Neverwinter
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You don't protect society by promoting incarceration over rehabilitation. His answer is still accurate.
Attempted armed carjacking at a church in Portland, Oregon
- Thread starter NavyLCDR
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I have not seen where any "rehabilitation" we do accomplishes anything beyond a "feel good attitude". HOWEVER, my question is still unanswered: "how do we protect society?"
I did not say "incarceration", I just asked the simple question "how do we protect society?" I still haven't seen an answer.
AlaskaMan did say "All I was suggesting was to let the justice system run its course. It isn't perfect, but neither is the lynch mob mentality." Two things: 1) No one suggested lynching. And 2) most people here do suggest that the justice system handle this, not the juvenile "pat them on the back and tell them to be good little boys" system.
Impureclient
Member
It's easy to defend them based on their young age when you weren't the one looking down the loaded barrel.
In a few years when they have gotten more experience, we will log into THR and read a post about how these children grew up and took somebody's life.
In a few years when they have gotten more experience, we will log into THR and read a post about how these children grew up and took somebody's life.
larryh1108
Member
How many times does that cute little darling get before he's found to be a danger to society? He gets off until he actually pulls the trigger? Maybe he gets to play thug until he turns 16 or 18 without consequences? Maybe he can only have 3 violent acts a year until he is old enough to know better?
Inner city gangs recruit the 12, 13 and 14 year old kids to do their dirty work because they know they only get slaps on the wrist or "help" until they turn 18. Children of predator parents do need help but there comes a time when they are beyond help. Repeat offenders whether 12 or 22 should be treated accordingly. Some kids have rap sheets longer than your arm before they turn 14 and then they (records) get locked up to protect them? Serial killers have shown to be cruel to animals as kids. Being a predator is as much genetic as it is upbringing. Add both to the pot and you have a recipe for a very bad adult. I believe a kid knows right from wrong at a very young age. That should be the baseline, not a number.
Inner city gangs recruit the 12, 13 and 14 year old kids to do their dirty work because they know they only get slaps on the wrist or "help" until they turn 18. Children of predator parents do need help but there comes a time when they are beyond help. Repeat offenders whether 12 or 22 should be treated accordingly. Some kids have rap sheets longer than your arm before they turn 14 and then they (records) get locked up to protect them? Serial killers have shown to be cruel to animals as kids. Being a predator is as much genetic as it is upbringing. Add both to the pot and you have a recipe for a very bad adult. I believe a kid knows right from wrong at a very young age. That should be the baseline, not a number.
Dnaltrop
Member
Grew up in Portland, and there were plenty of monstrous children in the '80s... and "boys will be boys" was the order of the day.
One neighbor's kids mugged another neighbors, and the parents fabricated an alibi to get them off the hook. Attacks, vandalism, Breaking and Entering, vehicle theft.. a steady stream for almost a decade until they hit 18 and adult consequences.
It made my day when one of the neighbors around the block broke one of the offender's knees sideways while they burgled his car.
I do take great pleasure at the lengthy sentences some of them are serving right now, but nothing was done about them until they became "productive" adults.
I guarantee you, there are some "kids" out there, so deeply evil, so disturbed, that there is only one eventual destination for them... and it can't come quickly enough. They will spend their youths sowing fear and discord and what they reap, they earned.
The unfortunate ones are the kids in the wake of such malcontents, who would otherwise be "okay" save for the urging of the bad apples, and we can only hope that something sets them straight before serious damage is done.
Recently enough. a large group of "kids" were attacking and kicking my dog through the fence, in my driveway, and their response when I came out to stop them was to tell me to "Suck their **** and what am I going to do? there are more of them than there are of me."
Thankfully a neighbor was mowing his lawn next to me as a witness, and I can say that I ran them off without laying hands on a single one. ( I may be crippled, but at 6'5" before the boots, I can sure as hell look scary when I need to!)
Even in an obvious self defense situation, I would truly fear the court of public opinion if a "child" threatened to blow my head off, and received an "adult" reaction in response.
One neighbor's kids mugged another neighbors, and the parents fabricated an alibi to get them off the hook. Attacks, vandalism, Breaking and Entering, vehicle theft.. a steady stream for almost a decade until they hit 18 and adult consequences.
