Advice from a LEO in my CCW class

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hillbilly

Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
3,165
Location
Iowa
When I teach CCW classes in Arkansas I must, by law, hire someone qualified to teach "Self Defense and the Law" and "Use of Deadly Force."

In Arkansas, being a lawyer or a LEO qualifies you do teach this portion of the class.

Here is the basic advice a LEO recently gave to a CCW class I hosted.

This guy is a SWAT officer with 10 years experience, an armorer who builds precision rifles for fun, a former sniper and current sniper-trainer, with several awards and commendations...basically a been there, done that kind of guy.

His advice to anyone who has to use a gun for self-defense is very basic.

When the cops show up, tell them your name and not much else.

When they start trying to get you to tell them, step-by-step, what happened, don't tell them.

Don't tell them anything until you get your lawyer on the scene with them.

Even if they arrest you, which they might do, don't tell them anything until you have a lawyer with you.

Tell the cops that you want to tell them what happened, but that you will not be giving any statements until you are in the company of your lawyer.

And then, even if your lawyer shows up, don't tell them anything right then.

His advice was to wait at least one day and let the adrenaline get out of your body, and make an appointment to come down to the station, with your lawyer, to make an official statement.

But this LEO's advice for civilians who have to use guns in self-defense is to not tell the police anything before they have consulted with their lawyer, no matter the circumstances.

This LEO told a class full of CCW permit seekers that cops are trained to get people to talk, and are trained in all sorts of pscyhological techniques to get people to do so.

hillbilly
 
Thats the advice I was given in my CWP class.

"I've just been through an extremely difficult situation. I will cooperate in 24 hours after I've had time to calm down and speak with a lawyer."

The instructor told us that we say NOTHING aside from the above line, since lawyers are paid by the hour, and the first thing a lawyer will have to do is spend time undoing everything else you said in the meantime.
 
Here is the advice I was given in my training:

Here is all you say

Officer I was afraid for my life, I was sure he was going to Kill me.

I am too upset to say anything else, I will make a statment tomorrow when I have my lawyer with me.

Name, address, and phone number.

If they dont arrest you, leave.

If they insist you accompany them ask to call your lawyer and say nothing else.
 
Excellent advice. A few more things:

1. When the cops show up, simply tell them you were afraid for your life, and you have absolutely nothing more to say. Do not talk to the cops & detectives. They’re likely to get visibly upset at your refusal to “cooperate,†but don’t let it bother you. Contact your lawyer immediately. Most importantly - and this can't be stressed enough - shut up.

2. You never shoot to kill; you shoot to stop. Any death is incidental. If you ever say to the judge or jury that your intent was to "kill" and not merely "stop," the jury will look at you quite suspiciously.

3. Never fire warning shots. Why? Because it will send a mixed signal to the jury. Your lawyer will be working hard trying to convince the jury that your life was in danger, thereby justifying the shooting. But the opposition will use the fact that you fired warning shots to prove your life was not in that much danger. (The opposing lawyer will argue that a person "does not fire warning shots when they believe their life is truly in danger.")
 
Last edited:
I think that this is good advice. In the above situation, the cops are NOT your friends!
 
Heck we were told the same exact thing in the police academy. If you ever get into a shooting make no statements at the scene and wait at least a day before you give your official statement. After an incident such as that your adrenaline has been pumping massively and you will not remember as many details at that moment as you will the next day. Your mind will start to relax and you will begin to remember things that you would not have the moment after the shooting took place. Sounds kinda weird but very true.
 
The basic advice that they give cops when they're involved in a shooting (on or off duty), is the same thing. Basic facts only. Politely request a lawyer. Shut your pie hole.

BTW, there is such a thing as an investigative detention. You will be under it in a shooting, good bad or ugly. There is no need to force the situation into an arrest/don't arrest scenario by trying to assert your 'right' to leave, because if you do, the decision will be to arrest. And rightly so- here you have Dead Guy A, and Live Guy B who made Dead Guy A dead is trying to leave the area. Does probable cause exist to believe that a crime may have been committed? You sure betcha. So, you'll be arrested, and certainly spend the whole night in jail, as opposed to giving up a few hours of your time and possibly going home at the end of it all. That said, when asked questions, your response should still be "I would like to talk with my lawyer first, sir."

Mike
 
What should you instruct your spouse, children, friends, etc. to say if they are with you and weren't involved in the shooting but saw the whole thing?

It might look suspicious if you were with a couple people and they all refused to talk.

:confused:
 
Diggler....

People's fundamental fear of "looking suspicious" is one of the fundamental tools police use to get people to talk.

That's why you don't say anything until you have consulted with a lawyer.

"Looking suspicious" doesn't matter a hoot once the police have something down on permanent record that they can use against you.

For example.......I said stupid things to the police, and as a result, I'm now in prison for 15 years...But hey, at least I didn't "look suspicious" to the officers on the scene.


