Austrailia gun ban fail

Whenever our laws are brought up it is almost always the ultimate example of "blown out of proportion"

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This is true. Ya'll down under are far from a total ban, but I dare say even further from the (somehwhat restricted) freedom we have here in the US.

There is just a fundamental difference in the way Americans view gun versus other "developed" nations. Self defense and defense against tyranny just don't seem to be valid reasons for most European-type gun owners (sorry to lump you Aussies into that crowd, but you know what I mean.) Sporting uses seem to be the incentive everywhere else, where here, the #1 reason cited is self defense/defense of family, followed by recreation. Hunters and competitive shooters are a relatively small portion of American gun owners.

I personally fit into all categories. Defense is my primary reason, but I'm also an avid hunter, have done competetive shooting, and casual shooting is one of my favorite recreational activities. As such, I have weapons geared toward all purposes, from a Tanfoglio Limited 10 and Armalite AR-50, to my hunting rifles, to ARs and other autoloaders, and a pot full of .22's that are mostly just used for inexpensive entertainment and practice (and pest control). I also collect military surplus, and have a rather extensive collection of pre-cold war era rifles from all over the world.





My hobby would just not be doable to anywhere near the extent I enjoy it anywhere else in the world.

Maybe they should have just banned murder. That woulda worked great!
Oh... and put up some signs.

So as I read the information on Queensland PD web page, it appears that ballistic body armor is (a) a "weapon" and (b) cost ~$150 a YEAR to license? So basically, they don't want you to have any "offensive" weapons but they also don't want you to have any chance of surviving an attack by someone who didn't feel compelled to go through the channels, obtain the weapon legally and who now, oddly, feels free to attack you?

Am I misreading that part?

your correct self defence is not a legitamate excuse here

unless your a muslim jihadist scared of racists then carrying a illegal gun wont get you in strife , even if you shoot a cop with it

MachIVshooter said:

There is just a fundamental difference in the way Americans view gun versus other "developed" nations. Self defense and defense against tyranny just don't seem to be valid reasons for most European-type gun owners (sorry to lump you Aussies into that crowd, but you know what I mean.) Sporting uses seem to be the incentive everywhere else, where here, the #1 reason cited is self defense/defense of family, followed by recreation. Hunters and competitive shooters are a relatively small portion of American gun owners.

I personally fit into all categories. Defense is my primary reason, but I'm also an avid hunter, have done competetive shooting, and casual shooting is one of my favorite recreational activities. As such, I have weapons geared toward all purposes, from a Tanfoglio Limited 10 and Armalite AR-50, to my hunting rifles, to ARs and other autoloaders, and a pot full of .22's that are mostly just used for inexpensive entertainment and practice (and pest control). I also collect military surplus, and have a rather extensive collection of pre-cold war era rifles from all over the world.

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Yup -- Australia has allowed itself to fall into the rabbit hole of incrementalism, in the interests of "civility," or "maturity," or whatever the hell they want to call it. But ultimately, it is simply another incremental surrender to the authority of the State to deem what you are, or aren't, worthy of possessing or being.


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basically our prime minister of the day was (is) a full blown hoplophobe (he has recently been quoted as saying that the gun buybacks / registrations are the proudest moments of his political career.

rumours are he already had the relevant legislation ready to roll before the Port Arthur massacre ( i lived about 30 minutes away at the time)

unfortunately at the time even though firearm legislation was state based (and still is), he threatened - coerced - bribed the states to go along.

these paybacks were paid for by an increase in out medicare payments.

let me tell you there are probably more semis and other firearms buried in PVC around the country than handed in. Alot of our shooters (the ones around at the time) are still very angry about what happened.

The younger generation dont seem to care as much (common theme?)

Unfortunately over here as well as our English based legal and political system, our overall apathy and lack of central lobby groups are our own worst enemy (not to mention the split opinions of shooters here, sadly).

The reason for your 2nd amendment and constitution never happened here, the closest we got was the Eureka Stockade back in the colonial days. even during WW2 we never had to fight the enemy on our shores (apart from aerial bombings etc).

