.38 Special

[Gun Master]

Wow, this thread has derailed.

The OP asked why the .38 Special had fallen out of favor, and we've wound up talking about the infamous FBI Miami shootout.

Interestingly, as already by noted by several members here, the FBI's own investigation revealed that it was a .38 Special round that finally ended that fight. The FBI Miami shootout post incident investigation didn't indict the .38 Special FBI Load (+P 158gr LSWCHP) form. That investigation did indict the performance of their 9mm Auto cartridges, and lead to the FBI's adoption of 10mm Auto, which itself subsequently lead to the development of the .40 S&W round.

So, the FBI Miami shootout confirmed that .38 Special is effective, and didn't lead to it falling out of favor. Now, let's try to answer the question of what has lead to the round in question falling out of favor.

Did it?

 

[Sam1911]

Revolvers declined in popularity over the course of the decades from the '70s on simply due to the large growth of the auto pistol market.

I don't believe .38 SPc has particularly fallen out of favor much at all, seeing as it is still one of the five or six most common handgun rounds in the world. If anything I'd say it has retained an amazing level of popularity.

 

[Ed Ames]

That's a good question.

I read an article not so long ago, where the writer said, "Modern light-weight guns have transformed the recoil of the .357 from unpleasant to downright painful."

He wasn't wrong, and a lot of people know that. I think that factor sways people toward the .38 Special when they buy a light weight gun for concealed carry, and the gunmakers give them what they want.

But two points:

1) you can always load .38sp into a .357 revolver, and with two revolvers of equal weight, running equal ammo, the recoil will be equal even if one of them has .38 and the other has .357 stamped on the side. The difference is that it is safe to load more powerful rounds into the .357, not that you must.

2) Is .357 from a 1.8" barrel going to be tolerable where recoil from a 3" barrel isn't?

I mean, I could understand if they had the 1.8" barrel version in .38 and a 3" .357, but the other way around? Not clear to me.

I think most snub revolver buyers understand that the .357 and .38sp are related and you can "turn down" a .357 gun by firing .38sp It is easy enough for a shop to explain that to noob buyers. If they choose to get a .38 instead of a .357, there is a real reason (total price, availability in desired configuration, etc.), which would be the probable answer to my question.

I suspect that, even in larger framed firearms, it is still just enough more expensive to make a .357 than a .38 that it is worth keeping the distinction alive. But that has other issues.

 

[MCgunner]

I read an article not so long ago, where the writer said, "Modern light-weight guns have transformed the recoil of the .357 from unpleasant to downright painful."

I guess it depends on the individual. I have a 20 ounce polymer .357 magnum that isn't bad at all with a full power 140 grain JHP load. But, 165 grainers kinda hurt and my 180 grain XTPs I load for my 6.5" Blackhawk to take out game...well, I fired ONE in it once. Out of my 27 ounce SP101 with a Hogue grip on it, even that 180 wasn't too bad...bareable. The 140 was a actually not bad at all.

I fire full power loads in my poly .357, stick with 140s. I carry it on trips. Isn't totally obscene outdoors with no hearing protection, but I don't know about lighting one off indoors. I've fired a few outdoors to kill hogs with and I can still hear, didn't really have the ringing thing after the shot, either.

All in all, the .38 special is MUCH more pleasant on the ears and eyes. It's not the recoil I find objectionable with the .357, it's the muzzle blast. I hope I never have to discharge it in a restaurant or something. I usually belt carry it and pocket my .38 for back up, but indoors, if I had to defend myself, I might reach in my pocket first if I'm THINKING. LOL

 

[GRIZ22]

Gun master it was a personal 686. I stand corrected. Long time since I read the report.

The more important thing is he did it with a 38 special round.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

1) you can always load .38sp into a .357 revolver, and with two revolvers of equal weight, running equal ammo, the recoil will be equal even if one of them has .38 and the other has .357 stamped on the side. The difference is that it is safe to load more powerful rounds into the .357, not that you must.

The point is, a lot of people buy flea-weight revolvers with no intention of shooting .357s through them, and are consequently attracted to .38 Special chamberings.

 

[Ed Ames]

There is certainly a corner where it will always be possible to make a .38 special lighter than a .357 magnum. Any exotic materials that could contribute to a 13.5oz .357 could make for an 11oz .38. And if you could do an 11oz .357 you could do a 10oz .38.

But....the snubby world isn't completely dominated by that Ultralight corner, and .38sp is seen outside that corner - outside of snubbies altogether. That means the explanation for the continued popularity of .38sp isn't simply the UL stubby market and an uncharacteristic level of constraint on the part of UL snubby buyers.