As for asserting your right to leave, I think I would go ahead and do that.

There's not much difference, in my mind, about being detained for an "investigative interview" and being arrested.

In fact, once they DO arrest you, they at least have to tell you that you have the right to remain silent.

That's the whole sneaky part of the "investigative interview." They've got you there, but since they haven't actually arrested you, they DON'T HAVE TO tell you that you don't have to talk.

The "investigative interview" is always where people hang themselves. They talk themselves right into prison in the "investigative interview."

Either way, arrested or not, you are still in the situation of remaining silent until the lawyer gets there.

hillbilly
 
It might look suspicious if you were with a couple people and they all refused to talk.
Click to expand...
How it looks at the time is less important than what can be entered as evidence later.

If your spouse/children etc., saw the thing, it would be quite reasonable for them to be too upset to say a single word until after they've settled down . . . and spoken to an attorney themselves. If they're merely witnesses, it might even make sense for them to leave before the police show up. Certainly, if the cops try talking to them and don't let them leave, it would be reasonable and prudent for them to clam up until they speak with an attorney.

To paraphrase the words of the guy who taught my CHL class - and whose wife is a prosecutor - "Don't let your alligator mouth get your hummingbird @$$ in jail."
 
As others have pointed out, "I was afraid for my life and I acted in self-defense" is about as far as most experts recommend you go with it before getting a lawyer. One thing people don't always realize is that even if it's a perfect shoot, you're not going to be in any frame of mind to make a coherent statement anyway, and you don't want inaccurate or contradictory statements coming back to haunt you.
 
Even if you are under arrest they "DO NOT" have to read you your rights, "ie, the right to remain silent".........unless they are going to be asking you questions.

If they don't mirandize you, and you blurt something out.......oh well.
 
I had a good talk with my wife a few weeks ago about just this subject. I told her that if God forbid I ever have to draw my gun when the police arrive it important that she not say a word to them. No matter what they tell her she has got to tell them we are waiting for our lawyer. My plan is to just say "I was afraid for my life", and possible point out any evidence that might be important.

Like everyone else has said KEPP YOUR TRAP SHUT!
 
When the cops show up, tell them your name and not much else.

When they start trying to get you to tell them, step-by-step, what happened, don't tell them.

Don't tell them anything until you get your lawyer on the scene with them.

Even if they arrest you, which they might do, don't tell them anything until you have a lawyer with you.

Tell the cops that you want to tell them what happened, but that you will not be giving any statements until you are in the company of your lawyer.

And then, even if your lawyer shows up, don't tell them anything right then.
.
Click to expand...
AMEN, brother! Makes me happy to hear a cop telling citizens this. I advise people to get a tube of Krazy Glue and use it on their lips..... say nothing at all. Another point: if they read you your rights, when they ask:

"Do you understand these rights I have given you?"

Answer a firm and loud "NO!"

They will ask what you don't understand and your answer is:

"I am not a lawyer and I don't understand these things."

Say it loud and clear and in the company of witnesses. Even if you confess to the Lindbergh kidnapping after that, the statements will be inadmissable in court.

And remember at some point a kind and friendly policeman will come in to help you "tell your side of it" so that "we can get this cleared up and get you home". That kind friend has put more people in jail than Elliot Ness and J. Edgar Hoover ever did. NOBODY AT THE POLICE STATION IS YOUR FRIEND.:uhoh:
 
How many times do we have this exact discussion...

The advice to shut up and say nothing or just say that you want your atty may sound good on the internet, but in real life it is a sure fire way to end up facing a jury. The key to a post shooting investigation is identifying who the suspect is and who the victim is...you want to be the VICTIM. You do not look like a victim when you clam up and say "I want my Atty"...any leo will tell you that that is what guilty people say. If you get a chance, Gabe Suarez has an excellent presentation in his classes on post shoot procedures.

In short, you need to look like a victim and that means giving the police some information. You don't have to go through it blow by blow, but it needs to be a bit more than "I feared for my life". Basicly, point out all of the evidence, describe what you thought was happening and clearly point out how your life was in danger. Then you can get quiet and still look like the victim. You could always say that you are having chest pains and need to go to the hospitol, thereby leaving the scene under good terms...

If you get arrested at the scene, you will end up on a charge sheet for the Pros Atty and you may be facing a grand jury which could all end up in the paper with you as the murderer, not the victim. You do not want to be in either of those places. Getting arrested for Murder is not going to have a happy ending, even if you are not convicted... It will always haunt you.

At the end of the day, you must look like the victim, not the agressor and that means having the appearance of being open and honest. Nobody is saying that you should give out and autobiography, but just shutting up and demanding an atty is a good way to look very guilty and end up with a murder charge staring down at you.
 
