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Solomonson
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Are you speaking of the Colt copies, those inspired by S&W or the that based on the Nambu?
I could see Ruger Buying Mossberg...
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Are you speaking of the Colt copies, those inspired by S&W or the that based on the Nambu?
JeeperCreeper
Member
I really like Ruger and Mossberg for two different reasons. Ruger has done so much in the gun industry from many designs (and some improved copies) as well as manufacturing. If I remember correctly, their business strategies used to be used as a case study for Harvard Business school back in the day due to their continued success. I like Mossberg because, like Ruger, they bring quality products at a great price making their firearms excellent value. Plus, they are the oldest family run firearm manufacturers.
I feel like both companies listen to their consumers and both have adapted well to the changing markets. That being said, I don't see why two successful companies that focus on value have to be concerned with being bought out. I know this is more of a casual conversation than a real issue, but I don't see how Ruger and Mossberg are connected other than being value based companies.
I like Oakley sunglasses. I also like Ray Bans. Doesn't mean that I think Oakley is going to buy out Ray Ban because they both make high end shades...
I feel like this is way too much of an opinion but you're kinda selling it like fact. From my observations, people I know only use Remington 870s and Mossberg 500s. Actually, my game 12 gauge is a Mossberg that was my dad's from the 80's (I think). I also have a 16 gauge that is a Sears Mossberg made gun from probably the 60's or 70's. Mossberg may not be as old as Remington or Winchester, but their shotguns have been popular in the market since the 60's, and are used all around the world.
They may be cheaper than a Benelli, but that is kinda like the Cadillac of the shotgun world. Mossberg 500 are still around $350ish brand new (excpet for the Maverick at around 200) which is right in line with the Rem 870. Just because you don't know anyone who uses one, doesn't mean they don't have a market share. Heck, none of my friends drive a Honda, doesn't mean it's a crappy car.
I feel like both companies listen to their consumers and both have adapted well to the changing markets. That being said, I don't see why two successful companies that focus on value have to be concerned with being bought out. I know this is more of a casual conversation than a real issue, but I don't see how Ruger and Mossberg are connected other than being value based companies.
I like Oakley sunglasses. I also like Ray Bans. Doesn't mean that I think Oakley is going to buy out Ray Ban because they both make high end shades...
I feel like this is way too much of an opinion but you're kinda selling it like fact. From my observations, people I know only use Remington 870s and Mossberg 500s. Actually, my game 12 gauge is a Mossberg that was my dad's from the 80's (I think). I also have a 16 gauge that is a Sears Mossberg made gun from probably the 60's or 70's. Mossberg may not be as old as Remington or Winchester, but their shotguns have been popular in the market since the 60's, and are used all around the world.
They may be cheaper than a Benelli, but that is kinda like the Cadillac of the shotgun world. Mossberg 500 are still around $350ish brand new (excpet for the Maverick at around 200) which is right in line with the Rem 870. Just because you don't know anyone who uses one, doesn't mean they don't have a market share. Heck, none of my friends drive a Honda, doesn't mean it's a crappy car.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I still don't think Ruger and Mossberg will ever come together, but if they did I'd like to see Ruger do something with the Mossberg lever guns. What exactly? Not sure, but Rugerize it.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Solomonson, you do realize that the Mossberg 464 levergun is a direct COPY of Winchester 1894, right? Not a copy by your definition of the word but an actual facsimile.
You were also asked to name a company that you think DOES innovate and you conveniently ignored that. Which seems to be typical because you ignore every direct question I posed to you.
You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. I've been shooting revolvers for 30yrs and have 59 of them, 20 of which are Rugers dating as far back as 1958. I have yet to run across a Ruger "Colt copy". While the "Old Model" single actions resemble the Colt action, with all of the flaws worked out, the New Model action is completely different. Which Ruger DA, exactly, is a copy of S&W? Because the Ruger designs are also completely different, also eliminating all of S&W's shortcomings. Your argument is uninformed and has no substance. It amounts to little more than a low-info anti-Ruger rant.
You were also asked to name a company that you think DOES innovate and you conveniently ignored that. Which seems to be typical because you ignore every direct question I posed to you.
I have to admit, I didn't expect much when Mossberg announced their new leverguns but handled an all weather version a while back. It seemed like a very nice rifle and I would've been tempted to bring it home if I didn't already have a few .30-30's.