From what I have read, steel framed snubbies are extremely popular and they average about 20oz. There are also still plenty of larger .38sp chambered guns sold. E.g. S&W will still sell you a 37oz .38sp in the form of the 67. For that matter you can still buy a new model 10 as far as I know. You can buy heavy .38sp guns from Taurus, RIA, and others. Those guns could easily all be .357 magnums without adding an ounce, without changing the recoil at all (because they will still fire .38sp), without reducing accuracy, without any down side. Doing so would have two up sides: 1) It would cut redundancy from the product lines. 2) It would allow shooters to move up to .357 cartridges if they wished.

If the public at large thought the .38sp was an underpowered cartridge that was OK in a niche position of making Ultra-light snubbies tolerable, those bigger guns would all be .357s. If people simply said, "I'm not going to buy another .38sp that weighs more than 15oz," those bigger guns would all be .357s. As it is, there are rumors that many of the .38sp versions are literally identical to the .357 versions except for the chamber length and side markings...yet people buy the .38sp versions. That means there is demand for .38sp and it hasn't fallen out of favor with everyone.

Given the ready availability of .357, that baffles me, which is why I end up asking the opposite question from the OP's.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I still shoot a 4" heavy barrel M10 from time to time. There will always be a place in my gun cabinet for such.

 

[Ed Ames]

Good example, yes. I have one as well.

Which takes us back to what I was saying...

The OP asks, "But how did the good ol' .38 lose so much respect?"

I ask, "How, in the face of an overall drop in the popularity of utility revolvers, and despite the fact that many of the guns in question could very well be made into .357 magnums by reaming the chamber, has the .38 Special stayed as popular as it has?" Because it is clearly one of the 5 most popular handgun rounds.

Top centerfire handgun rounds, as far as I can tell. Not necessarily in order:
* 9mm
* .45 ACP
* .380
* .40S&W
* .38 special

I base that on the fact that those are the cartridges most commonly sold in "shooter packs" or the like with 100-300 rounds in a box.

 

[BSA1]

If the .38 Special and the revolver have fallen out of favor they are fixing to come back into favor in California.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/2...ng-some-pistols-in-california-due-to-gun-law/

 

[Manny]

All my .38's are .357's, but there have been precious few .357's ever fired in them. I just prefer to have the option of using them, and in my CCW choice, the Ruger KLCR, I prefer a stainless frame over an aluminum one and like the slightly heavier weight as I use a Crimson trace grip and find it very comfortable to shoot with my choice of ammo, 125gr +p .38's.

As to performance, my preference is strongly in favor of .38 +p's as it fives the best balance of performance with low recoil and less muzzle flash. I have lots of respect for .38's, but I do avoid FMJ or RN bullets.

 

[BSA1]

All my .38's are .357's, but there have been precious few .357's ever fired in them. I just prefer to have the option of using them,

My long time opinion is the reason why small frame revolvers are made in .357 is mostly for the idea of using magnum rounds and creating more demand as they are in a more powerful, effective manstopper.

At least until the first time the owner shoots full power 125 gr. JHP's from a small, lightweight gun with a small grip that only allows three fingers to wrap around it.

Improvements in technology, materials and manufacturing techniques make building these types of guns durable and safe to shoot. What hasn't change is the "durability" of the shooter to tolerate shooting hot magnum loads in small, lightweight revolvers.

I would love to see a survey of how many Ruger LCR's are actually shot regularly with magnum rounds. Full magnum loads out of a 13.5 ounce gun that I can only wrap three fingers around. NOT!

Now load with some premium ammunition such as Hornady Critical Defense in 38 Special and you now have a controllable reasonably powerful package that will put all of the rounds quickly on target.

 

[Ed Ames]

I would love to see a survey of how many Ruger LCR's are actually shot regularly with magnum rounds. Full magnum loads out of a 13.5 ounce gun that I can only wrap three fingers around. NOT!

Not a huge correction, but, because I just barely caught myself before making the same mistake earlier in this thread: the .357 LCR is ~3.6oz heavier than the .38sp version. Call it 25% heavier.

 

[Houlton]

38 misconseption

I was the Senior Firearms Instructor with my Dept. when we changed to semi's in 95. Several Officers told me they were happy to change because the 9mm was bigger than the 38. Had several civilians say the same thing.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not a huge correction, but, because I just barely caught myself before making the same mistake earlier in this thread: the .357 LCR is ~3.6oz heavier than the .38sp version. Call it 25% heavier.

Obviously we need an expert -- someone who has actually shot that sucker with full-charge .357s to tell us if that weight difference tames the recoil and makes it comfortable. He should fire at least a full 50 round box at a single session to make sure.

 

[Ed Ames]

Obviously we need an expert -- someone who has actually shot that sucker with full-charge .357s to tell us if that weight difference tames the recoil and makes it comfortable. He should fire at least a full 50 round box at a single session to make sure.

Provide the equipment and supplies, and we're on. I've done dumber things.

