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Attempted armed carjacking at a church in Portland, Oregon

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by NavyLCDR, Dec 10, 2012.

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  1. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    This is exactly why we need to carry and be ready to use our gun to defend ourselves, the police sometimes will do absolutely nothing to ensure our safety:

    http://www.king5.com/news/local/Two...-attempted-robbery-carjacking--182752311.html

    Here's the kicker. Several Federal and State felonies committed by the criminals and whomever they obtained the gun from. So what happens to the criminals?

     
  2. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Any idea how high you'd be strung up for shooting an 11 and 7 year old?
     
  3. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Is self defense not allowed because the person telling you they are going to blow your brains out with the gun in their possession is a minor? What is the age limit? What if the kid was 15 or 17?

    How should an armed citizen proceed in a situation like this? Does the situation change if the criminals are two 200lb guys with tattoos and piercings in the exact same situation?

    What would have happened if the 11 year old took the gun to school for show and tell or to use as a prop in a school play? I guarantee then, with no criminal intent shown, that there would be much more action taken than the child was released to his parents. Or, what if he took the gun to school and was showing it to other children and telling them "Give me your lunch money or I will blow your brains out?"
     
  4. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    There's no age limit or requirement in self-defense cases, in Arizona at least. The problem would be convincing a jury that an 11 year old boy was a deadly threat to a grown man. Even knowing he had a gun, put yourself in that courtroom. The kid will be crying, obviously afraid. He won't be cocky or menacing, he'll be hunched forward, and look small and anything but dangerous. You would have your work cut out for you.
     
  5. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Exactly. The problem is getting anyone to believe you. No matter how many kids murder, a lot of folks simply cannot accept that it's a possibility or that a grown adult had no other option but to shoot. It's a real nightmare scenario either way. And the fact that the police just returned Jr. home (twice) is not a comfort.

    It's the one situation where I might just risk it and try to disarm him. Hoping of course that he doesn't know how to use the thing.
     
  6. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Feel bad,BUT

    I would truly feel very bad if I was put in a situation where I might have to shoot a youth.

    Been there and felt terrible,but she had a knife and she was about to slice/stab me.

    Yes,she did drop it a few feet from my muzzle.

    And yes I would have fired,I am sure.

    But feel good about it - no,not ever.

    I know rule #1 and that is "I go home in one piece".

    I did not change my mind when I took off the duty belt for good.

    SO,given NO CHOICE = shoot and be tried by twelve - rather than carried by 6.
     
  7. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    Absolutely correct on all points. I know the juvenile justice system prefers diversion and informal counseling, but it was attempted armed robbery, not petty shoplifting. The parents seem unlikely to be doing a great job...
     
  8. ATBackPackin

    ATBackPackin Member

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    Sounds like to me that this may be part of some gang initiation. I cannot believe they gave the 11 year old back to his parents........for the second time. I wish I could say it is unbelievable, but unfortunately it is very believable.

    Shawn
     
  9. AlaskaMan

    AlaskaMan Member

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    Glad that the responding officers did not have to use deadly force.

    Sounds like there is a lot of info yet to be generated on this. Returning kids to the parents is a commonly used technique. There are some great foster homes out there, but some truly horrible ones as well. Makes me wonder if the home situation for the 11 year old is abusive or worse.

    Give them time to work it out. Just because the information is not publicly available doesn't mean there is some sort of conspiracy. Juvenile proceedings are played close to the chest and there probably won't be much more available about this.

    If someone presents themselves as a real, credible threat I'm pretty likely to believe them. Whether they are 11 years old or a 92 year old great grandmother won't matter. The officer in this case believed the kid was a threat, he stopped the kid before he could pull out the gun. The kid cannot realize the consequences of his actions in not following police commands. The officers didn't hang out behind cover and give commands over a P/A.

    Kudos to the police for taking a risk to save a kid.
     
  10. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    I believe this is part of the problem. How about calling a spade a spade? Kudos to the police for taking a risk to save an ARMED CRIMINAL.
     
  11. AlaskaMan

    AlaskaMan Member

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    Somebody will probably disagree with this, so go ahead...

    I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL. I will consider them a child in need of help.
     
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    They are really both at the same time. But when you're talking about pre-teens in particular, the responsibility lies with the very homes they sent these miscreants back to.
     
  13. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    100% +1 on that. It sounds like the 11 year old for sure needs a new home . (as does the 7 year old if he lives there also) My good friends grandaughter kept getting in trouble and she was pre-teen. From 9 years old she was out of control.

