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Axis II

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I shot a large deer last year with TC shockwaves and 120gr of 777 pellets and while the gun shot like a lazer I didn't get a pass through, the entrance was about the diameter of the bullet and 0 blood for 100yards. I hear that I can buy sabots and bullets and try different combos. I'm shooting a cva optima V2 50cal.

what bullet, sabot combo do you guys suggest and should I switch from 777 to Blackhorn 209? trying to get ducks in a row so I can do this now before bow season opens.
 
I am VERY old school. My recommendation would be to get / build a 44", 50cal, 1-72 twist full stock flint lock and learn to shoot it. Then you will have a proper ML rifle that will kill deer all day long out to 100yds.


Like I said, I am VERY old school.
 
My recommendation? A patched round ball out of something like this:

20170323_205651-1.jpg

Works every time, no magical sabots or wonder pellets needed.
 
A lot of people love Black Horn 209 and if you decide to use it they make a special breech plug to use with your gun and they also recommend using a magnum primer , so that you do not get hang fires .

I have a Accura V1 and I got hang fires with Black Horn , even with a modified breech plug , 209 magnum primers and yes the plug is clean . So I do not want to take a chance of a nice deer using it . It is fun on the range because you don't have to swab the barrel every shoot like 777 and some others .

I have been using Hornady SST 250 gr. bullets and 2 White Hots . I am getting pass through , but no expansion and they are pretty accurate . I have switched to Barnes Expander MZ bullets 250 gr. , but I have not shoot a deer with these yet and they are just as accurate as the Hornady .
 
I shoot 240grn XTP Mags in black harvester sabots, at about 1950 fps. Ive shoot clean thru 2 goats broad side at one time, and one end to end another. The bullets dont expand very well on the light bodied animals, but should work wonderfully on larger heavier bodied deer.

Also when choosing bullets for use in your .50 cal muzzle loader you need to match your BULLET dia to your SABOT dia. .451/.452 Pistol bullets take the Black Harvester 45/50 Sabots, if you want to shot .458Dia Rifle bullets, youll need the Orange Harvester 45/50 Sabots.

I mention this because im in the process of switching to .458 rifle bullets. While i can cram a 300grn nosler Btip into my muzzle loader with a black one, Ive only got that first shot as after the guns fouled its too tight to get another in.

If you like i can send you some of the Black Harvesters, since i need to order some Orange ones.
Id offer you some of the 240xtp mags also, but i just loaded the last of those into my .45Super
 
you don't really want a complete pass through it's wasted energy. You didn't say what type deer.
Here in Wyoming we have white tail and Muley's I find I took more deer in my hunting days with my Traditional CVA percussion with about 80 gr FFG and a a 350 gr plain soft lead conical bullet
then I did with my 7mm the 7 had pass through and little shock power
The Muzzleloader seldom passed through, most of the time the deer went down like hit in head with a BFH!
you don't say what caliber you are shooting or the bullet
Personally have no use for sabots
 
DD4lifeusmc said:
you don't really want a complete pass through it's wasted energy.
Click to expand...
There are two schools of thought on the matter, I tend to gravitate the other way, but not completely. I personally like bullets to exit, entry wounds offten dont leave much of a blood trail. With slower rounds that dont generate much velocity shock, such as muzzle loaders I much prefer to have an exit wound, but i also want a bullet soft enough that it tears up a good deal of internal tissue.
My switch to the 300grn Noslers is because ive worked with them from my .458 Socom which launches them just a bit faster than ill get from my muzzle loader, complete pass throughs on 150-200lb pigs with 2-4" exit wounds. I have yet to use them on our light bodied goats, but im hopping to get more expansion that the 240XTP Mags.

I do agree tho, big fat soft lead slugs hit like freight trains.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
what diameter 45 bullets?
Click to expand...
.452
I tried using several different 44 cal bullets (.429) and the correct sabots. Could only get 4-5 inch groups at 100yds.
Going to .452 bullets and 50/45 sabots I get groups under 2 inches. I also use powder not pellets. With too much velocity sabots can fail and accuracy is gone. If I remember correctly, about 1800 fps is the limit for my rifle. With powder it's easy to fine tune a load for the best accuracy and it's cheaper.
 