I think FED has a good point, but trying to find a way to look like the victim without running your mouth is still the best plan. Ayoob recomends pointing out evidence and at the most giving a brief outline of what happened. Then clamming up and starting the I was afraid thing. The tough part is during your brief outline you might accidently say something like "he was trying to get my tv". That would be about the worst thing you could say. Usually the only reason you can shoot someone is to defend your life or the life of another. By stating that you were worried about your TV it makes it sound like you shooting him to keep your TV from getting stolen. In many states that would be a manslaughter charge at the least. That is why there are so many people that advise against saying anything at all. It is just too risky to start talking.


Oh and BountryHunter I like your style. "Honest office I don't know what any of those fancy words meant. I sure wish I had my lawyer so he could explain them to me."
 
I've had both attorneys and cops tell me to keep my mouth shut until afterward. I also had one LEO tell me that, if at all possible, "wetting oneself" is a good idea.

Or in other words, I was so scared I pi$$ed my pants...

Also, I think we get advised so much to keep quiet because people tend to run their mouths, but not their brains, when they're on an adrenaline high.
 
It is true that people who shut up sometimes find themselves facing charges. That doesn't mean shutting up is the cause of the charges. You do need to say enough to show you're the victim - "I was afraid for my life. Those people over there saw it. I will sign a criminal complaint against him." But no more than that.

The reason you need to say something is that the form has a place on it for victim and a place on it for perpetrator, and you want to be in the victim slot. Policemen usually do a good job investigating until they form a theory of the case. At that point their mind is usually made up and all the facts in the world contrary to their theory will accomplish nothing. So it's important to get to them first and get your theory in their mind. But you can do that with the one or two simple sentences mentioned above.

As far as it being a sign you're a criminal to ask for a lawyer, well, that's what the LEOs will say. "If you didn't do anything wrong, there's no reason not to talk to us." They're wrong.

Actually most criminals try to talk their way out of the arrest. Many criminals have gotten by in life by being persuasive, and they think they can work the magic on anyone.
 
The advice to shut up and say nothing or just say that you want your atty may sound good on the internet, but in real life it is a sure fire way to end up facing a jury. The key to a post shooting investigation is identifying who the suspect is and who the victim is...you want to be the VICTIM. You do not look like a victim when you clam up and say "I want my Atty"...any leo will tell you that that is what guilty people say. If you get a chance, Gabe Suarez has an excellent presentation in his classes on post shoot procedures.
Click to expand...
Heed every word of this... and do the opposite. Every word you say at the scene will be recorded and used against you both in criminal proceedings and civil proceedings.

Forensics will tell who the players were and where they were at the scene.

Shutting up may make the cop suspect that you are guilty of something, but it is the grand jury who will decide to bring the charges to trial: they will be reading the statement you and your attorney supply as well as all the things recorded by the police when you ran your mouth at the scene.

You do the math.
 
BountyHunter-

Maybe you have never been to Grand Jury, but I have and it is beyond easy to get someone indicted at a GJ. They have no right to their own atty and can not defend themselves, so saying that you may go to GJ, but it will be ok is just plain wrong. If you go to GJ and the prosecutor want to charge you, you will be indicted and will then go on trial for murder. It is much much better to be identified as the victim up front by giving a brief and smiple explanation of why you shot someone. No, you should not do a walk through or answer questions for hours, but at the other end where you say nothing...well, that is just as bad because both extreems will land you in jail. As another poster said, there are blocks on the report for Victims, Witnesses, and Suspects. You will go into one of those blocks and the Procesutor will read that report that lists you as a Victim or a Suspect. Which do you want to be? The prosecutor is not going to call you and get your side, he will ask the cops and when they tell him that all you did was refuse to speak and ask for an atty, he will rightly assume that you look guilty. His perception of your guilt may very well lead to your indictment, all of which could have been prevented by giving a brief description of what happened and pointing out the evidence to the officers... But what do I know, I am just one of the guys that decides whether or not to arrest you after the shooting;)
 
BountyHunter,

Do you base your opinion on any professional experience in this area? Just curious, because I think FedDC's argument has some merit. I don't see how a very general description of the facts ("I was walking to my car and this guy approached me with a knife AND I FELT LIKE MY LIFE WAS IN DANGER", or "I was sitting in my living room surfing the 'Net when I heard a crash. I went to investigate and encountered this trespasser AND I FELT LIKE MY LIFE WAS IN DANGER", etc.) can hurt. When the cops start asking any more questions, you simply say "I am very overwhelmed by this event and need some time before I answer any more questions."

OTOH, you can always try "Its my RIGHT to shoot anybody I want, especially JBT's, SO WATCH OUT!!"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
How to Handle a 911 Call After a Self Defense Shooting
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Kleanbore
K
M
  • Locked
LEO harassed my wife about CCW this morning
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
138
Views
9K
Sam1911
S
D
  • Locked
Finding a Lawyer
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
skidmark
S
Jack19
  • Locked
Gun Choices and Juries - Jail or no Jail
Replies
3
Views
718
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
S
  • Locked
What to say to the 911 operator
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
Zach S
Z
Back
Top