The forgotton 32 auto

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Thank You, Old Fuff. :)

I only developed the really hot loads as SD/carry rounds for my personal .32 ACP and to prove (to myself) that the .32 ACP is not/does not have to be an impotent round. It is not a powerhouse even in a hot hand load but is only outperformed by a 9mm round that has much more recoil.

I do not shoot them regularly as I would not want to risk my Colts.

There are several locked breech guns I'd like to use for expanded testing but most of them have shorter barrels than my control guns. Basically I have what I need to feel comfortable using this combination for SD in a BUG role - my Soul Mate carry guns will be 9mm as I feel I have mastered them to a sufficient degree that I can both conceal them and get one multiple handed hits while moving laterally to cover at 21'. My Wife and smaller, more recoil sensitive folks, will never pull that off with a 9mm and I think a .32 even with premium .32 SD ammunition is a good choice.

Sadly there doesn't seem to be any pistols like the Glock 42 being developed for .32 ACP but we can always hope. :)

VooDoo
 
snooperman said:
Research done by Greg Ellifritz, an LEO, compiled much data on people being shot . He found that the 32 acp had as many stops with one shot as the 380acp. His article was in US conceal carry magazine last summer. You can probably bring it up by typing in "stopping power with one shot" by Greg Ellifritz.
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http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

This study by Mr. Ellifritz has always been controversial as well as puzzling to me. Personally I agree with his conclusions but have always wondered why he does not trust his own raw data to come to other conclusions. Several of his charts of raw data show the .32 as much more potent in the SD role than most people give it credit for or believe it to be.

Yet early in the paper, Mr. Ellifritz states that while this is what the data shows he does not believe for one minute that the .32 ACP performs in reality at this level. And in my mind this throws the whole dissertation into the "subjective research" category and was one of the driving forces behind me spending a whole lot of time testing and making my own data.

He has accumulated the data...and then discredited it by subjectively saying he didn't believe it to be accurate.

My opinion.

VooDoo
 
.32 ACP, etc.

Vodoun da Vinci said:
I have done a lot of testing on factory .32 loads and researched a lot of information available online via Brassfetcher Ballistics, a fellow at GoldenLoki.com (whose information has now vanished) and stuff from other forums like at KTOG's various testers and .32 developer. My experience (my personal testing) is not documented except in notebooks at home.

The reason I have not taken the time to publicly document my testing is very complex but generally I have been "shouted down" by the Big Caliber Bully Boys so many times that I feel doing so would only subject me to a level of snark and criticism that makes the time expenditure pointless. My tests pretty much verified what is already commonly available via the 'Net if one Googles and searches.

I have settled on hard cast flat nose lead bullets which are Rim Rock Bullets 75 gr. Premiums...the same bullet Buffalo Bore uses in their .32 offering. I am driving them to 1050+ fps and getting 17" of penetration in 20% Ballistic Gelatine in tests I paid for at a ballistics testing lab which will remain un named. I used my 2 Colt 1903 Model M's. I have not seen signs of excess pressure and believe I can drive the same bullets faster, deeper, harder.

To be fair, the recoil of these rounds is almost identical to a hot factory .380 round from the same pistol...I have friends with .380 Colt model M's. Others have documented (and I have tested the same) of resizing 85 gr. Hornady XTP's down to .309 and running them very hot as well and the penetration and expansion ends up with deeply penetrating bullets (over 12") and expansion to .40 and even .50 caliber with excellent retention of the jacket and almost zero fragmentation. These bullets in this configuration would be awesome SD rounds in a .32 ACP but more testing needs to be done.

My point: The .32 is not only acceptable as an SD round but as others have pointed out might be excellent if you read some one shot stop statistics without the bias. With development? I think we have only guessed at how potent a .32 ACP could be if maximized and shot out of 3.5" - 4" barrels instead of tiny mouse gun barrels. To be fair, the recoil will be a lot stiffer but the results are still less recoil than a comparable 9mm.

VooDoo
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As I have said before, I have a Colt 1908 .380.

The only .32 ACP I own is a Kel-Tec P-32, with an extra 10 rd. mag with grip extension, which helps considerably in grip control (and just "feels better"). It is very light and I carry it in an Uncle Mike's Pocket holster.

