Chuck Hawks on Sub-Standard Modern Rifles

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I remember them being distinctly mid-priced. Minty used ones seem to go for about $1200 now. So maybe 50% more than the T3 he's poking at? In any case, we're not talking some $4000 custom no one will ever own.


Just like now back then for every exquisitely finished model 70 there were two dozen butt ugly savage 340's and handi rifles.

It's a myth that all these beautifully finished firearms were more affordable "back then" take a Winchester model 88, according to mr hawks himself it cost $140 in 1955 adjusted for inflation that's a $1200 rifle today based on the average 1955 salary it would take you roughly a week and a half of working to purchase one. Adjusted to today's numbers it still takes about a week and a half. A new ruger number 1 is as beautifully finished as any old Winchester and costs nearly the same at around $1000 again adjusted for inflation

Chuck like the true elitist he is is simply against the OPTION of lower priced perfectly serviceable firearms.
 
In case you missed the memo, he's not arguing about accuracy. Accuracy (at least at the sub-MOA level) is not needed or particularly useful in a hunting rifle. So saying something is good because it's accurate shows you didn't understand his argument at all.
So it's bad because it's accurate? Or is it bad because it's different?

Hawks is grumpy simply for the sake of grumpyism. When I read that article what I heard was, "YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!"
 
I read chuck Hawks and am interested in his opinions. But I realize that much of it is outdated and is just his opinion and highly subjective. I greatly disagree with his here say opinion on T3 for instance. In some areas I consider my opinion more valid than his. Most internet guru's have little more expertise than the average gun guy and many of them are real heavy on opinion and real light on objectivity. Others put a lot of effort into testing and research. But not many. Most are in between crackpot and expert somewhere. Anyway I do n't agree on this article but he makes some valid points. I like some of both.
 
I think this is a valid point.

The answer is that bluing and checkering have nothing to do with whether you can shoot a deer with the rifle. I don't know of anyone who claimed they did.

Perhaps a car analogy is in order. Every single car sold new in the US today will get you to work in the morning. Now does that mean that the Nissan Versa stick shift at ~$11,000 new is the pinnacle of automobiles, because it likewise will get you to work and it's the cheapest? I'd say no. There's more to a car than bare bones functionality. I'd like some ergonomics and style and pep to go with it. It's not essential, and money certainly is part of the story - I've driven my share of heaps worse than that Nissan. But given a choice, the Nissan won't be it.

The same goes for deer rifles. I can shoot a deer with nearly anything, including some colossal pieces of junk far worse than any rifle discussed thus far. But doing so is first and foremost recreation, and given a choice I'd prefer to be shooting something a little nicer. Bluing and checkering are part of that.
 
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So it's bad because it's accurate? Or is it bad because it's different?
Nope, it's "bad" - and I mean that loosely - because the Savage bolt is sloppy and feels like junk when you cycle the bolt. The fact that's it's accurate is irrelevant, since everything is accurate these days.
 
Nope, it's "bad" - and I mean that loosely - because the Savage bolt is sloppy and feels like junk when you cycle the bolt. The fact that's it's accurate is irrelevant, since everything is accurate these days.


You know what other rifles have floppy sloppy bolts when open?

MAUSERS real honest to God makes a Winchester look like a Chinese toy Mausers. Because the Germans already knew what was important in a military and sporting rifle a century ago and "feel" wasn't really one of those things.

I defer to Col Towsend Whelen over Mr Hawkes in that "only accurate rifles are interesting"
 
Who's making inaccurate rifles? I guess someone must be, but it's not any of the major manufacturers in the US market.

Fetishizing accuracy, especially when there isn't any practical difference in accuracy between the offerings, is absurd. Oh, and the 1903s Mr Whelen was so fond of weren't particularly accurate. Whether he found them interesting I guess is another matter.
 
Just like now back then for every exquisitely finished model 70 there were two dozen butt ugly savage 340's and handi rifles.

It's a myth that all these beautifully finished firearms were more affordable "back then" take a Winchester model 88, according to mr hawks himself it cost $140 in 1955 adjusted for inflation that's a $1200 rifle today based on the average 1955 salary it would take you roughly a week and a half of working to purchase one. Adjusted to today's numbers it still takes about a week and a half. A new ruger number 1 is as beautifully finished as any old Winchester and costs nearly the same at around $1000 again adjusted for inflation

Chuck like the true elitist he is is simply against the OPTION of lower priced perfectly serviceable firearms.

I certainly didn't claim that nice rifles were more or less affordable now vs. in the past. It seems to me the price in terms of inflation adjusted dollars or hours of work or whatever has stayed about the same - slightly over $1000 in current dollars. That's really pretty incredible when you think how much work it work take to manufacture one of those guns yourself, even with the best possible modern tools.