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very rarely does a pure soft lead fail to expand a lot and create a large internal wound channel even in soft organ tissue.
Never had a problem tracking a Muley except once in high sage brush. he dropped almost instantly.
The brush made it difficult to find where he was laying as they blended together so well
 
I was looking on cabelas website at sabots and found .429-.430 &.451-.452.

for the .451-.452 sabots can I use say a 450 bushmaster rifle bullet .452 or is it strictly a pistol bullet?
 
The 450 uses .452 dia bullets so yes they should work. Infact the SSTs are very likely the same bullets offered in hornadys sabot rounds for muzzle loaders.
 
DD4lifeusmc said:
very rarely does a pure soft lead fail to expand a lot and create a large internal wound channel even in soft organ tissue.
Never had a problem tracking a Muley except once in high sage brush. he dropped almost instantly.
The brush made it difficult to find where he was laying as they blended together so well
Click to expand...
Yeow. I hate when that happens.
 
I shoot a:

T/C Strike
84 gr. By weight of Blackhorn 209
CCI primer
Harvester 300 grain PT gold 45 cal.
Harvester crush rib sabots - 45/50 cal.

This combination is a solid 200 yard combination. I might claim longer yardage after I visit a longer than 200 yard range.
 
drunkenpoacher said:
Try Hornady 45 cal 250 gr HP/XTP's with Harvester Muzzleloading crush rib sabots.
Click to expand...

I would only recommend the .452 HP/XTPs for lower velocity loads. I shot a small 3 point with that bullet and sabot combo with 70 gr. of BH209 (by weight) and the bullet broke up on the shoulder. It didn't penetrate.
Look at the recommended velocities for your bullets first. The 300 XTP would be perfect for an inline at velocities over 1800 fps.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
I shot a large deer last year with TC shockwaves and 120gr of 777 pellets and while the gun shot like a lazer I didn't get a pass through, the entrance was about the diameter of the bullet and 0 blood for 100yards. I hear that I can buy sabots and bullets and try different combos. I'm shooting a cva optima V2 50cal.
Click to expand...

So..., you popped a deer with something like a 200 - 250 grain projectile and a screaming hot load. Yet the bullet didn't pass through, and poor blood trail. The ancient .45-70 cartridge would pollaxe deer out to 200 yards (and bison at 100), with a 405 grain lead bullet and a mere 70 grains of black powder, so there is something wrong with your bullet, and that hot load may be contributing to the problem.

Well the boys who made the suggestions above, like me that shoot traditional round ball, drop deer within sight of where we hit them and yes we do reach out beyond 100 yards. Elk too, and some of the fellers go for Moose with success. On deer we get pass through, and both lungs deflated, or a shoulder shot that smacks the spine too. Yet I don't get the impression that you're willing to switch to a traditional ML. Moving on.....

IF you're dead set on that 120 grain powder load :confused: you probably should dump the TC Shockwaves, and try the TC Mag Express https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-with-240-grain-hornady-xtp-bullet-pack-of-30. Patocazador is right, those bullets are Honady HP XTP's and will probably not too well at lower velocities.

On the other hand, if you might want to give your shoulder a rest, I'd suggest you back off to about 80 to 95 grains of either black powder or a granular substitute, and shoot these all lead bullets in a sabot https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...240-grain-lead-hollow-point-bullet-pack-of-20 Don't let the name fool you, if they didn't work they would have been discontinued for lack of sales. ;) See I think what your shockwaves are doing is what the original pointy minnie ball did back in the 1860's when they were tried on large game..., i think they are deflecting on impact, or since they are jacketed, they may even be separating and the core deflecting, and then breaking up. (The original conical, rifle bullets were reviled for hunting big game, especially large dangerous game) Now the XTP's are pretty flat nosed, though jacketed so with that whopper powder load might do very well, and the TC Cheap Shots are all lead hollow points and with a moderate load, will probably surprise the heck out of you.