Because of this our famed "she'll be alright mate" attitude works against us.

I hope your situation favours you better.



Dont let yourselves be misled by political red herrings!

oh and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Route666 said:

Basically all the licensing is around a "genuine reason" - meaning you can't get a license just because, you need to either have a job where carrying a firearm is part of the job, or get a rifle / shotgun (no semi-autos though) license for recreational shooting if you own land or are a member of a club with a range, or a license for sports shooting. I think the main benefit of this is that it is a big disincentive to people with a passing interest or think having a gun would be cool. The type of people who wouldn't treat firearms with the maturity and discipline that they require, like the type of people who shouldn't be driving cars.

I just wanted to point out that what we have here is pretty far from a total ban. Whenever our laws are brought up it is almost always the ultimate example of "blown out of proportion", which, with how passionate gun people are, is understandable, but being understandable doesn't make it correct. Once the majority of people get over the "the sky's falling", "the gubmint's stepping on the man", etc, etc and actually looked at what has changed and how to work with the new laws, it is not as draconian as it originally seemed.

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I dont think I'm 'blowing it out of proportion' when a person in Aus. cannot get a gun for basic self-defense...and it sounds like they have to make up a reason to have one for home defense as well.

I feel the need for a firearm for self-defense....I'm not sure how much more 'genuine' the reason needs to be. Is the Aus. govt guaranteeing my safety (if I were a citizen)? Of course no weapon is a guarantee but if firearms werent so effective, the criminals wouldnt be using them.

Edit: And after reading further, to have to pay YEARLY such amounts for the 'privilege?' Ack.

AABEN, you're confusing "Australia" with "England", so yes, what you posted was wrong.

Lots of good points by everyone! I pretty much agree with everything you've all said. I guess the perspective / attitude I have is, not that there is nothing that can be done to change things for the way I want them so why try, but rather that I do what I think is most effective to try to make the world I live in better in my eyes, but at the same time enjoying what there is to enjoy and believing that maybe those in charge aren't actually dedicated everything they do to keeping whoever they can down, but that they are actually trying to improve human existence.

This next bit is not to incite anger or resentment, etc, I think the main point of it is that this is a different place than the USA. What works there, might not be suitable here, and vice-verse. Also it shows that what has happened in other countries has less bearing on how / if / when / why the same thing could or would happen in your own.

As for not being able to get them for self-defense, my whole life I've only come across a handful of people here who are upset by not being able have a gun for protection. Those people, though, are ones that clearly want it so they can be a big man with a gun, disguising it as wanting it for a more noble cause. It just seems a long way down the list of necessities here. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe people here are really, genuinely outraged by it, but if so, they're going about being outraged in a confusing manner, and well, they deserve what they get by not fighting for it.

Maybe I've just been lucky, or my perception is bent and the world (well this country anyway) is actually a lot scarier than it looks to me, or I just think I'm superman or something. I ride a motorcycle though, and I know there's a heck of a lot more chance of me dying on that than because I didn't have a gun to stop myself from getting attacked, and there is a really simple thing I can do to reduce the likelihood of getting killed on my bike - stop riding it, but I'm not concerned enough with that, so I'm sure not concerned about anything less likely.

Honestly, too many people still smoke, even though it so effectively kills life (outright or lessens life expectancy). If they truly believe a gun will provide a benefit to their life expectancy, they either live somewhere pretty darned hostile or they have their priorities messed up. Two things I can honestly say I am glad I don't have to deal with. I have no objections to those with the right to, who choose to (or not) carry for self-defense, more power to you, and if I had the right or even ability, I probably would too. However, I think I'd stop carrying it after a year or so, as the inconvenience of putting on one more item would outweigh the benefit. I know, I know, you don't need it until you need it, and then it's too late, but if I did need it, and didn't have it - a) it would really surprise me that it actually happened, b) I would admit and accept I was wrong and c) I would deal with the situation in the best way I could.