Kidding aside, according to http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp the difference between the incorrect and correct weights is (assuming a 125gr .357 at 1250fps):

Recoil impulse: equal (0.82)
Velocity of recoiling arm: -6.51 (24.6 vs 31.11)
Free recoil energy: -2.73 (10.05 vs 12.78)

 

[grter]

Provide the equipment and supplies, and we're on. I've done dumber things.

Kidding aside, according to http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp the difference between the incorrect and correct weights is (assuming a 125gr .357 at 1250fps):

Recoil impulse: equal (0.82)
Velocity of recoiling arm: -6.51 (24.6 vs 31.11)
Free recoil energy: -2.73 (10.05 vs 12.78)

Those are impressive numbers but I must attest that I don't know how to translate them.

If you can tell us how your hand feels after spending some quality time shooting .357 magnum loads out of it.

I am curious because to be frank I have never spent quality time shooting one. Would I be able to handle a 200 round practice session with one. Would I be able to hanlde a 200 round practice session with .38 Special +p ?

 

[meatballs]

.38s are just fine. I got an old Smith model 10 snub that I carry. A .38 revolver is still an excellent carry choice.

 

[dickydalton]

If my SP 101 is on the nightstand it has 38+Ps in it. Of it's on my person during the day it has 357 Mags in it.
It's also a lot of fun target shooting with wadcutters and a bit of Unique.

 

[C0untZer0]

Not a huge correction, but, because I just barely caught myself before making the same mistake earlier in this thread: the .357 LCR is ~3.6oz heavier than the .38sp version. Call it 25% heavier.

The 9mm Luger version is the heaviest LCR there is at 17.2 ounces.

 

[Ed Ames]

The 9mm Luger version is the heaviest LCR there is at 17.2 ounces.

That matches my research. The main difference is that the 9mm and .357 use a stainless steel "frame" where the others use aluminum.

Those are impressive numbers but I must attest that I don't know how to translate them.

If you can tell us how your hand feels after spending some quality time shooting .357 magnum loads out of it.

I am curious because to be frank I have never spent quality time shooting one. Would I be able to handle a 200 round practice session with one. Would I be able to hanlde a 200 round practice session with .38 Special +p ?

The .38 special+p model LCR, firing Federal Hydrashock 129gr .38sp +p loads, has the following numbers for comparison:

Recoil Impulse: 0.59
Free recoil velocity: 22.51
Recoil Energy: 6.65

Do you have a load you can shoot 200rds of in a 13.5oz gun, comfortably? Or any weight gun for that matter. Tell me the specs for load, and weight of gun, and I can give you the numbers for comparison. Or you can DIY by searching for a recoil calculator.

 

[MCgunner]

I have a Taurus M605 Poly Protector. It's 19.7 or so ounces. 140 magnums ain't that bad, 50 wouldn't be a problem in it for me, but I mostly practice with .38 wacutters, reloads with my own cast bullet from a Lee mold. I don't mind practicing with heavy loads, but it's harder on the gun and it's harder on my wallet. The gun doesn't shoot my 165 grain load to point of aim and THAT one is a bit rough to shoot. I have to buy the 140 speer bullets I load for carry. I shoot a few now and then to stay in zen with it, but mostly my .38s are cheaper, even cheaper on powder as they only use 2.7 grains. They shoot to the same POA as my .357 load. That's pretty handy right there. I load a 158 SWC over 5.0 grains unique as a utility load, but it doesn't shoot to POA/POI either. It kicks a bit harder, though, which is good for SD practice. I shoot that load a lot in my 3" Taurus 66, a heavy medium frame all steel gun. I'll probably start carrying that gun more after Jan 1 as Texas' NEW OPEN CARRY law goes into effect! I won't worry so much about my T shirt riding up over it then. For now, I'll wear my vest (is long) when I carry the 3" gun. But, on 105 degree south Texas August days, I don't really like wearing the vest.

See, THAT RIGHT THERE is the reason for 2" .357s. The Poly is SO much easier to carry and conceal even if it gives up a few foot pounds to the 3" gun with magnum loads. It's still putting up 550 ft lbs, about TWICE a +P in my .38 snub. Yeah, I know, the .38 can giter dun, the .357 just gives me the warm fuzzies and I do shoot it well.

 

[SeanSw]

I've never shot a living thing with a .38 special or .357 but based on modern tests with modern guns, even those with short barrels, the .38 special appears to meet our needs for ccw. We both have a .38 LCR and find it has enough blast and recoil with 125gr +p golden sabers that stepping up to a magnum in that platform is daunting. Some people don't realize that the .38 model is lighter than the .357 version. I personally find the lighter faster loads less pleasant to shoot than the heavier loads in the LCR. The boutique variety of 158gr +p and standard pressure 150gr hardcast wadcutters are more pleasant and provide better penetration, which is all I can ask for in a 13oz snubbie.