S&W, Colt and the Japanese Army should be so lucky. Which of them was the designer of the Six series revolvers?
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Solomonson
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CoalTrain49
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Well we run in different crowds I guess. Benelli is the shotgun of choice with the pack that I hunted with. Just about everyone I know went with autoloaders a long time ago when steel became a reality. Mossberg isn't well known in the autoloader world. Remington was the only game in town for many years. Then Beretta and Benelli got into the game. Benelli ended up the top dog and Beretta purchased them to stop the bleeding. Mossberg doesn't have a presence in the high end double gun market either. That would be Beretta and Browning right now.
But you are right, pumps were pretty popular in the last century. I bought a new 870 in 1970, still have it.
Not everyone buys the least expensive shotgun on the market. Well, maybe the military and police departments do for obvious reasons but those are special purpose guns.
Seriously, visit your local sporting clays range and see how many Mossbergs are being used. Many of those people use the same shotgun for clays and hunting. Lots of autoloaders there. Also a very good indication of the shotgun market would be what you can find at Cabela's. A few special purpose Mossbergs there but overall it's Benelli and Franchi autoloaders by a very wide margin.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a Mossberg shotgun. If it does what you want it to do then that is really all you need. They just don't have the largest share of the shotgun market right now. Without a product line someplace other than the low end of the market they never will.
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Solomonson
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Thanks for your comments. I'm a died-in-the-wool Remington 870 (and Browning A5) fan but I do respect the Mossberg 500/590 because they are the Honda Civics of the shotgun world. They are very inexpensive, reliable and durable. It's quite wrong to equate aggressively-priced with low quality and it's nice to see you're not falling for that stereotype.
Mossberg also produces their even more aggressively-priced Maverick brand of shotguns that are amazing given their very low price point.
The Baretta/Benellis are nice shotguns indeed, but I suspect Mossberg sells at least 10x the shotguns Benelli does in the US.
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Solomonson
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Beretta owns Benelli (and Stoeger.) I know lots of people that hunt quail, pheasant, dove and pigeon around these parts with pumps and O/Us. Benellis seem more suited to guys that hang out at the trap/skeet range, but never really get around to shooting.
Both agencies spend a great deal on arms. I'm not as all sure why it would be obvious for them to buy the least expensive shotgun on the market? If you suggest that's because of competitive bidding, I'll begin laughing.
I did today. Lots of pumps. More Mossbergs than Benellis -- well, except for the guys that sit around drinking coffee and never really shoot.
Wait... You're suggesting that Benelli sells more shotguns in the US then Mossberg or Remington? LOL!!!
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Solomonson
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FWIW:
Shotguns produced in the USA in 2015:
OF Mossberg/Maverick: 347,658 (TX)
Remington: 333,442 (318,990 NY), (14,449 AL), (3 KY)
Beretta/Benelli/Stoeger: 28,362 (MD)
Rf: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/afmer-2015-final/download
Beretta no doubt imported a fair number of firearms, but between their imported firearms and those they actually built in MD, I suspect they didn't come anywhere near HALF Mossberg's or Remington's numbers.
I believe this was the first year (2015) that Mossberg bested Big Green is shotgun production numbers.
Shotguns produced in the USA in 2015:
OF Mossberg/Maverick: 347,658 (TX)
Remington: 333,442 (318,990 NY), (14,449 AL), (3 KY)
Beretta/Benelli/Stoeger: 28,362 (MD)
Rf: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/afmer-2015-final/download
Beretta no doubt imported a fair number of firearms, but between their imported firearms and those they actually built in MD, I suspect they didn't come anywhere near HALF Mossberg's or Remington's numbers.
I believe this was the first year (2015) that Mossberg bested Big Green is shotgun production numbers.
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Solomonson
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Ruger is very adept as roll-stamping "warnings" onto their firearms...
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Ruger has become very adept at moving the warning roll marks to less visible locations in the last 1/2 decade. For instance, my Single Six has the warning on the underside of the barrel out of normal view.
I was hoping a comment from you would be more pertinent to what Ruger would do with the Mossberg lever guns if Ruger bought Mossberg. I'm thinking a starting point would be to redesign the Mossberg extractor as I've read it's the weak point of that gun. Another thought would be to take the 464 Brush Gun (which is Marine Coat steel) and make it out of stainless steel. Possibly offer synthetic stocks for a stainless Brush Gun to lighten it up a little more while they're at it.