Interesting point about those who want guns for SD want it as a superpower in Australia. That is certainly not the case for most Americans. I'm heavily involved in such populations and our training emphasis exactly the opposite. The TX CHL class makes explicit points about these sort of things. In training classes, commando types are shut down by quality trainers. Those with the highlest level of training and ability are clear about such.

basically our prime minister of the day was (is) a full blown hoplophobe (he has recently been quoted as saying that the gun buybacks / registrations are the proudest moments of his political career.

rumours are he already had the relevant legislation ready to roll before the Port Arthur massacre

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Sounds all too familiar. "You never want to let a crisis go to waste" Rahm Emanuel, Chief of Staff to President Obama.

GEM said:

Interesting point about those who want guns for SD want it as a superpower in Australia. That is certainly not the case for most Americans. I'm heavily involved in such populations and our training emphasis exactly the opposite. The TX CHL class makes explicit points about these sort of things. In training classes, commando types are shut down by quality trainers. Those with the highlest level of training and ability are clear about such.

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Yep -- the gun-owners I know are the most low-keyed, humble, and responsible bunch of people there are. Maybe THAT says something about the culture and quality of our country.

Also, my state requires me to buy auto insurance. I have to buy home insurance to qualify for a loan. I choose to have life insurance and (at least until Obamacare) health insurance. I don't have any of these insurances with the expectation or desire of having to USE any of them. The firearm is simply another bit of insurance for the direst extremes.


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It just seems a long way down the list of necessities here

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The overall violent crime rates suggest otherwise. Women are roughly 3 times as likely to be raped in AU as the USA.

If they truly believe a gun will provide a benefit to their life expectancy, they either live somewhere pretty darned hostile or they have their priorities messed up.

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That's not it at all. I live in a very rural area with almost no violent crime (bar fights and domestic disputes are about it). That doesn't mean that something can't or won't happen. My father also lived in a very rural, low crime community, where he was murdered while he slept, along with my step mother.

I don't live in fear, but by no means do I believe nothing bad can happen to me or my family at the hands of a violent criminal, and my 2-1/2 year old twin daughters are my world. Any person who becomes a threat to them may lose their life.

I have displayed a firearm defensively exactly twice, both many years ago. Once turned out to be some really drunk kid who busted through the wrong apartment door at about 2 am (his eyes got HUGE when he saw the business end of that stainless .357 magnum), and the other was a car load of gang bangers that had already driven by twice at about 5 MPH, scoping my place; On their third round, they saw me standing on the front patio with an AR, at which point they quickly accelerated and never came around again. Didn't actually have to point it at anyone.

The first instance would not have turned out to be anything. The second? I dunno, but I strongly suspect burglary was on their mind. I'm sure they were somewhat surprised to find a resident home in the middle of a weekday, more surprised that they got made, and very glad that they didn't try to enter the house.

The defensive firearm is just one more tool to augment defense, in addition to dogs, locks on doors and vigilance.

Being able to carry is way up high on my list of necessities thanks for asking.
No, I can hardly play "big man with a gun".
Being 5'2 and 56 kgs wringing wet- if I'm lucky, it comes across as little more than cute.

And yes, as a female living in this country life IS pretty darn hostile.
I resent the inference you know what I need to do to be safe.

Route666 said:

As for not being able to get them for self-defense, my whole life I've only come across a handful of people here who are upset by not being able have a gun for protection. Those people, though, are ones that clearly want it so they can be a big man with a gun, disguising it as wanting it for a more noble cause. It just seems a long way down the list of necessities here. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe people here are really, genuinely outraged by it, but if so, they're going about being outraged in a confusing manner, and well, they deserve what they get by not fighting for it.

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In my case, I am a woman. And I live alone. And live in a country with where women are attacked and homes invaded.

I dont think it's strange that I should desire the opportunity to more level the playing field, esp. since the attacker is most likely going to have one.

In my case, I am a woman. And I live alone. And live in a country with where women are attacked and homes invaded.

I dont think it's strange that I should desire the opportunity to more level the playing field, esp. since the attacker is most likely going to have one.

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As I went on to say, I'm all for it, especially when physical disparity is so great, like petite women vs overgrown man. I don't see the same sentiment here is what I was trying to get it with my blabbing on, even if the stats are such as MachIVShooter posted.

