, or smaller.

A while back a good friend of mine (another instructor) sheepishly admitted that he'd bought a LCP and had been using and carrying it. He loaned it to me, and I was pleasantly surprised by how well it could be slipped into some of the tighter jeans pockets (pocket holstered) in which I couldn't slip one of my J's.

Realizing the inherent capabilities of the .380 cartridge, as well as its practical & potential limitations, I decided the LCP could be used to fill a role. I ordered one of my own.

I test-fired mine using 3 types of hollowpoints. I tried a 25-rd box of the Remington 102gr BJHP (Golden Sabre), a 50-rd box of Speer 90gr GDHP and half of a 50-rd box of the Winchester 95gr RA380T (T-Series).

Although the rudimentary front sight is small and hard to see, especially in reduced light conditions, the little LCP was surprisingly (amazingly) accurate when using aimed fire. As long as I could see the sights, it produced very tight cloverleaf groups at 5-7 yards, and respectable groupings out to twice as far. Good enough for my intended purpose. Indexed groups were also respectable at reasonably close distances.

Due to availability, I'll probably use either the Speer or Winchester loads.

While I'd prefer to carry one of my compact/subcompact pistols, or one of my handful of J's, there are many times when I either don't feel like belting on a larger weapon, or I'm not able to pocket-holster carry one of my larger pistols or revolvers. The LCP will fill that role, and I'll work to maintain my skillset with it and continue to qualify with it.

Never thought I'd own another .380, though.

Never say never.

Granted, it's not what I'd want as a primary weapon if I were still being dispatched to continual calls-for-service, or managing a caseload where I was continually putting myself into stressful situations involving persons who might be armed, and who might be involved in criminal activities.

I'm retired, though, and I have much more control over where my daily interests and activities take me.

Doesn't mean I won't be carrying one of my larger J's upon occasion, or one of my assorted 9's, .40's or .45's, though. Just depends.

It's just that now I have an option to still be able to carry a weapon in circumstances where I otherwise might have decided not to carry one.

Is your carry gun a Seecamp? If so I assume you decided that it was enough smaller and lighter than a 9mm to be worth the decrease in power. My point was that not all 380s are smaller and lighter than some of the small 9mms. So as the original question asked, I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest someone looks at pocket size 9mms when they ask about carrying a 380.

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Not any more, sold it when i realized I hardly ever carried it. There's a difference between suggesting a pocket 9mm and berating someones choice too.

It would seem many here can't see past their own noses.

It would seem many here can't see past their own noses.

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Noses? Perhaps.

Fastbolt, I've learned to dress around my carry weapons instead of carrying around my fashion.

Oh, and I'm sure I could shoot some of my 380s faster than the Kel Tec. But that's just because the 380s are all single action and the Kel Tec is DAO.

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so you are carrying a gun which you haven't mastered trigger control and giving up speed and accuracy in hopes that the slight increase in power will make up for it.

I think he was referring to the inherent speed increase in having a lighter/shorter trigger, rather than his mastery of said trigger. I also think (especially for pocket carry) that longer trigger is safer.

I think he was referring to the inherent speed increase in having a lighter/shorter trigger, rather than his mastery of said trigger.

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properly run a DAO won't slow you down (google Miculek) , so if he's going to blame the trigger and not recoil control for his percieved lack of speed and accuracy he's admitting he really hasn't mastered the trigger.
also I said and so it really doesn't what he blames the lack of speed and accuracy on.

mavracer said:

properly run a DAO won't slow you down (google Miculek) , so if he's going to blame the trigger and not recoil control for his percieved lack of speed and accuracy he's admitting he really hasn't mastered the trigger.

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Hmmm. Guess some guns are impossible to master then since I can shoot faster than Jerry Miculek. Of course I never really considered concealed carrying a STI.

I own a safe full of handguns. My carry choice is a Colt Mustang Plus II .380.

Lets tone it down, friends. This is getting snarky for no good reason.

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