9mm Crimp Issue

Hello and welcome to THR!

It sounds like you have a really good grasp of what you are doing! I hate to tell you it, but you are overthinking this!

Generally speaking, the more neck tension, the better. From an accuracy standpoint, Consistent neck tension is key. Well, consistency all around is key. bullet weight, brass thickness, primers, powder charge, seating depth, neck tension etc etc etc. You will get the most consistent neck tension when you sort your brass by headstamp. There are gauges to measure neck tension but us reloaders generally use two methods to determine that there is sufficient neck tension for a safe load in an autoloader. The first one is the "bench test"- Measure the OAL of a round, then with your thumbs, push the round against the edge of the bench as hard as you can muster. The overall length shouldnt change any. The other method is by hand cycling the rounds through the firearm to measure any setback. A few thousandths of setback per chambering is normal.

As for flare- it sounds like you got it right, you want minimal flare. just enough to make it easy to sit a bullet on top of the case. As for your crimp- you dont really want to "crimp" on auto loader rounds. The firearm headspaces off of the case mouth so you dont want that digging into the bullet. You only want to remove the belling you added to the case to seat the bullet. Crimping the case mouth into the bullet will damage the bullet and actually decrease neck tension. You want just enough crimp such that there is no air space between the case mouth and the bullet. Also, keep in mind that the amount of crimp applied depends on the case length. Shorter cases will get less crimp and longer cases more crimp. Thicker brass will also get more crimp than thinner brass. Pick an average length case to set up your dies with and you are good to go. If you are OCD like me, you can either sort the brass by headstamp for a consistent brass length/crimp or trim your pistol brass to a consistent length. Remington brass is thin, overseas foreign stuff is usually thick. Watch out for junk cases with an internal step like IMT, Ammoload and I believe now blazer/federal?

Lastly, some people are firm believers in case gauges. I believe they have their place for rifle cartridges, but the only case gauge that really matters in your situation is your pistol's chamber. Remove the barrel and use it as your case gauge.

That covered it well.

I use a single cavity Lyman case gage for all of my rounds. There are some rounds that will not case gage but will pass a plunk test in my 9mm pistol barrels.

A year or so ago I won at a prize table a multi cavity case gage for 9mm made by DAA. It seems like the tolerance for that gage is tighter than the Lyman, rounds that will not pass the DAA test will go into the Lyman no problem. But the only thing that matters is does the round chambering in the firearm? To go to the next step you should try to determine exactly where the case is oversized or misshaped, don't assume it's at the crimp. 9mm is not a straight wall cartridge, it has a slight taper. Dillon resize dies generally do not resize as far down to the headstamp as others. I'm not advising you to use a different die but I replaced my Dillon resize die with the EGW undersize die, this gives my cases more neck tension which as another poster mentioned is what holds the bullet in the case, not the crimp.

For now if the ammo is working just use it and once you gain a better understanding of exactly what it is your trying to accomplish, then you can figure things out. It will come to you I'm sure.

As said in Post #2 you are over thinking this. With semi-auto ammo the crimp has nothing to do with holding the bullet. Many reloaders would pay money to have the good neck tension you are getting.

Where did you get the idea neck tension is measured by how hard it is to pull the bullet? If it was a Youtube video never look at that person's videos again lol.

Welcome to the forum...
Sounds like there is no problem at all, now go shoot your ammo.

Reefinmike said:

Hello and welcome to THR!

It sounds like you have a really good grasp of what you are doing! I hate to tell you it, but you are overthinking this!

Generally speaking, the more neck tension, the better. From an accuracy standpoint, Consistent neck tension is key. Well, consistency all around is key. bullet weight, brass thickness, primers, powder charge, seating depth, neck tension etc etc etc. You will get the most consistent neck tension when you sort your brass by headstamp. There are gauges to measure neck tension but us reloaders generally use two methods to determine that there is sufficient neck tension for a safe load in an autoloader. The first one is the "bench test"- Measure the OAL of a round, then with your thumbs, push the round against the edge of the bench as hard as you can muster. The overall length shouldnt change any. The other method is by hand cycling the rounds through the firearm to measure any setback. A few thousandths of setback per chambering is normal.

As for flare- it sounds like you got it right, you want minimal flare. just enough to make it easy to sit a bullet on top of the case. As for your crimp- you dont really want to "crimp" on auto loader rounds. The firearm headspaces off of the case mouth so you dont want that digging into the bullet. You only want to remove the belling you added to the case to seat the bullet. Crimping the case mouth into the bullet will damage the bullet and actually decrease neck tension. You want just enough crimp such that there is no air space between the case mouth and the bullet. Also, keep in mind that the amount of crimp applied depends on the case length. Shorter cases will get less crimp and longer cases more crimp. Thicker brass will also get more crimp than thinner brass. Pick an average length case to set up your dies with and you are good to go. If you are OCD like me, you can either sort the brass by headstamp for a consistent brass length/crimp or trim your pistol brass to a consistent length. Remington brass is thin, overseas foreign stuff is usually thick. Watch out for junk cases with an internal step like IMT, Ammoload and I believe now blazer/federal?