Spoken like a true Australian man.

Pfffttttt.
With a mindset like that I'd be moved to think you were a member of the Queensland police force.

MachIVShooter - I wasn't trying to say wanting to carry to defend yourself came from living in fear, just that in the bigger picture of a person's whole life, even in the USA I would imagine, there are other greater threats to life that people not only live with without having a care for, but even inflict on themselves by choice..

Interesting point about those who want guns for SD want it as a superpower in Australia. That is certainly not the case for most Americans. I'm heavily involved in such populations and our training emphasis exactly the opposite. The TX CHL class makes explicit points about these sort of things. In training classes, commando types are shut down by quality trainers. Those with the highlest level of training and ability are clear about such.

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Honestly, those people are quite few and far between, and also the ones who almost always lose interest in keeping their license and club membership going. They're not interested in the shooting, they just want a gun so they can be a tough guy.

As JFrame was saying about the quality of people involved in the USA gun culture - the same is true here in the sports shooting, and even farmer / bush people, great people, honest, easy-going. When I first got interested in shooting and joined the club, it honestly surprised me that the majority of pistol shooters weren't young guys spurred on by their interest in video games, but mainly retired pensioners! I found it odd at first, but I'm glad these are the people we have involved in it.

Funny how you are deliberately sidestepping someone who has been a victim of violent crime in your own country and who wants to see the number of those violent crimes reduced.

Willing to discuss the dirty laundry of another country and not your own is hypocritical in the extreme.

You have NO credibility here thanks.

The pictures of the guns in the junkyard made me cringe and rethink the meaning of life. :banghead:

*sigh*

I had a feeling it come to THIS.

Truly, I am not anti-male, fem-nazi in any stretch of the imagination but the Australian culture of male sexism has to be experienced. If only from a womans point of view.

Every day as an Australian woman, I experience sexual harassment of some form when I leave the relative safety of my home and venture out into the public.
I get loud, unwanted comments on my physical self. How my physical dimensions relates to my sexual prowess, vaginal tightness, how my breast size is relative to my capacity to enjoy adult relations.

I find myself to be on guard in social settings where men have been drinking lest they use the convenient excuse of too much to drink as an excuse to assault me.
It hampers my social interaction.
A guy with too many drinks under his belt takes far too many liberties with females within his sphere of notice.
Social conditioning and alcohol and lack of the sense of consequences make the male feel he's within his rights to put these these demands on a less than willing female.

Even with the lack of alcohol the sense of entitlement these men have is breathtaking.
When confronted with their inappropriate behavior they will argue the point with they thought the female would be flattered with the abuse.

*shrugs*

That sense of sexual entitlement and the lack of real consequences within the Australian culture is what leads Australian women to be the victims of more rapes than their American counterparts.

Ms Dragon,

Sorry you have to put up with that. It is just not right. I can't imagine having to be that uncomfortable in public.

Maybe SOME of the men there have to over compensate for not having their basic rights.

@Pilot.

Thank you for you acknowledgment.

It's not only me who has to live this way day in, and day out.
It's every female I know.
They ALL have the same story to tell.
Statistics are all good and well but they never show the true picture.
Fore every sexual assault or rape that is reported in this country five to ten more aren't reported due to either fear of the aggressor or intimidation at the hands of law enforcement agencies.

The stats. give the smallest insight into the issue of assaults in this country.

This is where being able to carry comes in.

We aren't heroes.
We aren't rambo wanna-be's.

We just want to be able to conduct our normal business without the very real threat of sexual harassment hanging over our heads. 24/7.

The Australian government has no answers and every regional domestic violence / assault court is clogged to the rafters with cases and perps. who get nowt but a slap on the wrist for their mis-deeds.

Mayhap if laws change and rapists are splashed across the evening news with good sized bullet hole in their chests and decent women folk had the right to carry and protect themselves maybe the culture would shift.

In the mean time Australian women have a better than 1 in 3, or in my opinion better, chance of being sexually assaulted.