My other main carry gun is a S&W Model 638, which is heavier than the .32, but I feel safer with, due to the more powerful .38 SPL. Also carried in a pocket holster, and speed loader in the other pocket.

My choices are usually: (1)Do you want to keep your pants up (.32)? or (2)Are your pants secure enough and need more power (.38)?

I now have a 3rd option - CZ-82 (9x18Mak.) 12 rd. mag (plus extra 12 mag), in a shoulder rig, if I have a coat or extra shirt over it. Nothing over the rig, back to (1) or (2) above.

Decisions, decisions !:confused: Any 2nd choices you have or after thoughts ?:)
 
What I get from Ellifritz data , is that there really is not a big difference in stopping power in handguns of various calibers because there are many reasons why the bad guy was stopped. He was hit and did not want to get hit again, or it was psychological and not physical etc. At the end he states , "carry what you want and practice with it and become proficient, caliber is not that important". Based on his findings and others, I can buy that. He also states it would be advisable for people to carry the largest caliber that they feel they can shoot, and carry adequately. For some it is a 32 ACP and for others it may be a 9mm.
 
The problem with the 32 ACP , is that because of its low mass , it is difficult to get a hollowpoint to open up at the velocities that we find in factory loads. With the new locked breech guns, the hot Buffalo bore rounds could make a difference. I have shot them and am impressed with results.
 
If you want expansion from the 32 acp you will have to get the velocity much higher than factory loads because that could be a problem for the many older blow-back guns that are in existence. That is who they are loaded for.
 
.32 Autos

snooperman said:
What I get from Ellifritz data , is that there really is not a big difference in stopping power in handguns of various calibers because there are many reasons why the bad guy was stopped. He was hit and did not want to get hit again, or it was psychological and not physical etc. At the end he states , "carry what you want and practice with it and become proficient, caliber is not that important". Based on his findings and others, I can buy that. He also states it would be advisable for people to carry the largest caliber that they feel they can shoot, and carry adequately. For some it is a 32 ACP and for others it may be a 9mm.
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Right! I think we may all (or at least most) agree. If you can hit it, punch through it, and possibly keep doing it until the perp is down, then go for it!:D I think there are several well functioning .32 ACP's out there. Besides the Colt 1903 (&'08), there were many fine European .32 Autos, such as : Ortgies, Walther (esp. PPK), Sauer & Sohn, and Mauser (esp. HsC):cool:. Astra and Star had their share, and I'm sorry to see them go. Down south, Bersa shows promise. Taurus has admirers and naysayers. Of course, everybody likes Seacamp. And the list goes on........:)
 
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There seems to be a lot of love for the .32ACP here. Maybe it's time for a picture thread for .32ACPs only, like there are for many other flavors? There has been some nice pictures here but I bet there are many more out there.
 
Greg Ellifritz study regarding the 32acp shows that 40% of the people shot were not incapacitated no matter how many times they were shot. Much higher rate than 380 calibers and above.
 
Lots of good reasons that the .32 is "forgotton" (sic). It is an inadequate round.

There are lots of reasons that many people consider the .380 the bare minimum....and in some cases, barely adequate. Because that is exactly what it is.

The one .32 I owned was a K-T P32. I gave it to a friend's wife. She is a 40+y.o. sub 5 foot, sub 100 lb Filipino woman who has very little experience with firearms and is very recoil-sensitive.

Firing the P32 side by side with a P3AT clearly demonstrated the lack of power that the .32 possesses. Better than a .22LR, but only just.

Talk all you want about how a .32 felled Archduke Ferdinand. And remember that a .22LR has felled many a cow, and many a human, usually from behind at point blank (execution) range.

And then consider how many militaries or LEAs carry .32s or .380s.

None.

And there is a reason for that (or several, actually). And if you cannot understand or accept those reasons, then you are deluded, in denial, and rationalizing.

Feel free to continue rationalizing, but do not for one moment believe that your willingness to do so changes anything.

Sorry. Objective truth is often harsh.

And denial is always easy.
 