Of course the folks that sell sabot bullets are in business, so if you want to drop that extra $5 -$10 per pack of jacketed, spitzer pointed, sabot bullets, and take your chances, disregard what I've written.

LD
 
For many years i hunted hogs and deer with a .50 caliber muzzleloader using the excellent .430 240 grain XTP bullet. Killed dozens of deer and hogs with that bullet and had many bang flops. Sometimes there was a pass through, sometimes not. Later began using the 250 grain SST bullet: That bullet worked well for me. The hog that is my avatar went about 200 yards after being hit through both lungs with the 250 grain SST. The bullet was found under the skin on the off side.

Am still using the 250 grain SST bullet in a couple guns. My Encore is loaded with 120 grains of Black MZ and the .452 caliber 300 grain XTP Magnum bullet. i could really care less about pass through but that bullet goes through both shoulders of a 350 pound hog every time. Recently i shot a buck at 120 yards: He went 12-15 yards and expired. The bullet costs about $0. 35 each compared to $.075 or more for the SST.

Bullet placement is very important. i sometimes shoot deer and hogs with a .50 or .54 muzzleloader and patched round balls. Put in the right place, round balls kill about as well as anything else.

i have tracked dozens of wounded deer and elk for other hunters: Most were gut shot.
 
Loyalist Dave said:
So..., you popped a deer with something like a 200 - 250 grain projectile and a screaming hot load. Yet the bullet didn't pass through, and poor blood trail. The ancient .45-70 cartridge would pollaxe deer out to 200 yards (and bison at 100), with a 405 grain lead bullet and a mere 70 grains of black powder, so there is something wrong with your bullet, and that hot load may be contributing to the problem.

Well the boys who made the suggestions above, like me that shoot traditional round ball, drop deer within sight of where we hit them and yes we do reach out beyond 100 yards. Elk too, and some of the fellers go for Moose with success. On deer we get pass through, and both lungs deflated, or a shoulder shot that smacks the spine too. Yet I don't get the impression that you're willing to switch to a traditional ML. Moving on.....

IF you're dead set on that 120 grain powder load :confused: you probably should dump the TC Shockwaves, and try the TC Mag Express https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-with-240-grain-hornady-xtp-bullet-pack-of-30. Patocazador is right, those bullets are Honady HP XTP's and will probably not too well at lower velocities.

On the other hand, if you might want to give your shoulder a rest, I'd suggest you back off to about 80 to 95 grains of either black powder or a granular substitute, and shoot these all lead bullets in a sabot https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...240-grain-lead-hollow-point-bullet-pack-of-20 Don't let the name fool you, if they didn't work they would have been discontinued for lack of sales. ;) See I think what your shockwaves are doing is what the original pointy minnie ball did back in the 1860's when they were tried on large game..., i think they are deflecting on impact, or since they are jacketed, they may even be separating and the core deflecting, and then breaking up. (The original conical, rifle bullets were reviled for hunting big game, especially large dangerous game) Now the XTP's are pretty flat nosed, though jacketed so with that whopper powder load might do very well, and the TC Cheap Shots are all lead hollow points and with a moderate load, will probably surprise the heck out of you.

Of course the folks that sell sabot bullets are in business, so if you want to drop that extra $5 -$10 per pack of jacketed, spitzer pointed, sabot bullets, and take your chances, disregard what I've written.

LD
Click to expand...
thanks for your help. I am switching to blackhorn or loose 777 this year so I can play with charges. I tried 2 bullets with 100gr pellets and couldn't get it to group and that's why I tried the 120gr and it shrunk my groups. I am thinking the xtp is the way to go also.
 
I've seen too many XTP failures to ever trust them. It sounds like your bullet failed and that is a problem. I'd start with a hardcast LBT or one of Speer's bonded bullets at a minimum. At the upper end, the Swift A-frame.


