Advice from a LEO in my CCW class

Policemen usually do a good job investigating until they form a theory of the case. At that point their mind is usually made up and all the facts in the world contrary to their theory will accomplish nothing.

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Like in the Scott Peterson abomination going on here. On day one the cops decided he did it and were offering him a "deal" to not go for the death penalty if he confessed. And they then ignored:

* Five witnesses who saw Laci walking the dog while Scott was out on his boat, supposedly dumping the body. (Well, I shouldn't really say, "ignored"--they had them hypnotized by an "unqualified hypnotist" so that their testimony is now inadmissable.)

* They made a detailed survey of that area of the bay with high-resolution sonar, and found no body.

* Months later, a full-term baby (she was only 7-1/2 months along when she went missing) and Laci's body showed up right where the sonar survey had come up empty. (Now, there's no way that somebody outside the PD could have known that that's right where they expected the body, could they?)

* And now it's discovered that the police had interviewed an ex-cop who saw two men forcing her into a van, just has the defense has been contending all along. And all along they've hidden this information from the defense.


However, I do think that the best policy is to remain silent. To quote, as best as I remember, from the columnist Mike Royko,

"They like houses that 'make a statement.' I hate things that 'make statements.' I used to write for the murder beat. The chief would say, 'The suspect is making a statement,' with a big smile on his face. Hanging usually resulted."

Yes, it is based on experience: right here in kali. If you use a gun to defend yourself and kill someone... in most counties, you will be arrested. PERIOD. Whatever you say at the scene will not change that. I have previously described a couple of clear cut cases of self defense where the victims were locked up (in Oakland and SF). Whatever you say will AT BEST not harm you, but in reality will be used against you somehow. Especially in a civil lawsuit.

Understand that everything you say can be twisted around: "he came in through the window and threatened me." Lawyer for the suing party: "So, what you're saying is you could have gone out the front door but instead you chose to shoot the poor man?"

The statement proffered by FedDC:

It is much much better to be identified as the victim up front by giving a brief and smiple explanation of why you shot someone.

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Is not only wrong, it is DANGEROUSLY wrong. It depends very much on the DA and the police, and he is assuming they will be on your side. That is simply not true in many cases, and to assume it is very dangerous.

The best plan is to confer with an attorney and get his advice on what to say and what not to say. A good attorney will know in two seconds if they are looking for an excuse to hang a charge on you.

The other point being overlooked is that it is not a yes/no scenario. In fact, they may rule the shooting as self defense and try to bring some other charge. Bottom line, silence is still golden. You can NEVER take back statements once they are recorded.

Why do you think all of the LE's above are advising citizens to keep their mouths shut?

or "I was sitting in my living room surfing the 'Net when I heard a crash. I went to investigate and encountered this trespasser AND I FELT LIKE MY LIFE WAS IN DANGER", etc.)

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PERFECT example..... of what would probably get you a manslaughter conviction in kali and would ABSOLUTELY get you found liable for wrongful death in a civil suit.... where the family would then own everything you make for the rest of your life.

Know why?

Here, the standard for use of deadly force is only if your life is threatened and YOU HAVE NO POSSIBLE ESCAPE. The statement you just blurted out (which you can never take back) proves you heard a sound and went toward it, thus causing the confrontation... you could have climbed out a window. You could have called 911. You could have just stayed quietly where you were.... but, you CHOSE to arm yourself with a gun and go toward the sound and a death resulted from YOUR action.

You would be dead screwed here, but thanks for so eloquently proving what I had been trying to communicate in my posts.

Before this gets hostile, let me say this:


Boys, don't get hostile.



Now I'll ask a question:

I understand what FedDC is saying, and being a LEO I take it that he has some experience in these matters, so I can't dismiss his advice out of hand. It makes sense. So does the SHUT UP advice.


BUT! Fed, you're the first LEO I've ever heard give this advice. It's directly opposite what I've been told by every qualified person I've ever heard.

Can you offer some additonal insight as to why you are taking what seems to be a minority position on this?

If you go to GJ and the prosecutor want to charge you, you will be indicted and will then go on trial for murder.

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Maybe, but the guy in the previous post who just had to explain why he thought his life was in danger would already have charges filed. The DA wouldn't even need a GJ.

You could always say that you are having chest pains and need to go to the hospitol, thereby leaving the scene under good terms...

