.38 Special

Caliber probably did not matter by that point

I believe that agent MIRELES shot them at point blank range after emptying the shotgun he had used to end the shooting. PLATT and MATTIX were trying to leave the scene in their vehicle and were hit at very close range.

Jim

The round that stopped them was a 38 LSWCHP from a Model 13 as per the autopsy reports.

This thread has become an ego match. Sucker shooting people with any caliber firearm hardly qualifies as proof of balistic capabilities.

I tend to think that while far from unimportant ballistics, especially as far as handguns of most types are concerned is far over rated.

My line of thinking is proficiency with a handgun especially for combat and self defense requires more training than most people are willing to put in (including me ?) from my observations.

The reason why is because I am still convinced that whatever rounds you use most handguns that are not insanely large hand cannons have poor balistics and nothing, nothing aside from dumb luck or the perpetrator running away is going to make up for GOOD SHOT PLACEMENT SKILLS EVEN WHEN UNDER STRESS.

I can't remember the name of the Texas Ranger, but there was one that had taken down like 15 BGs with a .32-20 revolver. The gist being, is it is all about bullet placement. Then take into consideration that the .38 Special was designed to be used originally in a 6" barrel but law enforcement found it too uncomfortable for service and were ordering Model 14s and then sending them back to S&W to shorten to 4".

I have a Model 15-3 and it is an incredible shooter, one of the few I can hit liter bottles with, one handed, at fifty yards using most any SWC commercial load in single action. Granted I can do this with my 19-4 with a 6" barrel but you get the gist (and my GP-100 6").

You put a SWC through a heart or spine, your in good, but you only have six hots to make this happen. The BGs nowadays won't hesitate to spray and pray with a semi-auto and gun fighting requires moving and shooting to minimize one's self as a standing target or easy to acquire target.

Take into account the .38 Special doesn't do anything the 9mm doesn't and 9mm +P loads can get within spitting distance performance wise of similar weight .357 magnum loads, the 9mm is just a more practical choice as you can get fifteen rounds to nineteen where with the .38 you can six to eight.

I enjoy my Model 15-3 and if I can find a Model 36 or Model 10 with a 6" barrel at a good price, I'll get it. But when it's time for sleepy time. I keep my 19-4 4" on my nightstand loaded with .357 magnum as I can shoot this gun and load with great proficiency. In my master bathroom I keep a Glock 22 for my wife (she shoots it incredibly well).

I will teach my kids to shoot with the Model 15-3 if it is still around (God wiling) as it is a great gun and in a Mad Max situation I wouldn't feel terribly under gunned with it BU a semi-auto rifle. But given my current abilities, I won't load down to it. Now granted I may do so when I get over 60 (I'm going 31 in Sept).

What we are debating

I think the reason we are debating on the .38 Special is because it HAS FAILED EVEN WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE!

There have been numerous incidents documented and not just anecdotal tales of failure by the round nose lead slug.

As important as accuracy is, LEO shootings and self defense shootings rarely occur on a range with proper lighting, stationary targets and no distractions. The round nose lead slug became famous for failing in these situations.

I think that it just points that there is a certain level of performance called for in self defense usage.
The round nose lead has it at a minimum level. The .38 Special +P loads at a higher documentable level with rounds like the 9m.m. + P, .357 magnum .40 S&W and .45ACP hollow point showing a much higher level of success.

Of course, all these rounds have a higher recoil with the possible exception of the 9m.m. when using lighter bullets.

Most will have louder noise levels, greater muzzle blast and can be more difficult to shoot.

For me, the .38 Special has become a recreation round for the range. I can use if for self defense with a good load in a 4 inch or longer barrel with confidence, but I understand it is less efficient than my BERETTA 92, SIG 225, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 or WALTHER P-99.

As long as you remember the limitations, the .38 Special is a good round. Forget them and it can be a serious mistake.

Jim

Famed NYPD Stakeout Squad cop Jim Cirillo was under the impression that the .38 special was a capable round with the right load.

That's true of almost any handgun cartridge, but rounds like the 158 grain LSWCHP FBI load and the new Speer Gold Dot offerings, among others, make the .38 special (and +P variant) into a respectable defensive option. Much how 9mm NATO ball is not considered particularly effective, but various JHP 9mm loads are considered quite good, what matters most with handguns is that they're throwing a projectile that both displaces as much tissue as possible while STILL penetrating deep enough to reach vital organs.