This is a weird thread. You come across as a Mossberg fan and a Ruger "disliker", but you think Ruger should buy out Mossberg. Why?
Do you think Mossberg would make Ruger "better"?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Exactly! Now it has degraded into whining people who buy premium shotguns, more "proletentiousness". You know the Mossberg snob who looks down his nose at Berettas is no better than the Beretta snob who looks down his nose at Mossbergs, right?
And I don't know why anyone would be surprised that budget priced shotguns outsell premium brands like Beretta and Benelli. I bought a Benelli last year for my wife and could've gotten a crate of Mossbergs for what it cost. Was Mossberg even a factor in the decision-making process? No.
I guess there's going to be no response about Mossberg copying Winchester.
And I don't know why anyone would be surprised that budget priced shotguns outsell premium brands like Beretta and Benelli. I bought a Benelli last year for my wife and could've gotten a crate of Mossbergs for what it cost. Was Mossberg even a factor in the decision-making process? No.
I guess there's going to be no response about Mossberg copying Winchester.
CoalTrain49
Member
Correct. Those are older guys who have enough money to buy any shotgun they want. Don't confuse the fact that they are hanging around the range with a high dollar shotgun with the fact that they can't or don't shoot. They've probably spent lots of time in the field or burning powder at the range, or both. If they're shooting a high end gun that should give you a clue. Have you ever shot for money? If not you should give it a go. Try to get into your local tuesday night clandestine money shoot (usually by invitation ) and put your money down. No tactical Mossbergs there. It isn't a police qualifying event.
Ever wonder why you see so many LE agencies with Glocks? Or why the the Army just purchased new Sig 320's. Low dollar guns is why. The same reason agencies and the military buy Mossbergs. How do you think that Sig contract came about? Lowest price per unit offer. It was around $300.
When did we start talking about Remington shotguns? I thought we were discussing Mossbergs and Benelli? I'm not sure you can really compare number of sales between Mossberg and Benelli. All Benellis are made in Italy. That's like comparing the sales of Mossbergs and Benelli's in Europe. I'm sure if you wanted a Mossberg in Italy some dealer would get you one. It would probably cost about the same as a Benelli so what's your point with sales numbers? Apples and orangutans. Of course Mossberg sells more shotguns in the US, they make them here in a RTW state and sell them in Walmart.
People buy what they can afford. Mossberg is a good shotgun for the money. So is a Remington. Until you have owned a Benelli or some other high end gun don't be so quick to judge. I've owned Remington's, Browning's, Berettas and some British guns you've probably never heard of. Mossberg and Ruger aren't the only gun manufactures doing business around the world.
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Solomonson
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Let's tackle the lever action rifles first. I think that's another natural market for Ruger given their existing product mix, but the thought of having their face ripped off in that market by Mossberg, Marlin/Remington (despite their quality issues) and now Henry has kept Ruger out of the market.
To be honest, if Ruger gained control of Mossberg, a good goal would be (after dumping that silly tactical lever gun) to build Mossberg into the dominant lever gun maker that was once held by the likes of Marlin and Winchester/USRA and is now being taken over by Henry Repeating Arms with a very "different" product.
Do I think Mossberg would make Ruger better? That would largely depend on how good of a deal Ruger could negotiate with the Mossberg Family. I don't see this as a huge "integration" project along the likes of what Remington is going through. Both entities would remain under an umbrella -- focused on what they do best, discontinue any overlap that doesn't make sense and make best use of the combined company's strengths.
I'm neither a bit Mossberg fan nor a big Ruger fan. What I do think is that there are synergies between the two companies.
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JeeperCreeper
Member
I definitely agree, for high end guns and semi autos, Beretta, Benelli, Browning, Franchi scatter guns are the bees-knees. I don't really shoot trap, but I would guess the high end guns dominate the "country club" shooting sports (I don't mean that as a derogatory term) where the "classy sportsman" do classy things.
But if you look at 3 gun, many blue-collar hunters (which is probably most hunters), military and police (like you said), or any "tactical" style events, they are dominated by Remington and Mossberg.
I guess it's like cars... the Porsche dominates the racetrack while Chevy and Ford dominate the mud pit. Depends on the buyer and the sport. I think that's my third car metaphor this thread....
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Solomonson
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Two more points...
Ruger buying Henry Repeating Arms. Almost zero overlap.
