Re-visted a 45C load.

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whughett

whughett

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Some years ago a friend texted me a note on a "Gallery Load" for the 45C. 35 grains of 3F, lubed felt wad and a .454 round ball seated with a crimp. Recently discovered it in my phones note and gave it a try.
Unsized brass,Winchester Large pistol primer, 2.2 CC of 3f, the 1/8 wool lubed wad and the ball seated to roughly half its diameter. The crimp die set to what I normally use for any 45C bullet.

Ran fifty of them thru my ROA's conversion cylinder and was well pleased with the results. Kept checking to see if the round ball was going to move forward and jamb the gun but didn't happen.

Accuracy was as good as the same load loaded directly into a regular cylinder and, it could be just be my perception seemed stouter that a cap and ball load.

Depending on who one listens to a round ball is a better game stopper that a conical, I'm not a hunter, were I would want to field try this.

When I hear "Gallery Load" I think, poof, low power, not this power house.

I ran the entire fifty with one bore swab at mid point.

Think it will be my standard load for the times I don't want to load as I go range secessions.

PS the 2.2 CC maybe a tad over or under 35 grains by volume, but it drops nicely with a Lee double disc set up. My primary concern was no air space.
 
It could well have seemed stouter due to the crimp it had to overcome.

As to a ball vs a conical it depends on the conical. The CW pointy conicals were pointy and we know that this allows the flesh to stretch thereby creating a much smaller than caliber wound. But a ball seems to create a slightly bigger wound channel compared to a RN as it’s a little more blunt. But compared to any sort of wide meplat bullet it will fall well behind as far as wound channel goes. Now a ball traveling faster than what an average cap n ball pistol can produce you may well get expansion that will create a nice wide wound channel.
 
I've been wanting to try this too. I have seen it mentioned a few places and it looks interesting. My usual load is 30 grains FFF with a felt wad and a 250 grain RFN. I don't normally crimp them as they never move under recoil. I shoot mine from a converted .44 caliber Navy. (The one in my avatar)

I hope to get out this weekend and shoot. I'll load up a few like you have and try them.
 
Elmer once wrote about a gallery load consisting of 250 gr round nose backed with black powder in the schofield cases. Out of a 3” bbl saa they wouldn’t penetrate a 3/4” pine floorboard. I don’t recall the exact charge but it wasn’t much. His barber used to practice with them. Inside his barber shop... those were different times indeed.
 
First we must remember we are talking black powder velocities. When you start pushing soft tipped spitzer bullet above 2000 fps you get different results. It might also be noted that a combination of the round ball and the conical, which gave the dangerous game hunter the best of both worlds. Note how although the minnie ball was rather pointed, the round ball prevailed, and then morphed into the round tipped sporting bullet, with the spitzer not really gaining ground until the advent of smokeless powder (and velocities) and jacketed bullet. A good example is the evolution of the 8mm Mauser cartridge and the .303 British cartridge.

Here is what was written when both the minnie and the round ball were around for sportsmen:

“It is found, that with any form [bullet tip] more pointed than a hemisphere, the shock given to an animal is much less, although the actual diameter, and consequently the striking area, of the ball be the same.

It is, moreover, found that the slightest obstruction of bone or sinew, or even muscle, meeting obliquely a pointed cone passing through an animal, is apt to turn it from its course, and frustrate the aim of the sportsman. The bones escape unbroken, and the ball [pointed bullet] merely makes an eccentric flesh wound, harmless at the time, although it may eventually cause the death of the animal. It was from observing constant instances of such wounds that I first began to doubt the advantages of the pointed form for sporting projectiles; I have seen such a ball [pointed bullet] strike a tiger between the eyes, and cut a groove over the top of his head, making its exit at the nape of the neck, with no other effect but that of temporarily stunning him. “ James Forsyth The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles.

“As I before stated, I do not approve of the sharp-pointed cone; it does not produce sufficient concussion, but enters the animal more like the thrust of a sword than the blow of a bullet; there is not sufficient shock; there is as much difference between the blow of a hammer and the thrust of a dagger, as the shock of the blunt bullet and the perforation of the sharp cone. Thus the sharp point strike in the wrong place, it produces no immediate effect – it is scarcely felt [by the game animal] ; but the stunning blow of the blunt bullet, even when wrongly placed will generally disable the animal.” S.W. Baker author of The Rifle and Hound in Ceylon

I also noted in reading an account of a Confederate sniper in the ACW, the same results when firing at soldiers. He much preferred the patched, round ball. Sorry, I don't have that reference.

LD
 
I suspect the early repeating rifles had an influence on bullet design, a sharply pointed bullet in a tube magazine could have some unpleasant results. The ever popular lever actions were limited until the advent of the poly tipped bullets.
 
You could drop that load down to 21 - 23 grs 3F with a corn meal filler and have a cheaper, lower recoil gallery load that was still a joy to shoot. Very popular in CAS.
 
whughett said:
I suspect the early repeating rifles had an influence on bullet design, a sharply pointed bullet in a tube magazine could have some unpleasant results. The ever popular lever actions were limited until the advent of the poly tipped bullets.
Click to expand...
And the reason for the popularity and lightning bolt reputation of the .30-30 around the turn of the century was mostly due to the wide flat pointed bullet traveling at 2000+ FPS. They expanded reliably and carried a great deal of energy compared to the Black Powder big bores of the time.
 