I think Mr Hawks' point is that that money is worth it to have something nice and the shooting press is complicit in playing down the difference between entry level and nicer rifles. I didn't see anywhere where he claimed people should have the option to buy the less expensive stuff.
 
We could go read the articles and come up with many. A perfect example is his appraisal of the 45 colt case and high pressure loads. He has a poor grasp on the concept and professed his opinion as fact.
You're moving the goalposts to a different article. I'm sure if someone listened to everything you (or me) ever said they could find an error too.
 
One place I will disagree with him is on weight. If you're going to actually use your rifle, that means carrying it. Light weight is valuable. In some cases that may mean plastic (or other advanced materials) are the right solution.
You're free to make that trade-off, but I don't think you'll shoot it as well as a heavier rifle.

Personally, most of my hunting is from a blind or spot and stalk from a pickup so weight is a non-issue.
 
You're free to make that trade-off, but I don't think you'll shoot it as well as a heavier rifle.

Personally, most of my hunting is from a blind or spot and stalk from a pickup so weight is a non-issue.


I disagree wholeheartedly

A heavier rifle will outshoot a light one on the bench over a course of fire.

But for one or two shots from a field position this advantage is simply not important and may actually hamper you
 
You're free to make that trade-off, but I don't think you'll shoot it as well as a heavier rifle.
Quite possibly, but two things come to mind:
1) light rifles can be made more accurate with a shooting sling, and speed slings (eg Rhodesian slings) are fast enough to be used in pretty much any field situation
2) inherent accuracy is not the primary concern when shooting in the field
 
I disagree wholeheartedly

A heavier rifle will outshoot a light one on the bench over a course of fire.

But it won't outshoot a lighter rifle the first two shots? That makes no sense.

But for one or two shots from a field position this advantage is simply not important and may actually hamper you
Sorry, I can't agree with that, a heavier rifle will be more stable on your shooting sticks or whatever you're using. I mentioned earlier I know a local guy who DOES hike 15 miles on his hunts and he still chooses to use a heavier rifle because of the shooting advantages. How did our troops years ago manage to carry a 8-9 pound rifle, plus a lot of other gear, and weren't even as big as we are today?

Back to the OP - since the rifle itself is such a small part of the overall cost of ownership once you include ammunition, range fees, optics, gasoline, hunting tags, hunting trips and the rest, IMHO why not spend a few hundred more for a better rifle? An extra $500 over 25 year's use is $20 a year, and it can be sold for more.

Interesting Chuck article here where he takes the hatchet to S&W. Agree or not, you have to admit Guns & Ammo or the American Rifleman would never publish an article like this, as they often seem more concerned with keeping advertisers happy than telling the truth.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm
 
Just for reference, here are my two rifles.

One -- the pre-Remlin -- is quality, made more so by my work on it.
The second -- a recent addition -- has a plastic stock.

I'm happy with both.

attachment.php
 
It means that your deer will be dead and on the ground before the theoretical "advantage" of a heavier rifle comes into play.

Dead is dead and a heavier rifle most assuredly won't make your game any deader. Toting around a bunch of dead weight may help your machismo but it's not gonna do anything for you whatsoever in the field ImageUploadedByTapatalk1448595549.368815.jpg

5.5 lbs and hasn't failed yet
 
But it won't outshoot a lighter rifle the first two shots? That makes no sense.

It's very possible. A lot of the weight in many heavy rifles is in the barrels. Heavy barrels stay cooler for more shots. So it's entirely possible for a light rifle to have as good a cold bore shot as a heavier rifle, but to fall behind as the barrel gets hot and the bore diameters expand.

Light barrels have other problems, like being more sensitive to load timing, but that's a separate issue.
 
So it's entirely possible for a light rifle to have as good a cold bore shot as a heavier rifle,
but to fall behind as the barrel gets hot and the bore diameters expand.
Right.

But are we talking about hunting or war?

I assume hunting, since Mr. Hawks doesn't review battle rifles so much, me thinks.

I'm only going to get one shot, maybe three, at game. I'm not so worried about the heat.
 
It's very possible. A lot of the weight in many heavy rifles is in the barrels. Heavy barrels stay cooler for more shots. So it's entirely possible for a light rifle to have as good a cold bore shot as a heavier rifle, but to fall behind as the barrel gets hot and the bore diameters expand.



Light barrels have other problems, like being more sensitive to load timing, but that's a separate issue.


Precisely and with a heavy barreled weight forward rifle you will be at a decided disadvantage shooting especially standing compared to a rifle with the majority of its weight between your hands.
 