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Well, thanks for the reality check. :eek:

Great pix. We had another picture thread on the .32 guns a while back but I never get tired of seeing them. I have a line on a Beretta 82 that is burning a hole in my head but I just spent the funds on a Glock 42 for Mama.

I need to take some glamor pix of my Colts....until then:

Colt1903and1911_zpsa200a184.jpg

PointShooting_zps65bfc96e.jpg

VooDoo
 
Inadequate round? Ha! All in context. It's a GREAT round for small game, especially with Silvertips. Gold Dots, or XTP's. For true pocket pistols, that fit in a pocket, or people that just don't like the jolt of a .380. Myself, I just like the GUNS. So many cool pistols designs. Oh yes, and they WILL kill, if necessary. This is a 50 yard target, shot over the bench. .........................
DSC05940.jpg
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Inadequate?
Perhaps, but it's been around for over 100 years and there are millions of .32ACP pistols out there. Somebody likes them. They are still being produced. The first number may not contain a 4 but it's common knowledge that most pistol calibers are considered inadequate. So, accept the facts that it's just more inadequate than any other pistol cartridge. I'll sleep well even though I am deluding myself. I'll get over it. I promise.

CZ70 with Marschal grips.

CZ70left2.jpg
 
And then consider how many militaries or LEAs carry .32s or .380s.
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About as many as are carrying the .44 Magnum, or .500 Magnum.

It's not just about caliber. After all, the 9mm Luger, especially in NATO configuration, is hardly regarded as "the best" manstopper out there.

The .32ACP and the .45ACP rounds have both been around for over a century. Don't "go there" about how one has made the other obsolete. It hasn't happened.

The .32 has not been "forgotten." When something has not happened, any arguments as to why it has are senseless.
 
Beretta Tomcat. It will shot any thing. I have a mag with FMJ, HP and Gold Dot. More mags than that I have bought over the there. Some guy talked about having .380. He said shoot one, drop it use another one then drop it and then run....

I have no problem doing a mag change on my Tomcat. If I can not put a bad guy down with this, I had better run. It is a always carry, but I may carry some thing else. Love my Sig. But can not always carry it.
 
Lots of good reasons that the .32 is "forgotton" (sic). It is an inadequate round.
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But only as a matter of opinion, and then mostly - if not entirely - in the United States. It remains popular in Europe and other places around the world. We don't see it here because the BATF&E's point system blocks it from being imported, along with a number of .380 pistols.

Until about 1970 it was commonly used as a police sidearm in Europe, and replaced by the 9x19 Para. mainly because it was decided to use a pistol chambered the same as sub-machine guns then coming into use.

In terms of popularity a type/caliber of a gun can be roughly judged by ammunition sales, and until the current panic the .32 ACP has always ranked somewhere in the top handgun candidates, even though after 1968 few have been added to the national inventory.

Sorry. Objective truth is often harsh.
 
"And then consider how many LEO and militaries carry 32 or 380." Well , when I was stationed in Germany in 1960-1964 as a Tanker in 4th Armored Div I came across many German officers in the Bundeswehr and Bundesgrenschutz that carried them. And today, many police in Central and South America and Eastern European countries still carry the 380 size guns. Research shows that more people are shot and stopped with smaller caliber handguns because that is what most carry on a daily basis. Not only in the U.S. but in many other countries as well.
 
Also, when it comes too accuracy, the larger caliber guns can not beat the 32 caliber handguns on the target range. Whether it is a revolver in 32 long or 32 ACP pistol.
 
Yeah, color me confused too. I haven't heard great accuracy claims made for the .32 auto, unless you mean the ability to get back on target in rapid-fire, due to less muzzle flip and felt recoil.
 
"General principle"? Well at the Olympics for many years the 32 caliber was the king in competitiion, and still is in European matches. Yes at greater distances than they shoot I will agree the larger calibers hold the edge.
 
Yes, they have matches where rapid fire is a part of it . Now in the Olympics the 22 has taken over and it is a different mix. In the U.S at Camp Perry the heavy barrel 22 pistols take the prizes that the 32 once did but that is also a different game too. The longer range matches are of course dominated by the larger bore guns.
 
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