LRDGCO said:
You could drop that load down to 21 - 23 grs 3F with a corn meal filler and have a cheaper, lower recoil gallery load that was still a joy to shoot. Very popular in CAS.
Click to expand...

I do something similar in .44-40, loading it to approximate .44 Henry Flat rimfire ballistics:

  • 28 grains of 2Fg or 3Fg black powder
  • 0.5cc of cornmeal
  • 219 grain bullet cast from an Accurate Molds 43-215C mold
It's more tedious to load up a box but the difference in recoil between it and a full load is noticeable, and the brass is left cleaner.
 
My ROA shoots to the same poa with .457 round balls and 30 grains of fffg in thetoriginal cylinder as it does with a 452460 and seven and a half grains of Unique in the conversion cylinder.
 
woodnbow said:
And the reason for the popularity and lightning bolt reputation of the .30-30 around the turn of the century was mostly due to the wide flat pointed bullet traveling at 2000+ FPS. They expanded reliably and carried a great deal of energy compared to the Black Powder big bores of the time.
Click to expand...

Let us not neglect the rather "flat" trajectory of that round, compared to the black powder rifles of the time too. Remember also that as the .30-30 was in a lever action, not only impacting the big bore rifles, but competition from the .44-40 in a lever action, and the .38-55 also in lever. Quite a leap over those two very popular lever action cartridges. :thumbup:

LD
 
True, the modern characteristics of the thirty thirty and others... were pretty amazing to the rifleman of the turn of the century
 
PapaG said:
My ROA shoots to the same poa with .457 round balls and 30 grains of fffg in thetoriginal cylinder as it does with a 452460 and seven and a half grains of Unique in the conversion cylinder.
Click to expand...

All of my pistol shooting these days is done at 12 yards, a fixed target stand line here at a public South West Florida range. What looks good at that distance is not so good at 25 or beyond. I use a center of bullseye hold and let the groups fall as they may, LOL, pushing 80, I take what I can get. Arthritis in the shoulders have dictated a two handed hold with elbows supported on the chest. ;) But I shoot once a week here and twice a week back north in the Summer and Fall. Think I might stop when it comes to sitting and supporting the pistol on a block.:(
 
whughett said:
All of my pistol shooting these days is done at 12 yards, a fixed target stand line here at a public South West Florida range. What looks good at that distance is not so good at 25 or beyond. I use a center of bullseye hold and let the groups fall as they may, LOL, pushing 80, I take what I can get. Arthritis in the shoulders have dictated a two handed hold with elbows supported on the chest. ;) But I shoot once a week here and twice a week back north in the Summer and Fall. Think I might stop when it comes to sitting and supporting the pistol on a block.:(
Click to expand...
On of my best shooting partners passed a few years back, at 85 he’d go shooting any time I was up to take him. We shot mostly high powered rifles, including his M14 even though Parkinsons was kicking his ass. The last several years he struggled to maintain 12” groups at a hundred yards but like any good Marine, quit just wasn’t in his vocabulary. I hope I’m hanging in there at that age, like you are @whughett , and like Gibby... Semper Fi Mac!
 
35 grains 3Fg is far from a "gallery load". You are actually starting to approach the upper limit of modern .45 Colt. Most folks are doing well to cram 38 grains max into .45 Colt so you are getting close to a full load. I've experimented with cramming in 40 grains using a drop tube and compressing the heck out of the powder...it gets it in there but barely. And, it makes me wonder how much BP is blown out unburnt. I would think a load of around 12 grains plus corn meal would be more of a gallery load (i.e. the type of load some of you would shoot in your ventilated basement ;)).
 
My thoughts also as to "Gallery Load". It does eliminate those extra steps of filler and sizing/lubing bullets. Its as accurate as I can hold and satisfying to shoot, I'm not a fan of "low power" loads.
 
I would not refer to any of this thread info as "Gallery" (!)

I shoot a 5 1/2" 45colt, 1858 Conversion, loaded with 16gr 2ffg Olde Eynsford and a 38 special case of filler Cream-o-Wheat behind a 153gr EPP-UG bullet lubed with SPG. This load gives me 765fps, and is by NO means a "gallery" load!!

4gr of 4ffffg (22lr case full) in a 45-70 behind a .457 round ball is a "gallery" load.. and VERY fun!!!!!!
 
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I think all who have read/responded think "Gallery" is a misnomer. I'll continue to shoot it as .454 round balls are in my normal casting routine and therefor plentiful and I can run them off on the Lee Turret press quickly with out the need for the additional steps required with filler material, sizing /lubing bullets ect, ect. And the ROA prints them to POA. I'm not a fan of low power loads and I have reason to shoot them, black powder and lead is still way cheaper than a round of golf...……………..;)

I'll chronograph them later this summer and see what the velocity is compared to the same load in a cap cylinder.
 
I'd love to see the chrony results from .45 Colt with as much powder you can get into it under a round ball.
 
This thread got me curious so I just tried 40g of 2f OE black powder behind the little 155 EPPUG, out of the 5 1/2" Rem58, 45colt conversion over the Chrono...1205fps!!!! This bullet is basically a RoundBall with a lube groove. I just pan lube it with SPG. Accuracy of this high powered load is very poor.
The 16gr load is as precision as it could get from a Blackpowder loaded 45colt. I wonder how much powder I could get into a 45c case using the compression die?? ;-)
 
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