If you like a nice rifle buy a nice rifle.

But there's no reason to destroy something nice dragging it through a briar patch or beating it against a ATV rack and letting it rust from the shower you didn't think was coming. ETA oh and blood stains bluing (more like erases) FOREVER

Nice rifles need to be shot not carried.

30/30 low wall

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1448596214.555218.jpg
 
Right.

But are we talking about hunting or war?

I assume hunting, since Mr. Hawks doesn't review battle rifles so much, me thinks.

I'm only going to get one shot, maybe three, at game. I'm not so worried about the heat.
We're in agreement on all that. Light is a good thing in my book assuming the other aspects of the rifle are reasonable and the caliber doesn't require weight to tame recoil.
 
I agree with his assessment of gun writers being shills for the manufacturers. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

My thing is why shouldn't there be the option of both? There are fine, well made rifles out there that have very nice wooden, hand checkered stocks and precisely bedded barrels. They are expensive and not everyone can afford them. I can't drop $1k on a rifle and I would wager that there are more people like me than there are people who can drop that much cash on a regular basis.

There are also affordable rifles. No they're not as nice to look at and they may not last as long. But a guy making $12 an hour can go to Wally World and pick up a Savage Axis for $250 and go fill his freezer. And that Savage Axis will probably last him his lifetime, as most people don't go out and shoot hundreds of rounds a year.

So that's my only thing. If high dollar rifles were the only option, many people would be SOL. I readily admit that budget rifles aren't up to the standards of quality as more expensive ones (most of the time). They're not intended to be.

We have options and that is a good thing. If you want a nice rifle and can afford to drop the cash there are plenty out there.
Why would you (not pointing to anyone in particular) care what someone else hunts with?

Go hunt with your $1,500 Kimber and have fun. I would love to have one.
For now, I'll go hunt with my no doubt sub-par in the eyes of Mr. Hawks, Weatherby Vanguard and I'll make the same shots you make.

And regarding the accuracy, I agree that you don't have to have MOA to kill a deer. But why wouldn't you want it if you can get it?

I too agree with Mr. Whelen regarding his view on interesting rifles.
 
You're moving the goalposts to a different article. I'm sure if someone listened to everything you (or me) ever said they could find an error too.


I'm not moving anything. I never once commented on his opinion in this specific article. Never. Not once.

I plainly directed my feelings toward his writings in general. Perhaps going back and reading my first post that you took out of context would help.
 
Sorry for the wall of text.

"Like many old geezers, I bemoan the loss, or lack, of standards in our modern world."

- I'd counter this opinion with my own in that the majority of the changes in the "quality" of consumer items in our society is decades long trial and error of finding out what the majority of customers want, need and will actually use vs what they dont. It doesnt help to make an over the top super high quality shock absorbing rubber butt pad if most shooters are wearing a heavy hunting jacket, nor cut, install and factory zero high end iron sights when 99% of customers install a scope anyways.


"Today, we are reaping the crop of sub-standard firearms previously sown."

- Not necessarily, the specific items and specifications that are measured to be the standard have changed. I.E. for an entry level or truck gun, looking like a million dollar rifle is nice (perfect wood, engraved reciever, etc.), but ultimately doesnt really matter for anyone with any experience.


"Most of the blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of the writers and publishers of the specialty outdoors print magazines and their associated websites... Often they have merely parroted the promotional flack handed to them by the manufacturer's ad agencies in their gun reviews."

- He's dead on here.


"Thus flimsy, injection molded synthetic stocks are praised as "lightweight" or "weather resistant" rather than criticized as the inferior bedding platforms that they actually are."

- Flimsy and inferior bedding has more to do with the design rather than the material. If you choose a poor example of a bad type of wood and make a stock out of it and poorly fit it to the barrel/reciever, it's going to suck too. If manufacturers actually invest the R&D into what a good synthetic material is and how to make a strong stock out of it with a good mounting base, it'll be every bit as good or better than a wood stock without being susceptible to atmospheric conditions, drying, rotting, splitting etc. And they can be much lighter. Injection molding is much MUCH faster and more consistent than even performing a rough cut of a wood stock.


"Free floating barrels, introduced simply to minimize the labor cost of precisely bedding a barreled action in a gun stock, are now praised as an asset by those who know nothing else. A perfect example of an economy shortcut becoming the new standard."

- No, not really. Granted, most hunting rifles arent going to be doing rapid fire. But even a well bedded wooden stock is going to be more susceptible to dimensional changes in poor or significantly different weather (and storage) conditions, age and even relatively uncontrollable material consistency than synthetic. That's going to change your POI from that comfortable sunny day some months/years back at the local club. Also, only having to mate the reciever mounting points in the stock to the reciever alone is much faster and more simple than having to bed the entire stock to the reciever/barrel. It just makes better sense.