The .38 special is capable of that. Shot placement, though, trumps all other variables and the .38 special out of a full size duty gun is very controllable, with fast and accurate follow up shots possible. It looses power in snub barrels, and recoil can be exacerbated, but it's still an effective round with the right loads in those small guns.

Sometimes accurate is not enough

One of the .38 Special round nose lead loads failure was a nearly absurd gunfight where two officers responded and were ambushed inside a house. One officer was killed at the start of the fight and the other officer fired off all 18 rounds during the fight. The fight took place inside 1 room.

At one point, the second officer fired a contact round into the forehead of the bad guy. He dropped like a stone and after a moment he got up again. The officer used his last rounds for a hip shot and dropped him to the floor where he eventually bled out.

The autopsy showed that the bullet struck the skull at an angle and deflected. It followed a path under the skin before exiting out the back of his head, leaving him stunned, but still mobile.

This has occurred before, I remember a child kidnapped who was shot with a .22lr in which the round did not penetrate the skull, but deflected and traveled around the skull to exit behind.
Round nose bullets seem to have a problem with deflection.



Jim

All handguns are marginal "manstoppers". Even the .44 Magnum has half the muzzle energy the ancient .30-30 does. And some folks have started to question (mistakenly, IMO) whether even that is adequate for deer sized game.

The bottom line is that weird things happen when bullets hit living tissue. You can choose the best bullet at optimal velocity and have good shot placement but nothing is foolproof. Part of the reason there are many examples of failure in .38Spcl. is the extent of use. The same examples can be found in every caliber commonly used.

I'm getting up there in the years, and as such, the +P 38 loads are getting a bit more attention from me than full house .357's, especially when shooting the snubs. Just the blast radius alone from those magnum 296 loads is painful. That blast slaps me hard in the face, it stings like heck. I don't know about other's, but it's funny how that didn't seem to bother me 10-20 years ago, in fact I often sought out that mean bark.

But the 38 spcl., won't ever lose my respect, I'm rarely without one on my person.

GS

Excellent post 1911 guy. Says it all short and sweet.

I think the reason we are debating on the .38 Special is because it HAS FAILED EVEN WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE!

There have been numerous incidents documented and not just anecdotal tales of failure by the round nose lead slug.

Click to expand...

I am confused as to why you are talking about "the round nose slug" when there are so many better bullet designs on the market. The 38 Special is alive and doing very well in the small frame revolver conceal carry market. There are cartridges design especially for use in short barrels such as the Hornady Critical Defense and Remington non-bonded 125 gr. JHP.

With as many ammunition choices for the 38 Special though I can see how a non-informed person can have difficulty trying to figure out what cartridge to use. For this type of person when comparing a box of 50 UMC 158 gr. round nose lead at $7.99 a box vs. a 25 round box of Hornady Critical Defense at $22.99 they look at the price and quantity differences and, lacking any information, fiqure the RNL will work good enough for self defense.

I think retailers do the customer and themselves a disfavor by not having a sign on display showing a picture of the different cartridges and what they are best used for (i.e. 158 gr. round nose lead - target shooting. 125 gr. JHP - self-defense). This would help to educate folks and boost the sales of higher dollar ammunition.

"The round that stopped them was a 38 LSWCHP from a Model 13 as per the autopsy reports"

The actual FBI Investigative Report lists the specific weapons, ammo, ballistic vests...even vehicles, of all those involved.

S/A Mireles used a S&W M686...not the FBI Issue S&W M13.

Thank you !*

*See posting # 99.

Sure GM ...

The internet killed it.

I still load it and shoot it.

I have an old M9A1 Gas Mask bag that I use to carry a few essentials some times when I am out hiking the forest. Something less than a day pack, and much lighter.

My .38 Spl LCR fits very nicely in it and the little internal accessories pocket holds a few speed strips.

There will always be a role and a place for the .38 Spl.

I like the 38 Special and I own eight 38 Special revolvers and three .357 Magnum revolvers.

GM:

Just noticed you'd subsequently edited...for clarification, your Post #114 referencing your previous Post #99 quoted below...

"That was Agent Edmundo Mireles with his S&W Model 686, but how do we know he was using .38 Special? The 686 is also chambered for .357 Magnum."