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Advice from a LEO...(assuming you're not REALLY having chest pains): "here's a lie you can use that no one can really disprove, and will garner sympathy, if needed later on."

I can't believe I'm reading this! Perhaps other LEO's can add to the (ends justify the means) list? Meanwhile, I'll be attempting to convince myself that this was a hasty remark, not representative of LEO's in general...

Speaking as the guy in the suit sitting next to you in court, I would much rather you err on the side of shut-up-edness.

No offense intended to our friend Fed but you already know you are taking the ride to the county jug. Why? Because Tio Tejon has done told you you would be.

If the po-po arrests me as I know he would, I lose a night or two in the county jug. Get some reading done, exercise, win some toothpaste in euchre, maybe teach some qin na/counter qin na to my fellows. Very soon, the tilecrawler I employ will jump up and down in front of a judge and have me released.

If I get convicted, I may lose several decades of my life to the fine folks at the Department of Corrections. Why prepare the prosecution by talking to the coppers??? Who knows what will become of your "statement" (ramblings/confession/ etc.) by the time it gets to trial.

Remember, even if my friend FedDC lets me go home, and I see this time and time again, I CAN STILL BE PROSECUTED LATER!!! The cops take my statement, find out that certain things don't match up with the 3 drunk witnesses and the 91 year old woman across the street who was asleep but saw the whole thing, forward to Mr. Prosecutor. Mr. Prosecutor can STILL file the case! If anyone wants another rendition of Tejon Theatre on this let me know.

The cop on the beat or the homicide detective is not the HDIC. It is the wolf that you cannot see that I worry about and that wolf (you can use puma, bear or magic unicorn as this is THR) is the District/Commonwealth/Prosecuting/State's Attorney. He is the CLEO and he decides whether you are prosecuted!

Oh, this is part of Problem #2. Those of you who choose not to live in the real world and choose not to believe in Problem #2 or who live in a magical land where anyone can shoot a fellow human being for any reason are free to talk to the cops all you want. Be sure and brag about what a vicious mad dog killer you are and how d34dl33 you are on the Str337z.

Fed, you're the first LEO I've ever heard give this advice. It's directly opposite what I've been told by every qualified person I've ever heard.

Can you offer some additonal insight as to why you are taking what seems to be a minority position on this?

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Let me be the second, I think FedDC explained his reasoning well, but here is mine:

Blabbing on for four hours, and doing a walk through with the cops is a bad idea, saying nothing other than, "want an attorney" is an equally bad idea. Both extremes that will get you in trouble. Saying enough to establish that you felt you were a victim in danger of being killed or being caused serious injury is going to go a long way to avoid going to court of the issue.

But what do I know, I am just one of the guys that decides whether or not to arrest you after the shooting

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Sounds to me you prefer more cooperation rather than less in the course of performing your duty. I would too.

No offense FedDC, but I'm going to stick with the other's on this one.

DMF,

Nicely articulated.

My basic plan would be to say

• That man tried to kill me. I thought I was going to die!
  
• That is his weapon, right there. Wow, look at that bullet hole in the wall behind me... wow. I thought I was going to die. He tried to kill me.
  
• Those people right there saw some of it. That man tried to kill me. I thought I was going to die.
  
• No, I don't know how many shots I fired. I thought he was going to kill me.
  
• How close was he? I don't know. Close enough to kill me. I thought I was going to die. He tried to kill me...
  
• No, I can't answer any other questions right now. I will answer any other questions after I have contacted my lawyer. Am I free to go now?
  
• No, I can't answer that. I will not answer further questions without my lawyer. Am I free to go now?
  
• No, I can't answer that. I will not answer further questions without my lawyer. Am I free to go now?
  
• No, I can't answer that. I will not answer further questions without my lawyer. Am I free to go now? (repeat as necessary)

This seems to me to provide the ideal middle ground. Notice that what I plan to do is to point out witnesses and evidence so that neither walks off, to be heard articulating over and over and over again that I was in fear for my life, and to answer no specific questions whatsoever.

After an adrenalin dump, your body demands to talk. The advice to just shut up is fairly sound advice, but most people aren't capable of doing it anyway. Since your tongue is going to be wagging, it is good to decide in advance just what you will allow it to say -- and say only that.