"The receiver holds the bolt, which brings up a salient question: does anyone really believe that a cheap multi-piece, assembled bolt has any possible advantage over a one-piece forged steel bolt*excepteconomy of manufacture?"

- The only issue I see with this is possible design short comings. If a well designed multi-piece bolt can last say 10,000rds (more than most hunters will ever shoot through such a rifle) and a single piece bolt lasts 20,000. Does it matter? Especially if buying 2 multi piece bolts is still cheaper than buying one single piece and I never shot enough rounds to wear it out in the first place? Its like with modern cars. Why would I pay more money for a Toyota that will last 200k miles if most other comparable manufacturers can provide a similar car that will give me more options for cheaper that will last 100-150k miles and I trade/sell mine before they reach 100k anyways?


"The use of plastic for trigger guards and the "bottom iron" is overlooked by the popular press, or actually praised as lightweight construction."

- It should be. It is much cheaper, lighter weight and again, a well designed synthetic part will be every bit as strong as it should need to be. I dont NEED the trigger guard/etc. on my hunting rifle to survive being run over by a dump truck or dropped from an airplane. Those are standards you should expect for military equipment.


"In fact, "lightweight" and "accuracy" are the buzzwords most frequently used to "spin" hunting rifle reviews in a paying advertiser's favor."

- As they should be. Those two factors are paramount to hunters. Especially the tradional ones that dont wagon train their ATVs to the camo couch under a tent. Compared to older guns, they are usually lighter weight and at least as accurate as older guns.


"Cheap substitute materials are usually lighter, but not stronger, than forged steel."

- Because not everything NEEDS to be made from forged steel. It just happened to be one of the materials we had a good amount of experience working with back then. Its like comparing older russian aircraft to modern western fighters. The rivets and sheet design is rugged as heck, but is heavy and isnt going to stand up to a direct hit from a modern missle any better than a new fighter made of composites and glues.


"A rifle's lines and finish are largely cosmetic, but why should we be condemned to hunt with ugly rifles? Matte finishes on barreled actions are sold as a benefit ("low glare"), but in reality they are simply faster and thus less expensive for the manufacturer to produce than a highly polished finish."

- You're not condemned. You just have to pay more for the "pretty" stuff. In a lot of ways the modern finishes tend to be tougher as well or atleast dont make your gut wrench when you scratch them hiking outdoors. But not always.


"Have you noticed how the checkered areas on many wood stocked rifles, the Tikka T3 for example, are divided into several small patches? That is done because it is easier (and therefore cheaper) to cut a small patch of checkering than a larger one. The shorter the individual checkering lines, the easier it is to keep them straight. Once again, manufacturing economy triumphs over aesthetics and function."

- Well..yeah. That type of work takes skill to do. Good skilled work takes time. Time raises costs. (Lord, I know this.)


"Then there is the heavily advertised Tikka 1" at 100 yards accuracy claim. Experienced hunters know that such a guarantee, even if true, is actually pretty meaningless, but beginners are impressed."

- Well, that kind of accuracy as available as it is today and for the price it is. Is impressive. It's not totally meaningless, but the necessesity is a bit overrated.


"The reality is that big game animals are large and hair-splitting accuracy is almost never required. A rifle that will consistently shoot into 2" at 100 yards (2 MOA) is accurate enough. A hunting rifle that willaverage*1.5 MOA groups with an occasional sub-1" group thrown in for good measure (and an occasional 2" group, too!) is a good one and the off the shelf Tikka rifles with which we have had experience met that standard."

- I agree, but again, the fact that most hunting rifles are capable of such accuracy at the price they are made today is impressive.


"To add insult to injury, the Tikka T3 is designed to be a cheap rifle to manufacture, but it is relatively expensive to purchase. (Ditto the disgraceful S&W I-Bolt!) These economy rifles retail for as much or more than a number of higher quality, better designed and better turned-out hunting rifles. Their success is a tribute to the ignorance of the modern American sportsman, intentionally fostered by the connivance of the outdoor media upon which they rely for information."

- I'm not big into hunting rifles, but during a brief look last year, I agree. I felt the Tikkas were a bit over priced. That said, I bet they're still much cheaper than they would have been back in time.


"In truth, T3's are (usually) safe, functional rifles and perfectly capable of killing game in the hands of an adequate shot. The same could be said about most economy hunting rifles, including the far less expensive Savage Edge, Stevens 200, Marlin XL7C and Remington 770."

