If you could resurrect a dead cartridge, which one would you chose?

50-90 Sharps, aka 50-2 1/2

Really all the old BP cartridges. They're seriously fun to shoot, even if not practical for much of anything nowadays.

.22 Savage Hi-Power. A great round for Shotgun/ Rifle combo guns, I'd love to build a Martini or Sharps/Borchardt on that caliber someday.

blue32 said:

32 and 38 short and long rimfire. I'd like to see both in a modern lever and bolt gun.

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That would be excellent. I've long had a dream of getting the equipment to make all the rimfires from .25 Stevens to 56-56 Spencer.

Derp.

I wrote about my choice, then decided to google it and see if it's actually around. It is. lol

In my defense, I think the last time I heard someone mention 22 Hornet is when I read "Deathwatch" which was published in 1972.

.275 H&H Magnum.

I'd say .358 Winchester if I didn't reload for it

I know Hornady runs some once in a blue moon but good luck finding it. For all intents and purposes it's a dead caliber

.256 Newton (a bit more evolved than a 6.5-06). With today's powders, it has a lot of potential. It is really a 6.5mm (.264). I have no idea why Charles Newton called it a .256

358 Winchester. I could hardly think of a better mid range hunting cartridge for a bolt gun in this country.

Nature Boy said:

I'd say .358 Winchester if I didn't reload for it

I know Hornady runs some once in a blue moon but good luck finding it. For all intents and purposes it's a dead caliber

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I guess it depends on what you mean by "dead" - I don't think of a cartridge that's got brass or is a single sizing die away from something you can buy brass for as "dead". At worst it's just slipped back to being a very easy wildcat.

Llama Bob said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "dead" - I don't think of a cartridge that's got brass or is a single sizing die away from something you can buy brass for as "dead". At worst it's just slipped back to being a very easy wildcat.

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All of that is true, but if you don't reload and are relying on finding factory ammo, it's pretty much dead.

Let's put it this way. It may not be technically dead, but and the family has been called and the mortician has an appointment on his schedule a week from Thursday

I do not for one second think the levergun is on its way out or that it's inappropriate for dangerous game, in any way, shape, form or fashion. Apparently, neither does Marlin, Winchester or Henry. Much of the problem there is one of perception. We have long been using the wrong measuring stick to quantify the ability of a cartridge, kinetic energy. In that regard, levergun cartridges usually fall short. However, seeing as how all the dangerous game in the world has been taken with handguns producing a fraction of the energy of a good stopping rifle, the levergun is in good stead somewhere in the upper middle. Even so, the best stoppers don't exceed 2200fps and that is not 'that' far off of what is possible with a heavy bullet out of a big bore levergun.

MachIVshooter said:

None. Truly defunct cartridges are gone for a reason.....

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Yes but they aren't always good reasons. I don't equate popularity and validity. Many very good ideas have failed in the marketplace for one reason or another but you give the fickle shooter too much credit.

Llama Bob said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "dead" - I don't think of a cartridge that's got brass or is a single sizing die away from something you can buy brass for as "dead". At worst it's just slipped back to being a very easy wildcat.

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I have to agree and we will all have different definitions of "dead" or "obsolete". To me, if you can buy brass, dies and bullets, it's a long way from dead. To others, if they can't buy ammo at Walmart, it's deader than fried chicken.

JeffG said:

.458×2-inch American
A wildcat created by Frank Barnes. I suppose all I would have to do is have a rifle chambered for it...but it was a great bolt action cartridge.

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Pretty much the same thing as the 450 Marlin, which while not quite dead is fading fast. It's too bad Barnes didn't live to see its heyday, I think he would have gotten a kick out of it.

Varminterror said:

There are a few NEAR obsolete rounds out there today which I hope don't go down the tubes, like .256win mag...

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I'm a fan of the 256 WM, but nobody makes guns for it and none of the majors, nor any of the boutiques I can think of, make ammo or even brass for it any more. How much more obsolete can it get?

While not completely "dead", I can't think of any firearm being currently offered in 357max.

I'd like to see a S&W Xframe in the 357max. I think it'd be a good match.

CraigC said:

I do not for one second think the levergun is on its way out or that it's inappropriate for dangerous game, in any way, shape, form or fashion. Apparently, neither does Marlin, Winchester or Henry. Much of the problem there is one of perception. We have long been using the wrong measuring stick to quantify the ability of a cartridge, kinetic energy. In that regard, levergun cartridges usually fall short. However, seeing as how all the dangerous game in the world has been taken with handguns producing a fraction of the energy of a good stopping rifle, the levergun is in good stead somewhere in the upper middle. Even so, the best stoppers don't exceed 2200fps and that is not 'that' far off of what is possible with a heavy bullet out of a big bore levergun.

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It's also true that the best solids - copper/brass monolithics with wide, flat meplats - do not gain much penetration with velocity. Something like a Northfork solid will go a long ways whether it hits at 1800 ft/s or 2200 ft/s. The wound channels will be about the same. We're talking ~70" of penetration, even with bone strikes on heavy bones. So for them, kinetic energy is a horrible metric. If you want a bigger wound, you need a wider solid.