    They finaly had to take her from her mother and make her a ward of the state. I don't pretend to know what the hell happens that makes these kids that way, but a loaded gun should be a clear sign the situation is dangerous and something needs to be done besides sending them home with a scolding.
     
  14. smallbore

    smallbore Member

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    Does Portland have a 'non-arrest' policy when it comes to minors in possession of a firearm?
     
  15. wannabeagunsmith

    wannabeagunsmith Member

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    Well, just cause they got lucky this time dosen't mean 5-10-20+ years down the road they will.
     
  16. TheCracker

    TheCracker Member

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    This type of bleeding heart attitude is why we have laws not allowing the police to incarcerate juveniles. I say forget that. The cops should have taken no risk if they in fact did. These kids are typical rats that will end up selling dope and or murdering someone and end up being a leach on society as they are fed, housed and taken care of by tax payers when they finally get locked up as an adult.

    They are a product of their upbringing and should be treated like the dangerous animals that they are.

    Obviously their parents have zero control since the kid had to be caught again. They should lock the parents and kids up for a VERY long time IMO.
     
  17. TheCracker

    TheCracker Member

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    Good luck with that when they are trying to rob or kill you for kicks or a gang initiation. Some kids are not brought up to value life a normal folks do. They would just assume to kill you for the $50 in your pocket than get help.

    Sorry but if a 7 year old point a gun at me and tells me they are going to blow my head off I will believe them and take appropriate action just as quick as I would a 27 year old.

    Yes I have kids, and a 7 and 11 year old sure as heck knows better.
     
  18. Ken451

    Ken451 Member

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    I'm sure that is going to accomplish a lot....

    Anyone want to bet the kids were back out on the streets before the cops finished their paperwork?

    How do you know that someone (besides the kids) committed felonies? Maybe the kids stole the gun. Should the victim of the robbery be locked up?

    You are right. Of course, the same is true for 25 year olds, 40 years olds...they all need help.

    Of course if you let them get away with things like this when they are 7 and 11, we can be pretty sure they will be back at 13, 18, 25, 35.....

    I really, really doubt that any "help" they will get will change their future, so the real question is: "how do we protect society?"


    -
     
  19. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Regardless of who is pointing the gun, if it is aimed at me, I am legally justified in defending myself.

    Would it be harder for me to shoot an 11 year old than a 25 year old, well, I imagine so, and I imagine it would be even harder living with it afterwards. However, I am not going to refuse to defend myself based on a criminal's age.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  20. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  21. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    I suspect that if you pointed your .45 in that kid's face, he would be running after wetting his pants. No need to fire
     
  22. col.lemat

    col.lemat Member

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    This takes place all the time. If I had the attitude its just a kid when I was in Nam I wouldnt be here today. Same thing happens today in Afghanistan. They dont even need to be able to walk to be deadly
     
  23. AlaskaMan

    AlaskaMan Member

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    Last time I checked, 25 year olds were not children, and are sufficiently worldly to form the necessary state of mind to be culpable for their actions.

    So lets lock 'em up in prison, eh?

    Especially when we have nothing but assumptions and guesswork to base it on. So lets get started early and lock 'em up now.

    There's plenty of blame to go around based on the very little information provided in this case. All I was suggesting was to let the justice system run its course. It isn't perfect, but neither is the lynch mob mentality.

    Tossing these children in the trash will guarantee the outcome you're predicting.
     
  24. Ken451

    Ken451 Member

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    Kind of jumping ahead of yourself, aren't you? I asked "how do we protect society?" I believe that is a more legitimate question than "how do we help these kids" by itself. If we don't protect society, we haven't helped the "kids" either.

    However, your "I'll never consider a 7 or 11 year old an ARMED CRIMINAL" demonstrates denial. They were ARMED and they did commit CRIMINAL ACTS. Of course in this country, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. But since they never get to trial, I guess you are right: they are never found guilty.
     
  25. TheCracker

    TheCracker Member

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    Well if the story is accurate, he told the lady that he would blow her head off as he pointed a gun at her.

    I try not to live in Kum Ba Ya world. This kid needs to be locked up. Period. The 7 year old with him very well may just be following. This little punk that has the nerve to come up to the lady while she is being interviewed is obviously a danger to society. He is roaming re streets by himself just after being apprehended by the police not once but twice.

    It is a shame that there are bleeding hearts that think children can do no wrong and don't understand what they are doing. Then recklessly pass laws that basically give them immunity to anything.
     
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