- *scoff* The sheer ridiculousness of such low quality, cheap, standardless rifles that they truly are!


"I suspect that most satisfied T3 customers are not "gun nuts" and do not have decades of experience with better quality hunting rifles. A person who has never owned a fine rifle is much more likely to overlook an economy rifle's shortcomings than an experienced shooter and hunter."

- Whats wrong with that? These rifles are more than accurate and tough enough for these "inexperienced" (*cough*uncultured*cough*) hunters to go out and bag their game over and over for a price point ONLY a step or two above mosin nagant.


"The relative newcomer simply has inadequate personal experience upon which to base an informed opinion. It is the job of the outdoor media (gun writers), who presumably have such experience, to inform their readers."

- Oh, I see. They just didnt get your blessing.


"Why has the outdoor media so thoroughly failed in its duty to its readers? The answer is simple and again the T3 provides a good example: Beretta Corp. (who markets Tikka rifles) is a big bucks advertiser in the outdoor media, particularly print magazines. Money talks and gun reviews are consequently tailored to please the manufacturer/advertiser."

- I wont lie. They're out to make a buck. That said, they also know better than to turn their nose up and alienate a large group of people who bought an entry level gun thats more than capable of doing what they need instead of spending decades slowly losing touch with the steady advancement of material and production sciences and combining that with research into giving a customer what they need/want at a reasonable price point in an ever expanding highly competitive market.


"What about the writers' and editors' obligation to their readers, who pay their hard earned dollars to read those reviews? Obviously, the word "integrity" has been deleted from the publishers' spell checkers."

- This isnt a new problem limited to only the writers of gun blogs/mags.


"That thinly veiled threat, in a nutshell, is the problem. Most of the established outdoor media have become little more than shills for the major manufacturers. That "two way street" has, in reality, become a one way street and the prime directive of most of the shooting and outdoor media is never to offend a major advertiser. The favored publications, bought and paid for by their advertisers, are rewarded with inside information and the latest products for "exclusive" reviews, while any publication that dares criticize even a single offering from a major advertiser is shunned."

- Again. Welcome to the world of business and consumerism.


"The print publications, in particular, survive only because of paid advertising."

- AGAIN, there's nothing new about this!


Making money and quality control politics aside. What modern manufacturers have done is found a way to make brand new guns generally more accurate, consistent and cheaper so that the "average joe" can afford to go out and buy one and hunt for a much lower percentage of their paycheck than back in the day. When you look at it. Pretty much since the beginning of private firearms ownership, even brand new basic guns have been almost prohibitively expensive for the average person. Most folks hunted with obsolete or surplus rifles to get by up until around the 1950s. The modern equivalent is the 20-something who cant afford a new remington, so he either has to get a used 20yr old model or a surplus nagant, etc. Then materials, manufacturing and firearms technology slowly advanced over the decades and has allowed the average hunter access to a large number of perfectly serviceable options for a much cheaper price.


A very simple example of this is looking at an old ad for a Remington 700 in 1962 had the price at $150. Today, that would be a $1,181 rifle. For a BASIC 700! You can get a basic 700 for less than $400 at Academy today. And thats in a modern world where the manufacturer is expected or required to provide such things at health benefits, retirement plans, holidays, etc. to their employees. All of this doesnt mean that the high-quality guns dont exist either. You just have to pay more for the more expensive materials and processes. Its not that guns have gotten worse over time. Its just that we have found ways to make them more fiscally accessible and still be serviceable.
 
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I didn't read ALL the responses, but I read many of them. It seems to me folks are generally focusing on accuracy as the only benchmark of quality. And while the primary goal of a rifle is to be accurate, it's not the only benchmark of quality.

One of the things I learned upon coming to Alaska from the lower 48 is that quality...durability...trumps performance every time. You can have the most accurate, quarter moa gun in the world, if that thing can't hold up to the environment, or if it can't stand the test of time, it's not a quality rifle. What good is an accurate gun that breaks on a hunt that took years to plan and save for, or on a hunt that took a week in the backcountry, rafting down rivers, to get to your management unit, and...oh look...my rifle is broke. Let's go back. When I buy a gun, I'm not buying it for me; I'm buying it for my grandson, and his son. I'm just borrowing it for a time. I don't buy guns that won't serve my family for generations.

You know, there is a reason people say "don't buy a Taurus." Or hi-point. Or Norinco. Or...
 
I'm not moving anything. I never once commented on his opinion in this specific article. Never. Not once.

You're moving the goalposts from the OP.

I plainly directed my feelings toward his writings in general. Perhaps going back and reading my first post that you took out of context would help.

Cite?
 
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