kBOB
Consider yourself lucky, a jello attack can be worse than you can imagine. It will turn your spine into whipped cream in a heartbeat!
LOL!
I hope I did not give the impression that this was degenerating into the one of those name calling, arguments as well. So far, it has been one of those discussions the internet often lacks, civilized!
The M&S results do change, but I think that reflects that they use information that comes from actual gunfights which almost always vary widely when you start looking at what is involved. The enormous variability in people and situations involved make quantifying the information difficult.
How good or bad a shot the LEO or armed citizen is, how prepared they were, how aggressive the bad guy was, was the gun a 2 inch or a 6 inch barrel? Was alcohol or narcotics involved? Was the fight emotionally charged? Was it cold outside like in winter, when people wear heavy clothes?
M&S tried to limit the variables, which is reasonable, but that may have opened their work up for criticism.
One of the things that I have noticed is that NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE COME UP WITH THEIR OWN VERSION OF THE M&S DATABASE.
I have never seen any statistical numbers from Dr. FACKLER or his proponents.
Jeff COOPER stated is was his "OBSERVATION" about the effectiveness of the .45ACP compared to the 9m.m. and .38 Special.
Mas AYOOB has often written about individual gunfights (this is not a criticism) and his choices in ammo, but not released a numbers database.
The FBI had their analysis of the MIAMI massacre, but never released info from other gunfights, which is what is really needed. You cannot use JUST ONE EXAMPLE and expect realistic results.
This gunfight became a political hot potato. A training film was produced by the FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER after the shootout and was seen by members of my agency, but it was quickly pulled. Those who saw it (I did not) said it showed a lot of mistakes were made that day by the FBI. Still, the FBI blamed it on 1 bullet!
I still see someone, every once in a while, write about the great success they had in a gun fight or heard someone else had using the .38 Special round nose lead load.
So what?
M&S and just about every other writer and agency never said it DID NOT WORK ALL THE TIME. They said it did not work half the time.
The fact is that almost no agency uses this round anymore which should end the argument, but it does not.
Here in FLORIDA, with a huge population, we have a lot of killings and shootings. Penetration is very often one of the least important factors. The FBI massacre in CORAL GABLES, FL set off the penetration/expansion argument over the failure of 1 bullet.
Since then, I can remember at least 3 police officers who were killed because a bad guy was able to take their guns out of their holsters. No name calling or heated debates on this subject.
Holster makers made more secure holsters and NOW AGENCIES and LEO'S BOUGHT THEM.
Now that I am older, I am shooting the .38 Special more often than I ever have. I enjoy the mild recoil with standard pressure loads and only use a 4 or 6inch barreled revolver. Not having to chase brass is another plus.
The mild recoil and lower weight of the S&W K-frame revolvers sold them to millions, while the big N-frame .44 revolvers were much coveted, they never sold nearly as many as the K-frames.
COLT sold far more Official Police than the massive New Service models in .357, .44 or .45 calibers.
The point is that while other calibers are more effective, the .38 Special can be more fun. Also, you can count on getting most of your LEO'S to qualify on a .38 Special (or 9m.m. for that matter) than on a .357 magnum or .45ACP or now the .40 S&W.
The .38 Special was always a compromise. It is powerful enough to produce 3 out of 4 one shot stops if the ammo is effective like the +P hollow points with the longer barreled guns getting a boost from the higher velocity they provide. As long as you hit the target.
The real problem from this round is that some users are unrealistic. A 4 inch barreled, 2 pound S&W model 15 is going to be much more effective than a 2 inch barreled, 1 pound, model 36.
You have better control because perceived recoil is much less. This allows you to hit your target more accurately and recover quickly to allow more shots in a shorter time.
Add a longer sighting radius and higher velocity when using the same round and you have a more effective gun, but using exactly the same ammo.
Sorry if this is turning into a book!
Jim
Consider yourself lucky, a jello attack can be worse than you can imagine. It will turn your spine into whipped cream in a heartbeat!
LOL!
I hope I did not give the impression that this was degenerating into the one of those name calling, arguments as well. So far, it has been one of those discussions the internet often lacks, civilized!
The M&S results do change, but I think that reflects that they use information that comes from actual gunfights which almost always vary widely when you start looking at what is involved. The enormous variability in people and situations involved make quantifying the information difficult.
How good or bad a shot the LEO or armed citizen is, how prepared they were, how aggressive the bad guy was, was the gun a 2 inch or a 6 inch barrel? Was alcohol or narcotics involved? Was the fight emotionally charged? Was it cold outside like in winter, when people wear heavy clothes?
M&S tried to limit the variables, which is reasonable, but that may have opened their work up for criticism.
One of the things that I have noticed is that NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE COME UP WITH THEIR OWN VERSION OF THE M&S DATABASE.
I have never seen any statistical numbers from Dr. FACKLER or his proponents.
Jeff COOPER stated is was his "OBSERVATION" about the effectiveness of the .45ACP compared to the 9m.m. and .38 Special.
Mas AYOOB has often written about individual gunfights (this is not a criticism) and his choices in ammo, but not released a numbers database.
The FBI had their analysis of the MIAMI massacre, but never released info from other gunfights, which is what is really needed. You cannot use JUST ONE EXAMPLE and expect realistic results.
This gunfight became a political hot potato. A training film was produced by the FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTER after the shootout and was seen by members of my agency, but it was quickly pulled. Those who saw it (I did not) said it showed a lot of mistakes were made that day by the FBI. Still, the FBI blamed it on 1 bullet!
I still see someone, every once in a while, write about the great success they had in a gun fight or heard someone else had using the .38 Special round nose lead load.
So what?
M&S and just about every other writer and agency never said it DID NOT WORK ALL THE TIME. They said it did not work half the time.
The fact is that almost no agency uses this round anymore which should end the argument, but it does not.
Here in FLORIDA, with a huge population, we have a lot of killings and shootings. Penetration is very often one of the least important factors. The FBI massacre in CORAL GABLES, FL set off the penetration/expansion argument over the failure of 1 bullet.
Since then, I can remember at least 3 police officers who were killed because a bad guy was able to take their guns out of their holsters. No name calling or heated debates on this subject.
Holster makers made more secure holsters and NOW AGENCIES and LEO'S BOUGHT THEM.
Now that I am older, I am shooting the .38 Special more often than I ever have. I enjoy the mild recoil with standard pressure loads and only use a 4 or 6inch barreled revolver. Not having to chase brass is another plus.
The mild recoil and lower weight of the S&W K-frame revolvers sold them to millions, while the big N-frame .44 revolvers were much coveted, they never sold nearly as many as the K-frames.
COLT sold far more Official Police than the massive New Service models in .357, .44 or .45 calibers.
The point is that while other calibers are more effective, the .38 Special can be more fun. Also, you can count on getting most of your LEO'S to qualify on a .38 Special (or 9m.m. for that matter) than on a .357 magnum or .45ACP or now the .40 S&W.
The .38 Special was always a compromise. It is powerful enough to produce 3 out of 4 one shot stops if the ammo is effective like the +P hollow points with the longer barreled guns getting a boost from the higher velocity they provide. As long as you hit the target.
The real problem from this round is that some users are unrealistic. A 4 inch barreled, 2 pound S&W model 15 is going to be much more effective than a 2 inch barreled, 1 pound, model 36.
You have better control because perceived recoil is much less. This allows you to hit your target more accurately and recover quickly to allow more shots in a shorter time.
Add a longer sighting radius and higher velocity when using the same round and you have a more effective gun, but using exactly the same ammo.
Sorry if this is turning into a book!
Jim