Lastly, some people are firm believers in case gauges. I believe they have their place for rifle cartridges, but the only case gauge that really matters in your situation is your pistol's chamber. Remove the barrel and use it as your case gauge.

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That ^^^^ pretty much covers it and all I will add is if your loading for more than one pistol test fit in all to insure feeding.

You are worried because your bullet tension may be too high? Really?
Just remember, more rounds have been ruined by under-flaring than have been lost by over-flaring.
For my .38 Special wadcutter, I get best accuracy using so much flare that the case barely enters the seating die. Any less, and the long wadcutter can tip. Don't be afraid to test things, as long as you are safe.
And, before any one says it, NO, the Lyman M-Die did not produce more accurate ammo, so I continue to over-flare so I can get sub-1" at 25 yard ammo.
Personally, I wish the terms were taper "removal of case mouth flare" and roll "crimping," so folks would know what they are really doing.
When you seat a bullet, try to push the bullet down with your finger or thumb. If the bullet moves, reject that round. If it doesn't move, go on to "crimp" stage.
Finally, take a factory round and try to pull the bullet and compare. Most folks simply don't know how soft they are actually hitting with the hammer--they are convinced that they are pounding away, while I can look and see that they really aren't. Close your eyes and hit it as hard as you can. Picture your least favorite politician and "whack a mole."

What are you striking with your kenitec puller?

Hit something SOLID. Do it hard. These things are suprisingly tough. No wood or anything even remotely soft.

I just lean over and whack the concrete floor. Twice usually does it for handgun stuff. Even stubborn lightweight rifle rounds usually come out in 5 or 6 smacks.

I have a small jewelry anvil on my wooden bench that I whack crisply with my puller three - six times at most.

I think you guys missed the fact that a seating.crimp die has two adjustments. I would start over fellowing the instructions for the "crimp" die precisely.

Crimp can find handloaders all over and around an interstate highway. right lane, wrong direction, in the median or ditch on either side. Too much, too little, more accurate,less accurate. Ive certiantly been told I am just wasting my time sealing primers and bullets too. When you get a working combination you are willing to accept as good enough, enjoy the hobby of handloading. Be sure to enjoy the shooting of it, thats the best part.

Decoy80 said:

Crimp can find handloaders all over ... Too much, too little, more accurate, less accurate.

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Well, this is "Handloading & Reloading" forum where "Handloading" requires higher degree of reloading precision. Applying crimp and measuring bullet setback shouldn't be a guessing game as we have reloading tools like calipers that can precisely measure to .001".

For straight walled semi-auto pistol rounds that headspace on case mouth, since case wall thickness average .011", I add .022" to the diameter of the bullet to determine taper crimp. So for .355" sized bullet, I use .377" taper crimp.

Wyphy said:

I didn't see anything that suggested neck tension was measured by bullet removal difficulty

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Welcome to THR.

I used to push on the bullet against the bench top to measure neck tension but since that motion does not replicate the forces involved when the bullet nose slams on the feed ramp, now I measure neck tension by feeding/chambering dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine without riding the slide and measuring OAL before and after. Keep in mind that it's not the finished OAL but "chambered" OAL that will determine the accuracy of your rounds.

While I prefer no bullet setback from chambered rounds, I will accept bullet setback of a few thousandths. If you can measure bullet setback of more than several thousandths, you have neck tension issue that needs to be investigated as deeper seated bullet can significantly raise chamber pressure.

If adjusting sizing die to barely kiss the top of the shell holder/plate without seeing daylight while sizing a case and using .022" added to the diameter of the bullet won't resolve neck tension/bullet setback issue, consider using shorter OAL or bullets with longer base and/or larger sized bullets to increase neck tension.

You didn't mention caliber but if you are using 9mm 115 gr RN bullet sized .355", you can try:

- Using shorter OAL like 1.130" instead of 1.150"-1.160" as case wall gets thicker towards the case base and apply greater neck tension as bullet base gets seated deeper

- Using slightly larger sized Berry's (.3555" but advertised as .356") or RMR (.356") 115 gr HCM RN bullets.

- Using Flat Nose/Flat Point (FN/FP) bullets with longer base or heavier 124 gr RN/FN/FP bullets with even longer base.