It made my day when one of the neighbors around the block broke one of the offender's knees sideways while they burgled his car.
I do take great pleasure at the lengthy sentences some of them are serving right now, but nothing was done about them until they became "productive" adults.
I guarantee you, there are some "kids" out there, so deeply evil, so disturbed, that there is only one eventual destination for them... and it can't come quickly enough. They will spend their youths sowing fear and discord and what they reap, they earned.
The unfortunate ones are the kids in the wake of such malcontents, who would otherwise be "okay" save for the urging of the bad apples, and we can only hope that something sets them straight before serious damage is done.
Recently enough. a large group of "kids" were attacking and kicking my dog through the fence, in my driveway, and their response when I came out to stop them was to tell me to "Suck their **** and what am I going to do? there are more of them than there are of me."
Thankfully a neighbor was mowing his lawn next to me as a witness, and I can say that I ran them off without laying hands on a single one. ( I may be crippled, but at 6'5" before the boots, I can sure as hell look scary when I need to!)
Even in an obvious self defense situation, I would truly fear the court of public opinion if a "child" threatened to blow my head off, and received an "adult" reaction in response.
On the local news this evening they reported this is not the first problem the 11yo has had. He has vandalized homes, cars, and businesses in the area. He has threatened neighbors with knives. It is clear this young man needs some serious correction that his parents seem unable to provide. I agree we need to try to stop the behavior through whatever means necessary. It may require him to be locked up for a while. This law preventing children under 12 from being arrested is just wrong imo.
NavyLCDR
member
And the police would probably be knocking on my door to answer the complaint as to why I threatened the little angel with a gun. Unfortunately, when you are faced with midget criminals like this, you are just going to be wrong (polite word) no matter what you do. I would rather be faced with a punk who is over the age of 18.
Dnaltrop
Member
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Boy-...istory-of-neighborhood-trouble-182916141.html
There's one of the updated articles.
"A neighbor, Naomi Solomon, said she too has had trouble with the boy.
"He asked me for money and stuff like that, and I told him I would call the cops," she said.
Solomon said the boy confronts her whenever he sees her walking past his home and he threatens her when she won't give him money.
"He said he would hurt me," Solomon said.
A dentist, Dr. Ed Hagen, who works right next to the crime scene, also said he had trouble with the 11-year-old a weekend before the attempted carjacking.
"He and a few of his friends even threw rocks through my dental office building," Hagen said.
Hagen said he's more concerned about the grade-schooler's future than he is about the glass that he's already replaced."
Here's another, bit more information here from the Oregonian.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/12/neighbors_describe_11-year-old.html
"Residents of the Rosewood area said the 11-year-old is notorious for bothering younger children, causing vandalism to church and other business property, shoplifting at nearby stores, trespassing at a nearby apartment complex and boasting about his access to a gun.
Garrett, the woman who accused the 11-year-old of threatening her with the gun, told The Oregonian Monday that the boy's father started swearing at police after they responded to Saturday's call.
"He was screaming at the cops, saying he has a right to know why his son was in the back of a cop car," Garrett said."
There's one of the updated articles.
"A neighbor, Naomi Solomon, said she too has had trouble with the boy.
"He asked me for money and stuff like that, and I told him I would call the cops," she said.
Solomon said the boy confronts her whenever he sees her walking past his home and he threatens her when she won't give him money.
"He said he would hurt me," Solomon said.
A dentist, Dr. Ed Hagen, who works right next to the crime scene, also said he had trouble with the 11-year-old a weekend before the attempted carjacking.
"He and a few of his friends even threw rocks through my dental office building," Hagen said.
Hagen said he's more concerned about the grade-schooler's future than he is about the glass that he's already replaced."
Here's another, bit more information here from the Oregonian.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/12/neighbors_describe_11-year-old.html
"Residents of the Rosewood area said the 11-year-old is notorious for bothering younger children, causing vandalism to church and other business property, shoplifting at nearby stores, trespassing at a nearby apartment complex and boasting about his access to a gun.
Garrett, the woman who accused the 11-year-old of threatening her with the gun, told The Oregonian Monday that the boy's father started swearing at police after they responded to Saturday's call.