Taking that ".38 v. .357" question as a follow-on: Based upon the same FBI Investigative Reports I mentioned earlier while confirming Mireles use of his FBI Approved S&W M686, we do know Mireles...and the other agents, .38 and .357 revolvers were loaded with FBI Issue .38 +P ammunition.....

Wow, this thread has derailed.

The OP asked why the .38 Special had fallen out of favor, and we've wound up talking about the infamous FBI Miami shootout.

Interestingly, as already by noted by several members here, the FBI's own investigation revealed that it was a .38 Special round that finally ended that fight. The FBI Miami shootout post incident investigation didn't indict the .38 Special FBI Load (+P 158gr LSWCHP) form. That investigation did indict the performance of their 9mm Auto cartridges, and lead to the FBI's adoption of 10mm Auto, which itself subsequently lead to the development of the .40 S&W round.

So, the FBI Miami shootout confirmed that .38 Special is effective, and didn't lead to it falling out of favor. Now, let's try to answer the question of what has lead to the round in question falling out of favor.

I think the OP's question is interesting, because it is almost exactly the opposite of a question I ask.

My question: why hasn't the .38 special fallen out of favor to the point where they make them all .357s?

E.g. Ruger recently released a 3" barrel version of their ugly plasticy revolvers. The revolver itself is available in .357 with a 1.8" barrel, or .38 special with the 3" barrel. Why not make them all .357s and let people fire specials if they want?

My first "real" (centerfire) handgun was a .38 special. It was simultaneously a handful and not very powerful. The aluminum frame was decidedly not +p rated. A very accurate little gun, and probably ideal for my needs at the time, but when I got a trade-in model 10 I couldn't help wonder why they bothered to keep making the shorter chamber guns.

I guess the fact that everyone who makes .357 revolvers also makes dedicated. 38 special guns is evidence that there are enough cost differences to justify maintaining two lines, it just seems odd.

Ruger recently released a 3" barrel version of their ugly plasticy revolvers. The revolver itself is available in .357 with a 1.8" barrel, or .38 special with the 3" barrel. Why not make them all .357s and let people fire specials if they want?

Click to expand...

That's a good question.

I read an article not so long ago, where the writer said, "Modern light-weight guns have transformed the recoil of the .357 from unpleasant to downright painful."

He wasn't wrong, and a lot of people know that. I think that factor sways people toward the .38 Special when they buy a light weight gun for concealed carry, and the gunmakers give them what they want.

I own 3 .38s and 5 .357s and shoot a lot of .38 in my Rossi 92. I load a lot of light .38, either 148 WC over 2.7 grains B'eye or a 105 SWC over 2.3 grains of B'eye which I specifically load as a small game load for my Rossi 92. It'll do anything a .22 will and it's fun to shoot, very accurate, and reloadable. I'm finding more .22 lately, but there was a time that Rossi was my plinker due to lack of .22LR ammo.

I carry a .38 ultralite in my pocket as my EDC. I load 158 JHPs to +P pressures. I'm quite confident they'll work. I shoot 'em well. I take out things like snakes and other vermin around the house with it, took out a hog in my trap with it the other day. It's a necessary tool for me and self defense when I go to town, always in my pocket and ready.

I read an article not so long ago, where the writer said, "Modern light-weight guns have transformed the recoil of the .357 from unpleasant to downright painful."

Click to expand...

Truer words were never spoken! From a few first hand conversations I have had with owners that have the Ruger LCR 9mm it isn't much less recoil out of that platform than a .357! Too each their own but I don't feel unarmed with a .38 sp even if I had only 158 grain RN bullets. Not the best choice but how many times have they worked vs. all these posts about how many times they have failed!

sub-moa said:

GM:

Just noticed you'd subsequently edited...for clarification, your Post #114 referencing your previous Post #99 quoted below...

"That was Agent Edmundo Mireles with his S&W Model 686, but how do we know he was using .38 Special? The 686 is also chambered for .357 Magnum."

Taking that ".38 v. .357" question as a follow-on: Based upon the same FBI Investigative Reports I mentioned earlier while confirming Mireles use of his FBI Approved S&W M686, we do know Mireles...and the other agents, .38 and .357 revolvers were loaded with FBI Issue .38 +P ammunition.....

Click to expand...

Thanks, sub-moa.