Mossberg making a run at Ruger, rather than the reverse.
Ruger buying Henry Repeating Arms. Almost zero overlap.
Mossberg making a run at Ruger, rather than the reverse.
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Solomonson
Member
It has more to do with perceived prestige than anything else. Expensive doubles that make Benellis look like Wal*Mart specials are even more common. Yes, I've shot with these GOBs and I hold my own, without the use of a Parazzi.
Largely because they are the best, most reliable firearms for the job?
I was responding to your earlier comment:
All Benellis are not made in Italy. I challenge you to provide proof that Beretta (not just its Benelli label) sells more shotguns worldwide then Mossberg does.
LOL!! What makes you think I haven't owned/own "some other high end gun"? Shall we start another discussion about shotguns from: Purdey & Sons, H&H, Boss & Sons, James Woodward & Sons, et. al?
Kookla
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I've seen a lot of hunters around here who use Mossberg pumps. Usually the folks at the trap line aren't using pump guns at all, unless they're just dipping their toes or doing it informally.
Most of the people I've seen shoot trap and sporting clays regularly use higher end guns. If I had to guess as to why, I'm sure that things like fit, pride in ownership and holding up to high round counts are a few reasons.
Most of the people I've seen shoot trap and sporting clays regularly use higher end guns. If I had to guess as to why, I'm sure that things like fit, pride in ownership and holding up to high round counts are a few reasons.
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Solomonson
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That's a very interesting reply. I shot a Steel Challenge match yesterday beginning in the morning. We were done before 1:00 PM so I decided to walk over to the shotgun range and take part in the trap competition that was preparing to start..
As were were leaving the action shooting bays, the 3Gun folks were descending for their own match. Many of the competitors were exactly as you describe. And between their wheelie carts of armaments, they had more invested overall in their wares than the coffee drinkers at the shotgun range.
When I got to the shotgun range I was viewed with veiled contempt by a handful due to my sweaty attire (boonie hat, hiking shirt, cargo shorts and New Balance sneakers) and my gun (an older Miroku/Daly Superior Trap single shot.) Thankfully some of my friends were there (the Purdey and H&H shooters) that welcomed me.
FWIW, Ford and Chevy do quite well on the track as well...
CoalTrain49
Member
There is no holding your own in a money shoot so obviously you aren't shooting for money. You're either losing money or winning money. From your response I can see you don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
Is that a question? The military and LE can't buy any firearm they want. They have budget constraints. The P-320 is one of the cheapest striker fired pistols on the market. Best, I sincerely doubt it. Glock is probably the best striker pistol. They lost that contract because they just couldn't deliver the gun for the price that Sig did.
Then where are they made? According to this they're all made in Italy.
http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/guns-benelli-gun-history/2015/05/01/id/642102/
I don't think those numbers are available. Mossberg shotguns are made for the US market. Are you thinking they are marketing pump shotguns in Europe and UK? Not likely. They don't shot pumps over there. That's pretty much an American thing.
You just don't sound like a guy who shoots a Perazzi.
You said so yourself.So what high end guns have you owned? The really expensive auto loading Mossbergs don't count.
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Solomonson
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I didn't comment whether we gambled or not.
Best for the application (and monsterous surrounding politics) I suspect. Oh and prove your belief that Glock lost due to price. Anything to back up your personal belief?
Go look at the BATF report I referenced and their production in Accokeek, MD.
Why do you keep trying to limit this discussion to pumps? Both Mossberg and Remington make fine semi-autos as well. Benelli makes pumps too.
Oh? Any logic based on your comment or are you just being rude?
A Mossberg shotgun might have the ability to be very "Really expensive" to you perhaps. Not to me, however.
CoalTrain49
Member
So I'll ask you again. What high end guns have you owned?
CoalTrain49
Member
Why not?
I've read Sig's offer was $300/unit and $207/unit. Not sure which but everyone knows Glock should have landed that contract. Glock protested.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...07-per-pistol-sig-sauer-m17-modular-handguns/
The ATF doesn't know that Benellis are made in Italy? Incredible.
Do these guys sound like they're from MD?
Just being rude.
Nope. The last shotgun I purchased was a Beretta 682 Gold E. Can't remember exactly how much it cost but if IIRC it was more than a Mossberg but less than a Perazzi.
Does the ATF think Perazzi shotguns are made in the US too?
Glad you like your Mossberg. I'm done.
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