Wyphy said:

I didn't see anything that suggested neck tension was measured by bullet removal difficulty, but being what I thought of as difficult to remove, I thought perhaps the bullet wasn't moving as easily as it should when fired, thus increasing pressure to possibly dangerous levels. I know quite small changes can make a big difference so wanted to err on the side of caution and maintain my current state of non-injury.

Was even more concerned after I tried the factory round and discovered it only took 2-3 whacks to pull.
I did consider that perhaps my whacks were a bit weak, and possibly on too soft a material, but again, with the factory round, that thought went out the window.
I may still need to work on my technique, and I probably need a different pounding block, but hopefully I won't be doing this much any more.

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We're glad you asked! 23 vs 2 whacks is certainly something to take note of. Some factory ammo is sealed with tar in the neck between the bullet and brass. Now, those are hard to pull! I use my shellholders to pull rounds in my inertia puller and The rims usually rip off the case before the bullet comes out. I find that the endgrain of a decently hard 2x4 works just as well as the concrete floor in my garage.

To add to what bds said, you may even find you need larger bullets for certain guns. My beretta m9 didnt shoot well with plated 115 and 124's. I slugged it and found out the bore was .358"! I started feeding it .358" coated lead and the groups tightened up significantly.

bds wrote:
I used to push on the bullet against the bench top to measure neck tension...

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That's exactly how the Speer Manual #11, page 385, said to do it.

hdwhit said:

That's exactly how the Speer Manual #11, page 385, said to do it.

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I hate to disagree with Speer as I like their products BUT pushing on the bullet against the bench top does not duplicate the impact force bullet experiences when slammed against the feed ramp.

Wyphy said:

Powder is Vectan BA9.

231/HP38, as recommended by a friend, was not available at the time (last year, yes it's taken me quite a while to find the time)

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During the "Great component shortage" we identified same or comparable powders to use as substitutes when more popular powders were not available - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-different-labels.797388/page-4#post-10471121

From THR group effort, we determined the following to be comparable powders from faster burning (for lighter target loads) to slower burning (for full power/higher velocity loads). Vectan Ba9 is at Unique/BE-86/Universal burn rate and if you are looking for comparable powder to W231/HP-38, it would be Vectan 206V but since load data does not list 206V for pistol calibers, may want to try faster burning Ba9 1/2 with load data - https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/20.pdf

BTW, different Vectan powder work up on BE forum with preference for Prima V for 9mm - http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/225930-noble-sport-vectan-powder-review/

- Alliant Bullseye and Vectan Ba10
- Alliant Red Dot and Vectan Ba9 1/2
- Hodgdon Clays/WST and Vectan Prima SV
- Hodgdon Titegroup and Vectan Prima V/AS
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Vectan 206V
- Accurate No. 5 and Vectan D-20
- Vihtavuori N330 and Vectan A1
- Unique/BE-86/Universal and Vectan Ba9
- Alliant Herco and Vectan A0
- Accurate No. 7 and Vectan Ba7 1/2
- Accurate No. 9 and Vectan Ba6 1/2

Regarding case flare... the less you flare your case and work the brass, the more times you'll be able to reload it. As has been said, just flare it enough to be able to set a bullet on there easily.

I know quite small changes can make a big difference so wanted to err on the side of caution and maintain my current state of non-injury.

This isn't entirely true. For the most part, as long as the powder charge remains a constant safe level you're not going to produce enough pressure to hurt your gun no matter how much you crimp or where you seat your bullet. It is possible to seat it into the lands and cause a case failure, but for the most part, your gun will be okay. There is probably a story somewhere about a guy who was loading over max loads and seated something too long and then blew up his gun but for the most part, there is a lot of wiggle room in reloading. That's what makes it so fun.

The whole "don't flare the case very much to save the case" should meet "penny wise and pound foolish."
I read a lot of posts about people who do the "don't flare too much" to the point where they are shaving the bullet. Go ahead, give the case a really good flare, such that you can actually seat the bullet straight and have it stay straight as you raise the ram any you'll have a lot better ammunition and you'll never notice the few cases that may have worn out due to too much flare.
Or, lightly chamfer the case inside and out and load jacketed bullets with no flare and no need for a crimp.
The main issue with too much crimp is 1) having a case that is supposed to head space on the case mouth actually enter the chamber throat (talk about over-pressure, as there is no place for the case mouth to expand) and 2) buckling the case such that it won't chamber.
Crimp is not some ultra precise, must-be-measured variable and, for cartridges that head space on the case mouth isn't even really a crimp.
Some one shooting an ultra-precise rifle at 0.4 MOA or less MIGHT find a variation due to crimp, but NOT for a 9x19 that can't even do 12 MOA.
Do what the manuals say and stop worrying so much.