Softs do benefit from impact velocity and thus kinetic energy a bit more. But lever guns, which are fundamentally case capacity limited due to overall length, do better with softs than they do with solids since the softs are shorter (lead is denser than copper/brass) and thus more powder capacity is retained. As you note, most stopping calibers top out at 2200ish ft/s. Some can drive bullets faster, but in general the bullet manufacturers don't recommend it - for example, Woodleigh lists a max velocity of between 2000 and 2250 for the vast majority of their big bore softs, and those are arguably the best bullets in the world for the application. A 45-70 in the 1886 will drive a Woodleigh 405gr soft at 2100 ft/s. That's a legitimate first stopping shot on anything but an elephant frontal brain shot. If elephant is on the menu, you probably want to switch to a Punch Bullet solid (same velocity). I know two people who have take that elephant frontal shot with a punch bullet, one was a .45-70 and one was a .45-90 but loaded no faster than could be done with .45-70. Both found the back of the elephant brain pan. Both lived to tell the tale.

The other very notable advantage of leverguns for dangerous game is that they have about twice the rate of fire of a Mauser - on par with a double through shot 2, and faster (and without a very stressful reload) past that. Since it is always wise to fire more than one shot in a stopping scenario (even if only as insurance), rate of fire matters.

405 Winchester. If the Winchester 1895 had been easier to carry, the cartridge might still be around; it would fill a niche.

Well, since Corn-Picker never responded to my request for clarification, here goes:

I would "ressurect" the 22 Spitfire as the 223 Varmint.

The 22 Spitfire (also known as the 5.7mm Johnson) was an attempt to produce a high-velocity round for the 30 Carbine and relied on a normal case necked-down to 22 caliber. Numerous problems plagued the initial launch of this cartridge including the fact that many of the rifles chambered for it had undersized bores which caused pressure problems that artificially limited the cartridge's potential. Also, because the original idea was to simply rebarrel M1 Carbines, the cartridge was limited by the M1 Carbine's 4130 steel receiver and its limited heat treatment which limited chamber pressure to 40,000 psi (or its copper or lead crusher equivalent).

The 30 Carbine brass is capable of handling 48,000 psi if properly supported by the bolt and chamber. So, in its resurrected form, the 223 Varmint would utilize this higher pressure. Barrels would be true .224 barrels with the neck opened by 4/10,000 inch to prevent the neck pinching the bullet and leades cut as much as 3/1,000 shorter than that of the original 22 Spitfire to assist with accuracy.

Firing 40 grain .224 bullets through a .2235 barrel with the legacy 22 Spitfire, I have been able to consistently realize velocities of around 2800 fps without pressure signs. With a properly sized barrel of approximately 22 inches in length attached to a bolt action receiver and utilizing powders that could take full advantrage of the barrel's length that were not avaiable in the 1960's; such as Accurate Arms 5744 or Norma 200, computations suggest that 40 grain velocities of 3,200 fps and 45 grain velocities of 3,000 fps would be readily achievable.

Since the parent case is the (still) readily available 30 Carbine case and it can be formed (although not optimallly) in a single pass through a set of readilly available reloading dies, it would be a value proposition for those looking for a high speed, very low recoil, flat shooting cartridge with ballistics superior to the perennial favorite, the 22 Hornet. For those still shooting some of the seven million or so M1 Carbines still in civilian hands, the transition would involve nothing more than buying a new set of reloading dies.

VThillman said:

405 Winchester. If the Winchester 1895 had been easier to carry, the cartridge might still be around; it would fill a niche.

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I don't find the 1895 wanting in that regard. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised what a usable rifle it is.

CraigC said:

I don't find the 1895 wanting in that regard. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised what a usable rifle it is.

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The .405 is also involved in the strangest ballistic mystery I've ever seen in my life. I have accurate strain gauge pressure traces of VV N133 pushing a 300gr solid in it, where the peak pressure is 1/2 what it should be, and held up for roughly twice as long as it should be, given the resulting velocity. That should be flat out impossible - as the bullet moves, the expanding cylinder behind it should drop pressure in a fairly predictable way (ideal gas law and all that).

If I could figure out how to reproduce this effect on demand in arbitrary cartridges with powders of similar energy per space density, it would be possible to increase the muzzle energy of just about any cartridge notably. But I've only seen it on the .405, and only with one powder, and have NO clue why.

Llama Bob said:

The .405 is also involved in the strangest ballistic mystery I've ever seen in my life. I have accurate strain gauge pressure traces of VV N133 pushing a 300gr solid in it, where the peak pressure is 1/2 what it should be, and held up for roughly twice as long as it should be, given the resulting velocity. That should be flat out impossible - as the bullet moves, the expanding cylinder behind it should drop pressure in a fairly predictable way (ideal gas law and all that).

If I could figure out how to reproduce this effect on demand in arbitrary cartridges with powders of similar energy per space density, it would be possible to increase the muzzle energy of just about any cartridge notably. But I've only seen it on the .405, and only with one powder, and have NO clue why.

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Tapered bore barrel?

CraigC said:

I don't find the 1895 wanting in that regard. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised what a usable rifle it is.

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Par owned one. I carried it deer hunting a few times. An unfortunate balance point, and heavy. That gun was in 35 Winchester.

entropy said:

.22 Savage Hi-Power. A great round for Shotgun/ Rifle combo guns, I'd love to build a Martini or Sharps/Borchardt on that caliber someday.

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Shop around hard enough and you can buy one made by the factory.



I don't know how many 22 Savage High Power Martini Cadets BSA made, but it can't have been many, this is the only one I've ever seen or heard of.

Llama Bob said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "dead" - I don't think of a cartridge that's got brass or is a single sizing die away from something you can buy brass for as "dead". At worst it's just slipped back to being a very easy wildcat.

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when nobody is making a new rifle and you can't easily buy ammo, its on the endangered species list. When brass and reloading dies are no longer available, its dead.