"He was screaming at the cops, saying he has a right to know why his son was in the back of a cop car," Garrett said."
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jfh
Member.
It would seem to me that this is a situation ripe for intervention by the State Department of Social Services (or whatever it is). I.e., getting the parents declared unfit, and removing the children from this home.
Does that kind of intervention happen in WA, and / or Portland?
Jim H.
Does that kind of intervention happen in WA, and / or Portland?
Jim H.
Apachedriver
Member
I'm sure that CPS or Social Services and the rest of them will get to it just as soon as they're through intervening with all those poor kids that are getting spankings.
Sorry, I'm going to be a pessimist on this one. My only answer to that question would be mentoring. The kicker is that it would take so many mentors to do anything to change the downward spiral our society is in. Kids today are bombarded with ads encouraging them to be selfish ("you deserve xyz product") and plenty of kids are just babysat with TV or video games, some of which have all sorts of mature themes. A lot of good folks that could do something are already too busy or too comfortable in their own bubbles. Another option would be to give parents free reign back to disiplining (obviously not abusing) their children with corporal punishment without fear of getting charged for spanking (MN has taken kids away from parents who were seen spanking their kids). Our society is probably the richest, yet we have the most people on psych meds. Our society has far too many problems to give a simple answer and solution.
In regards to the juveniles in question: In Iowa we can charge them and place them in a shelter or detention for aggravated misdemeanors and felonies. I guess in OR they can't do that or I'm pretty sure they would have.
oneounceload
member
Not when he was pointing his gun at me first - I'd call that the ultimate game of chicken
I worked for a while in a school where those kids who were menaces to society were sent from public school. I had the elementary class - kids from 2nd through 5th grade school-wise, some a little older from being retained once or twice. These were kids with rap sheets a mile long at the age of 6-11, including attempted homicide, arson, armed robbery, attempted bombing, etc. One got out of hand one morning and the on-site sheriff deputy removed him - he threatened to kill the deputy, and actually tried to get his gun. That earned him a trip to juvie; before they left, he tried to escape from the patrol car while handcuffed and threatened to burn down the deputy's house
He was 9 years old
Personally, they should have been subjected to a retroactive abortion, but there is no rehabilitation for these kids - we were following the law until they were old enough to be sent to a permanent facility
If someone is 11 years old and acts like this and especially has a substantial history of crimes like this, he is probably well beyond anything his parents CAN handle. He is probably that way BECAUSE his parents are incapable.
Can ANYONE successfully intervene? I have serious doubts. I suspect the best solution for all is to keep him locked up.
PERHAPS if authorities actually DID something about kids like this, they wouldn't get this way in the first place. But an institutional approach of "they are too young" to be punished obviously encourages them.
Can ANYONE successfully intervene? I have serious doubts. I suspect the best solution for all is to keep him locked up.
PERHAPS if authorities actually DID something about kids like this, they wouldn't get this way in the first place. But an institutional approach of "they are too young" to be punished obviously encourages them.
AABEN
Member
You need to watch the TV show on kids that KILL.
scaatylobo
Member
LOL
I was an LEO for 26 years and I can PROMISE you that when a judge lets a "child" get away with a CRIME - they learn NOTHING.
If you doubt that then go to a real court and see for yourself.
the "children" that were arrested for CRIMES,were arrested over and over again until they were old enough to go to jail and prison.
Spare the rod = spoil the child .
was a saying when I was a kid,it works.
And NO that does not mean to abuse anyone ever.
BUT no punishment [ real punishment ] means no lesson.
Getting shot by a child will not harm you any the less, and the really sad part is that 'child' will not pay for that crime.
I was an LEO for 26 years and I can PROMISE you that when a judge lets a "child" get away with a CRIME - they learn NOTHING.
If you doubt that then go to a real court and see for yourself.
the "children" that were arrested for CRIMES,were arrested over and over again until they were old enough to go to jail and prison.
Spare the rod = spoil the child .
was a saying when I was a kid,it works.
And NO that does not mean to abuse anyone ever.
BUT no punishment [ real punishment ] means no lesson.
