LEO harassed my wife about CCW this morning

Status
Not open for further replies.
It doesn't hurt. I was pulled over with my weapon in Ohio. I had taken my M&P off and it was in my glove compartment, where my papers were. I explained to the officer the situation and he asked for my permit. I handed him my ID and explained I carried under LEOSA. He said he didn't think my profession was covered by LEOSA. I carry a laminated, miniaturized copy of a memo from AG Ashcroft, the Director of my agency, and a copy of the US Code where I draw my arrest authority. I showed him and he was pretty pleasant and sent me on my way with a friendly warning to slow down. Things may have been different if I hadn't had the paperwork. Heck I've met a few cops who haven't even heard of LEOSA (which became a law 8 years ago) and it covers THEM.

I'm not trying to divert the conversation to LEOSA I'm just pointing out that sometimes officer DON"T know the law and it really helps if you do. Especially if you can cite the exact code that pertains to it.
 
If it is actually true that the law was changed in the last few years, the officers/deputies may simply not be aware of that.

Law enforcement officers are usually pretty up to speed on drunk driving law, drug possession laws, and other things they run into a lot. Most really don't have "official" dealings with law-abiding firearms owners and their legally-possessed weapons very often, so they quite generally don't have a lot of exposure to the laws about CCW and RKBA.
Click to expand...

There has been no change in this provision since the law was written in the early 90s.
This woman was subjected to an illegal search. The officer had no probable cause that a crime had been committed. Having an HCP is not a crime. Not telling him is not a crime either.
It needs to be pushed because someone that out of control will likely cause permanent damage some day.
 
I lived in TN and had a CHP while a resident and my instructor for the class who was a local chief of police said do not inform, even when carrying, you do not have too unless asked, but you better have your permit with you if carrying and asked, then provide the permit and follow instructions.
 
These are all great suggestions of actions for your wife to take. I really do wonder what would have happened if he HAD found a gun during his search. Scary.
 
Even if not required by law to tell the officer it is a very good idea to let him or her know. It is required in many states and many police, as stated earlier in another post, don't know the various laws as well as they should. When you let them know it tends to put them at ease and they won't likely be viewing you as a potential threat. An officer conducted my very first CHL class and he stressed this point to us. It is just a good thing to do.
 
Id get a lawyer. He SHOULD of had a women officer pat her down. Since she was not carrying, i dont think she had to show her ID.
 
I live in and am a police officer in TN. Handgun permit holders do not have to declare if they have a gun if they are not asked by the officer. I do recommend you do though because some of my fellow officers are pricks.
 
I live in and am a police officer in TN. Handgun permit holders do not have to declare if they have a gun if they are not asked by the officer. I do recommend you do though because some of my fellow officers are pricks.
Click to expand...

This is the way it is in Kansas. CCW class did recommend notifying though.
 
I was taught to always show it to officers when stopped. What's the point of not showing it, unless you're one of those who think LEO's are all corrupt buttholes?
 
Much easier here in TX. Law requires we notify, and like others here, I've found that LEOs (well, all but one) were much more courteous after I identified myself, carrying (mostly) or not.

I even had the opportunity to meet an LEO in Colorado after going too fast in a poorly posted small town. Identified myself, and after a brief conversation, got a "have a nice day", and went on my way. How often do you think that happens to a Texan in a small town in CO driving a rental car 10+ miles over the limit?
 
It's been stated that it is not required.

Now it depends on what you want to accomplish.

I would talk to the Chief. Not satisfied there, next stop would be the Attorney General's Office. They should be able to explain the statute to the locals.
 
I do recommend you do though because some of my fellow officers are pricks.
Click to expand...
And that DISCOURAGES them from being "pricks" HOW???

No bully ever stopped being a bully because he got what he wanted by BEING a bully.

Last night I was stopped for a POSSIBLE minor traffic infraction. I wasn't carrying, but somehow the cop thought I should "notify". I didn't and won't EVER notify when not carrying.

It's LAW enforcement not WHIM enforcement.

I'm COMPLETELY uninterested in catering to the whims of random cops. Where would it end?

If you render BS "courtesies" not mandated by law, they're quickly perceived as DUTIES, and the demands just escalate over time.

If you cave in to an extra-legal demand that you notify when not required by law, why not cave in to a demand that you not carry on Tuesdays or AT ALL?

What a cop WANTS doesn't matter.

What the law REQUIRES matters.
 
What's the point of not showing it, unless you're one of those who think LEO's are all corrupt buttholes?
Click to expand...
You act like some of them AREN'T "corrupt buttholes". Ever heard the name Daniel Harless?

Cops have abused the notification requirement where it exists. They can't be trusted with it and it needs to be eliminated.
 
Definitely does not seem right to me (I am a junior in college for criminal justice). I do not know any specific laws in TN but it sounds to me that your wife's 4th Amendment (Unreasonable search/seizure) rights were violated by the officers search of her car and purse, unless your wife gave the officer consent to do so. From the facts that you give in your original post, there was no reason for him to search her car or purse (no probable cause). Since your wife is not a convicted felon with a history of firearm possession (which she's not since she has a CCW license) he should not have searched her car like he did. You should bring up the fact of the 4th Amendment to the Sheriff/Chief when you speak with them and let him know that you feel that your wife's 4th Amendment right was violated. Just my 2 cents.
 