Not a lawyer, no Holiday Inn Express, but plenty of opinions.

pax

You have the right to remain helpless. Should you choose to waive this right, anything you do may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an assailant. If you cannot find one for yourself, the court will release one for you. -- Steve Munden, quoted by Jeff Cooper in his commentaries

Blabbing on for four hours, and doing a walk through with the cops is a bad idea, saying nothing other than, "want an attorney" is an equally bad idea. Both extremes that will get you in trouble. Saying enough to establish that you felt you were a victim in danger of being killed or being caused serious injury is going to go a long way to avoid going to court of the issue.

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DINGDINGDING.

Fed et al are not talking about making a full statement. They are talking about being slightly more helpful than just "whats all this then?" - "I want my lawyer." Give a very brief synopsis, then clam up. "This is my house...I live here...I have no idea who this guy is...he musta broke out that window, that wasn't like that...Oh God, I was afraid he was gonna kill me and I have my baby girl upstairs...Sir, I really think I need to talk to my lawyer now, I'm sorry, but I really do." This goes down a lot better than: "I want my lawyer."

Obviously, this is a tricky situation you have landed yourself in. If you have to err, err on the side of keeping your yap shut. Know the law. Know what you can and cannot do. This way, you will not say something stupid that will get you hemmed up needlessly. And do not ever lie. One verifiable lie goes a long way to impeaching your testimony when it comes to trial. When in doubt, shut your mouth.

Mike

I'd tend to err on the side of silence.

- It's a safe assumption that if you shoot someone in self-defense, you'll be arrested. You're already in the "perp" category - it is very unlikely that anything you say will convince the cops on the scene to let you walk away. You may as well save your breath.

- After a violent conflict, your blood chemistry is going to be all screwed up. I wouldn't trust myself to give a factual, calm, coherent statement for at least a couple of hours.

- And, there's alwasy the possibility that you'll blow it and talk yourself into a felony conviction. You pay your lawyer alot of money to prevent that happening - don't make things harder for him.

- Chris

I have thunk about this.

If a perp tries to carjack me and I whack him and it appears that there are no other witnesses, I have considered just driving away. I carry a .44 bulldog revolver so there would be no casing. Just drive away. Like the AG of Ohio says.

anyway.

If I'm at home and have to whack a perp. I guess I'm in trouble. The perp would have to kill my dogs first, so, what, do I have to bail out the back door? I won't.

Maybe they will just never find his body.

Who knows.

When I went to Gunsite the LEO that taught the class,said to say this to the police---I know you have your job to do,I will be glad to speak with you after I talk with my attorney.And stick to it.You should mentally be prepared to spend some time in jail after a shooting.You are going to be very upset,the police are going to try to use your state on mind to get you to talk.You are not going to talk your way out of a night in a cell.The police do not lose anything by arresting you,in fact your fear of arrest/jail helps them in the "investigative interview".They may try being nice,they may get in your face attempting to get you to talk.They are skilled in coercing statements,don't fall for it.If a cop shoots someone they have procedures in place to protect themselves.Their union usually provides someone to help them thru the situation and they don't make a statement for 24 hrs.There is a reason for this.Give yourself the same protection.

If a perp tries to carjack me and I whack him and it appears that there are no other witnesses, I have considered just driving away. I carry a .44 bulldog revolver so there would be no casing. Just drive away. Like the AG of Ohio says.

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Good plan...right up until the point at which the witness you didn't know was there gets your tag number. Then you're done.

Do the right thing. It isn't always the easy thing.

Mike

Also:

so, what, do I have to bail out the back door? I won't.

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You really ought to know the answer to this question before you arm yourself in self defense. If you don't know it yet, you owe it to yourself and your family to find out. But hey, its your jury trial.

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six? Sure. Even better to be no-billed by sixteen.

Mike

Coronach, just remember

It's much easier to get forgivness that permission.

There is at least a 50/50 chance that the unseen witness will not note the license tag. Even if they catch you, You are in no deeper doodoo than if you stayed there.

What's the difference?

Figure the risk / reward ratio.

I am not advocating leaving the scene of the instant imposition of justice. This was, as indicated, just a thought.

There is at least a 50/50 chance that the unseen witness will not note the license tag. Even if they catch you, You are in no deeper doodoo than if you stayed there.

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Flat out wrong.