DD4lifeusmc said:
you don't really want a complete pass through it's wasted energy.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you kinda do and no, there's no such thing as wasted energy. I wouldn't use a .45 caliber bullet that didn't exit on deer. :confused:
 
if the bullet does not pass through, then all the energy is expended in knocking it down
I shot two antelope one time at about 150 yd with one bullet from my 7mm
the first one hit walked off as if nothing happened the 2nd dropped like a rock
the first did die but I had to track him.
I learned to dial down my loads.
the faster the bullet goes down the barrel (in hunting guns) the more damage it does to the barrel
I still shoot my 1977/ 78 CVA mountain rifle in 50 cal 1:48 I use 250 and 320 conicals
They have more than enough impact energy
I will stay with them.
Don't hunt anymore can't walk that much that long now days But do plenty target practice to keep the skill viable.
 
Energy does not "knock down" anything. Sorry but this whole idea of "energy dump" or "energy transfer" has been debunked. A bullet that stops under the hide on the off side is not more effective than one that exits. Tissue destruction is all that matters.
 
[QUOTE Energy does not "knock down" anything. Sorry but this whole idea of "energy dump" or "energy transfer" has been debunked. A bullet that stops under the hide on the off side is not more effective than one that exits. Tissue destruction is all that matters.][/QUOTE]
guessing you need to take a physics class.
hit a tin can with a bb gun then do it again with a 22 then a 44 then a 50
As the energy increases so does the force of the impact
yes an animal may die hit properly with a pass through from blood loss, and the kinetic energy as the bullet expands. but you will get better knockdown power if the bullet does not exit.
much like a nail into wood. as compared to a flat tipped bolt
like I said earlier when hunting Antelope the first one the bullet passed through he didn't hardly flinch,
but when it hit the one behind him the bullet had slowed down. it went in didn't come out and he dropped right there he didn't just drop but was pushed sideways about 4 ft and slammed (lack of better word) to the ground.
the first one I had to track a half mile or so before he finally bled out
So yes you want the hydraulic shock to stay contained.
Why do you think advertisers of guns and bullets talk so much about energy of impact.
you don't need velocity ( although velocity is part of the formula for determining energy) as much as you need energy and knock down power.
shoot a paper target with your rifle bullet passes through with nothing but a hole shoot a block of 1 x 4
now a hole and some splintering now a 2x 4 4x 4 as the wood gets thicker and heavier the bullet is impeded and the wood moves farther away from the impact because one, the bullet expands and because the energy pushes it same with a game animal if the bullet doesn't just speed on through the animal it will knock it down
slowing your bullet down gives it more time to fully expand giving it a bigger wound channel
just do some experimenting you will see the results
Don't know about you but I'm too old and stove up to go tracking an animal that wandered off
Anyway that's my experience.
I use a CVA mountain rifle about 80gr ffg and a heavy bullet shoot at 100 yd or less (now days less, can't see that far anymore) haven't had to track one in over 15 yr. If I am shooting in heavy thickets where the shot will be less than 50 yards I'll use 70 to 75 gr.
 
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DD4lifeusmc said:
yes an animal may die hit properly with a pass through from blood loss, and the kinetic energy as the bullet expands. but you will get better knockdown power if the bullet does not exit.
Click to expand...
Huh? :confused:

The energy that is used by projectile X that passes within the animal and stops just inside the skin on the opposite side, is slightly LESS than the same projectile with a little more velocity that actually exits the animal. In other words.... If your 170 grain bullet hits the deer at 900 fps, and stops within the animal, and mine is a duplicate of yours and hits adjacent to yours, but at 1000 fps, The same amount of "energy" is delivered by both projectiles..., when mine arrives next to yours, although mine has extra MV which allows it to continue past and exit, and any remaining velocity is wasted after exit from the animal. You don't deliver more "energy" because your bullet failed to exit. They are equal.

Which is why folks get very different results even when shooting the same ammunition from identical rifles at identical ranges, vs. animals that are twins...., there's a lot more to terminal ballistics beyond "energy". ;)

Oh and from a physiology stand point, an animal without functioning lungs goes down quicker than one with partial function..., two large holes are better than one for deflating the lungs (and doubles the locations from which the animal can bleed to leave a trail IF tracking is needed). Don't worry about physics as much as about animal anatomy, I'd say.

LD
 
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