Fellas,

The ones that are screaming illegal search and lawsuit need to do some internet research. The officer did nothing illegal. For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed (Terry vs. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968).

Likewise the Supreme Court has upheld that a vehicle may be searched without a warrant due to the mobility of the vehicle and length of time required to get a search warrant. Moreover, the court ruled the "expectation" of privacy is different in a vehicle.

There are limits to vehicle searches but that goes well beyond the scope of this discussion.

Another reality check . The criminal and civil courts require lawyers. And the better lawyer you hire the better your chances of winning. The government has deep pockets to fight a lawsuit hiring expert witnesses and using every legal tactic to get the case dismissed.
For a case like this think $10,000 just for the lawyer to research your case and tell you if you have a chance of winning a case that is going to drag out for years. Is it really worth your money and the toil the case is going to put on your and your family?
 
I loved working in TN, but hated driving through it. They had roadblocks set up to "check for weapons" and hassled the crap out of anybody from out of state that they stopped. Since it was a job that lasted two years there, I got pushed around on numerous occasions by idiots who thought their badges gave them the opportunity to push their weight around.

At the time, I was also teaching martial arts, so I always had martial arts weapons in my car, and they would unceremoniously pull all my stuff out and make me give them the same explanation over and over. I finally told one of them that if they had a problem with me travelling in their state, I'd be glad to stay home and they could do their own damn engineering.

If you refused to allow them to search your car, they simply made you pull over while they spent two or more hours getting a warrant to come search it, so there really wasn't any point to "making the point" if you had nothing to hide from them. They thought they were clever by putting out "Drug check roadblock - 2 miles" signs and then setting up the roadblocks on the off ramps for the next two miles, but it just plays back into the idiotic idea they have that everybody from a different state is hauling guns and drugs into TN. I was there to do engineering work, and really didn't appreciate the hassle, or the attempts to intimidate me.

I used to vacation in Tennessee, but haven't done so since that job folded. Wonder why?

WT
 
Fellas,

The ones that are screaming illegal search and lawsuit need to do some internet research. The officer did nothing illegal. For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed (Terry vs. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968).

Likewise the Supreme Court has upheld that a vehicle may be searched without a warrant due to the mobility of the vehicle and length of time required to get a search warrant. Moreover, the court ruled the "expectation" of privacy is different in a vehicle.

There are limits to vehicle searches but that goes well beyond the scope of this discussion.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is true that the officer is allowed to do a simple pat down for officer safety (this means no manipulation of anything on the person i.e. manipulating a pack of gum because it felt like a pocket knife). Once the OP's wife was out of the vehicle there was no reason for the officer to search the car or her purse. Being outside of the car means that she could not access anything inside the car/purse without the officer having time to react. Once she passed the initial pat down and was outside of the vehicle, the officer was safe. There was no reason to go any further in my opinion.

Also, the case that you talk about the Supreme Court upholding that a vehicle may be searched without a warrant pertains to if the officer has probable cause to believe that there is contraband inside the vehicle. His wife having a valid CCW license is does not constitute a firearm being contraband. She is legally allowed to own and carry said firearm. For example, if a convicted felon had a history of illegal firearm possession, then the officer is allowed to search the vehicle because they would be in possession of contraband (convicted felons cannot be in possession of firearms).
 
Last edited:
Law requires we notify
Click to expand...

kind of.

If not carrying there is no penalty for not notifying.

The officer did nothing illegal.
Click to expand...

Sorry. Officer should be in jail UNLESS she gave permission.

He had no reasonably articulated suspicion of a crime.

Personally I would have his badge and his house at the minimum.
 
You are not required to volunteer your permit when interacting with police in Tennessee. You have to show the permit when asked for it.
 
Ok, spoke to the chief today. He told me that their officers know the law and that they only "recommend" that the driver show both at the time of being pulled over. He said he knows it's not required, only recommended. He also stated that no male officer would ever pat down a female unassisted. He's looking into it. He didn't seem too amused by what happened. He seemed to be interested to hear the other side of the story. That officer is a 20 year veteran of that force, so it'll be swept under the rug, but at least he knows somebody knows the law!
 
Post #68--Deanimator. 100% right on the money.

I was taught to always show it to officers when stopped.
Click to expand...
That is because it used to be the law in TX. That requirement was recently revoked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

O
  • Locked
Speeding Ticket and CCW
2
Replies
37
Views
2K
NavyLCDR
N
Z
  • Locked
Using someone else's CCW
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
Sam1911
S
6
  • Locked
License Plate/CCW Permit Disassociation in VA
Replies
16
Views
2K
splithoof
S
D
  • Locked
(MI) Woman's gun may have saved her life (Police Chief was against CCW)
Replies
19
Views
1K
Barbara
B
guyfromohio
  • Locked
Is the U.S. sharing CCW info with foreign nations?
2 3
Replies
65
Views
3K
tarosean
tarosean
Back
Top