Coronach, Sorry, I didn't see the next.;

So try to put yourself in my position.

I had a 100 lb. dog die last summer. I was real sad but I dug the hole and buried him.

So a home invader, in the middle of the night, kills my two remaining dogs to get to my home. Here I am with my Mossberg 500, backed up in my bedroom and the dumb sob breaks in.

I send him to the promised land. Now, what can I look forward to. Getting locked up for the imposition of justice?

Hey, I live 8 miles from a town of 1300. So, I dig a hole and bury it, the home invader? Hey, I just dig the hole and bury it.

Please, do not let this be in any way an inducement to take the law into your own hands.

This was just a thought.

At all times you should call the law enforcement and subject yourselves to the jeaprody of being charged.

The policeman's job is to arrest someone when he arrives at the scene of an incident. It is safe to assume that you are going to be arrested. If you think you can make a statement that can not be misunderstood, you are mistaken. Consider the 27 words of the second ammendment, and all the legal scrutiny they have undergone in the past. Many still doubt their meaning.

Expect to be arrested, expect to be charged, You are, after all, guilty of shooting a human being. Self defense is for you to prove, if/when the prosecutor is convinced he can prove you actually did the shooting.

My personal preference for this situation is to be gone when the police arrive, if possible, and no one there knows me. THEN, if they come to my door. They will have to PROVE I was there, and that I had a gun, and that I fired it, I will not help them by talking. Then I will try to prove I defended myself.

I do NOT trust the system, I will avoid it if I can.

If a perp tries to carjack me and I whack him and it appears that there are no other witnesses, I have considered just driving away. I carry a .44 bulldog revolver so there would be no casing. Just drive away. Like the AG of Ohio says.

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This is the type of behavior that will land you in jail, and possibly get you a needle in some states. No casing? You think that is the only thing that ties you to that crime scene? Locard's principle will get you. Never heard of Locard's principle? Might want to look it up and think about the ways in which it applies to this foolish plan.

Maybe they will just never find his body.

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There is no statute of limitations on murder in any state that I know of, so odds are that body will be discovered. Your self-defense claim is gone when they realize you tried to cover it up. Same with leaving the scene in the previous scenario, and not reporting the shooting.

Hell in the first scenario if the guy you shot doesn't die and provides a description to the police, and IDs you later, you are screwed. But even if you assume that in both cases the person is dead, eventually the physical evidence tying you to the body comes out. Then the fact that you tried to cover it up will be presented to a jury. Here is where your plan completely screws you over, because no jury is going to believe that an innocent man will try to cover up the shootings.

Expect to be arrested, expect to be charged, You are, after all, guilty of shooting a human being. Self defense is for you to prove, if/when the prosecutor is convinced he can prove you actually did the shooting.

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It's not about whether or not you get arrested that night, it's about whether or not you get indicted and go to trial. Completely stonewalling will not only get you arrested, but makes you look guilty rather than an innocent victim. Here comes the expensive jury trial that you may lose.

My personal preference for this situation is to be gone when the police arrive, if possible, and no one there knows me. THEN, if they come to my door. They will have to PROVE I was there, and that I had a gun, and that I fired it, I will not help them by talking. Then I will try to prove I defended myself.

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Reference my previous post. Locard's principle will get you. The physical evidence, and possible witnesses (they don't need to know you to be useful witnesses) will tie you to the scene. The fact that you left and tried to avoid detection will make you look guilty in front of a jury.

That's the reality.

Coronach said:
Even better to be no-billed by sixteen.

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DINGDINGDING. We have a winner.

Mike, thanks for the clarification. Makes sense to me. Human nature being what it is, total stonewalling will irritate the ossifers, and irritated ossifers are not what you want in that situation. SYMPATHETIC officers are what you want. Sounds like the best chance of NOBODY getting arrested or charged.

I do NOT trust the system, I will avoid it if I can.

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It's not about trusting the system, it's about understanding the system.

That includes understanding human nature, i.e., police officer nature.




And anybody who thinks burying a body or leaving the scene of a killing because there are no witnesses is a good idea....







There are no words.

So, pax, are you basically saying that you thought that man tried to kill you, and you thought you were going to die?





On a practical note, if you can pull it off without saying too much, the presence of a babbling woman is probably NOT going to encourage the police to try to get her to talk MORE.







Well, it's TRUE!