Getting shot by a child will not harm you any the less, and the really sad part is that 'child' will not pay for that crime.
armoredman
Member
I personally know a young man who will die in prison, serving a life sentence garnered while age 14, for Murder 1. He will die a virgin, never having had his 21st birthday drunken bash, graduate high school, or marry and start a family...and he's proud of it.
I refuse to work a Minors unit, as the laws regarding their "care" are very leftist, and require staff to get as close as getting hurt as they can BEFORE they can use any defensive techniques. These are not children in any sense of the word, they are murderous thugs that happen to be young.
Judging solely from what I've read here, the kid is actively supported by his father in this. Wonder if HE has a long record. This "child" will be in a Minors Unit in a short time, especially since he KNOWS he can get away with anything, being let go to his Dad for attempted armed robbery and carjacking, instead of facing any penalties. He will only be emboldened, and someone is going to get hurt, mistaking this thug as a "child".
I see the end product of this liberal chain of logic, every day. Maybe it works on some, but the ones I see, no, they STILL think the world "owes" them anything they want, no matter what it is, no matter who's it is, and everyone is a card board cutout on their stage.
I refuse to work a Minors unit, as the laws regarding their "care" are very leftist, and require staff to get as close as getting hurt as they can BEFORE they can use any defensive techniques. These are not children in any sense of the word, they are murderous thugs that happen to be young.
Judging solely from what I've read here, the kid is actively supported by his father in this. Wonder if HE has a long record. This "child" will be in a Minors Unit in a short time, especially since he KNOWS he can get away with anything, being let go to his Dad for attempted armed robbery and carjacking, instead of facing any penalties. He will only be emboldened, and someone is going to get hurt, mistaking this thug as a "child".
I see the end product of this liberal chain of logic, every day. Maybe it works on some, but the ones I see, no, they STILL think the world "owes" them anything they want, no matter what it is, no matter who's it is, and everyone is a card board cutout on their stage.
Dnaltrop
Member
The Dad was just arrested ( and yes Armoredman, he does indeed have a history)
http://www.kgw.com/news/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html
"Police on Tuesday served a search warrant in connection with the attempted carjacking of a woman in Portland who said an 11-year-old and 7-year-old boy tried to rob her at gunpoint. Around 11 a.m., investigators arrested Joseph Charlton for having an unsecured firearm at the home on Southeast 160th Avenue and Alder Street. "
http://www.kgw.com/news/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html
"Police on Tuesday served a search warrant in connection with the attempted carjacking of a woman in Portland who said an 11-year-old and 7-year-old boy tried to rob her at gunpoint. Around 11 a.m., investigators arrested Joseph Charlton for having an unsecured firearm at the home on Southeast 160th Avenue and Alder Street. "
larryh1108
Member
I suggest that if any child is released to his parents after he commits a violent crime then the parents will be held accountable for any further actions done by the child. They take responsibility for him, they take responsibility for his actions. Simple, they do the time for his crimes. Parents should also have the ability to decline to take the child home because they know he will continue with his violent ways. If the parents don't think he can be rehabilitated then the courts should decide the punishment. That should sort out those who were misguided for a moment from the habitual criminals who believe their gang is better than their home.
NavyLCDR
member
From the last article linked to:
"But a judge could decide at a later date to jail the juveniles, if it is deemed in the best interest of the kids."
Send them to jail for their own protection. One of these days they are going to commit another violent crime against a person who is willing to defend themselves with their own gun.
"But a judge could decide at a later date to jail the juveniles, if it is deemed in the best interest of the kids."
Send them to jail for their own protection. One of these days they are going to commit another violent crime against a person who is willing to defend themselves with their own gun.
Dnaltrop
Member
Looks like an interview before the Father's arrest.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Atte...rying-to-get-son-on-right-path-182934111.html
""My son basically ran and tried to chase after him to try to get it back from him," the father said. "Once they got outside, apparently she was sitting outside, the younger kid had approached her and started making reference to the gun of some sort. ... My boy didn't actually realize what he was saying to her and he turned around and all he heard was 'show her the piece, show her the piece' and he said, 'Shut up, you're being stupid.'"
and
""I've done this for 25 years, and I've never heard of anything like this before," said Portland Police Bureau Lt. Frank Gorgoni, who hoped his presence at the Centennial Community Association meeting could calm homeowners' concerns.
"Every officer knows where these kids live, the address of the houses, there's an extra patrol," he told the crowd.
What he heard, though, were new stories of neighbors' run-ins with the same 11-year-old accused in Saturday's attempted carjacking outside the Freedom Foursquare Church, including what Leslie Hendrix said happened when the boy stole her son's scooter.
"He actually came back a week later and kind of flashed a knife at my husband," she said."
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html
Kids are in protective custody now as well.
"Charlton was arrested Tuesday morning for having an unsecured firearm at their home on SE 160th Avenue and Alder Street. The Oregon Department of Human Services also took the 11-year-old boy into protective custody, along with a 4-year-old girl and 9-year-old boy who were in the home.
Neighbors said the 11-year old often bragged about having access to a gun. "He's told my brother, he's told other kids around the apartments around here that his dad had a gun and he could get a hold of it anytime he wanted to. And obviously, it happened," said Audryanna Waldron, who lives nearby."
"Charlton (pictured at left in a 2007 mug shot) has a criminal record as well. He was convicted in the past of assault, DUII and driving with a suspended license.
Charlton is the first person to be arrested under a new Portland city ordinance prohibiting adults from leaving unsecured firearms where minors can access them."
http://www.katu.com/news/local/Atte...rying-to-get-son-on-right-path-182934111.html
""My son basically ran and tried to chase after him to try to get it back from him," the father said. "Once they got outside, apparently she was sitting outside, the younger kid had approached her and started making reference to the gun of some sort. ... My boy didn't actually realize what he was saying to her and he turned around and all he heard was 'show her the piece, show her the piece' and he said, 'Shut up, you're being stupid.'"
and
""I've done this for 25 years, and I've never heard of anything like this before," said Portland Police Bureau Lt. Frank Gorgoni, who hoped his presence at the Centennial Community Association meeting could calm homeowners' concerns.
"Every officer knows where these kids live, the address of the houses, there's an extra patrol," he told the crowd.
What he heard, though, were new stories of neighbors' run-ins with the same 11-year-old accused in Saturday's attempted carjacking outside the Freedom Foursquare Church, including what Leslie Hendrix said happened when the boy stole her son's scooter.
"He actually came back a week later and kind of flashed a knife at my husband," she said."
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html
Kids are in protective custody now as well.
"Charlton was arrested Tuesday morning for having an unsecured firearm at their home on SE 160th Avenue and Alder Street. The Oregon Department of Human Services also took the 11-year-old boy into protective custody, along with a 4-year-old girl and 9-year-old boy who were in the home.
Neighbors said the 11-year old often bragged about having access to a gun. "He's told my brother, he's told other kids around the apartments around here that his dad had a gun and he could get a hold of it anytime he wanted to. And obviously, it happened," said Audryanna Waldron, who lives nearby."
"Charlton (pictured at left in a 2007 mug shot) has a criminal record as well. He was convicted in the past of assault, DUII and driving with a suspended license.
Charlton is the first person to be arrested under a new Portland city ordinance prohibiting adults from leaving unsecured firearms where minors can access them."
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Last week, the local PD shot a teenager to death after he had shot at them. His prison-tatted (on his face, even) parental unit held a press conference accusing the PD of murder....
Products of their environment, subsidized by the blood of bleeding hearts and our tax dollars. I spend 10+ hours a day trying to break the chain dragging down the next generation.
Products of their environment, subsidized by the blood of bleeding hearts and our tax dollars. I spend 10+ hours a day trying to break the chain dragging down the next generation.
oneounceload
member
Seriously? Think about it - they didn't take any responsibility in breeding the young "misguided" youth in the first place. IF he even has some form of a parent not dead or in jail, they most likely don't even know where he is at any give moment
This is the result of a societal shift away from being responsible and suffering the consequences to one of "it's not your fault" mentality
larryh1108
Member
So they should not accept taking him back if they have to do the time for his actions. Simple! Releasing a violent juvenile to his parents is like putting the chicken back into the henhouse with the fox still inside. Someone needs to be accountable. Make it the people or person who takes him in after committing a violent act. I don't believe no one is responsible while the general public is in danger. Someone has to be accountable.
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